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Marcus Miller: America's AmBASSadoor


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Getting phone calls from South Africans thanking me for writing "Tutu" and hearing how much support and encouragement that song gave them when they were fighting against apartheid is a very special feeling.
—Marcus Miller
Marcus Miller is most often described as a jazz, funk, soul, fusion, and R&B bassist. As much as that is accurate, it is a description that falls well short of the mark. Miller is a high-end musical sponge who manages to incorporate today's cultures and rhythms into his compositions, layered within the framework of sound he has polished over the past four decades.

He is perhaps best known as a musician in connection with Miles Davis, David Sanborn, Luther Vandross, and Herbie Hancock. Within the industry, he is acclaimed and in high demand for his arranging, producing, and compositional skills. Over the years, Miller's substantial journey has led to genre-defying excellence in music and character defining excellence in life.

The same passion and enthusiasm he has for music is found in his concerns for humanity, communication, and education. The following is a recent dialogue that illuminates Miller's passion. It was a joyous conversation that touched on the past, the present, family, history, our world, and, of course, music.

All About Jazz: Just last night you were performing at the Hollywood Bowl with Herbie Hancock and the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra. I believe that it was a one-hundredth-anniversary celebration for the LA Philharmonic.

Marcus Miller: Exactly, the one-hundredth-anniversary of the LA Philharmonic. They had a few different artists performing with the orchestra. Katy Perry, John Williams, and Herbie Hancock among them. With Herbie, we did an orchestral version of "Rock It" with a rhythm section. It was pretty cool. You've been to the Hollywood Bowl(stated as an assumption, not a question).

AAJ: Yes I have. It's a special venue.

MM: Very cool, very nice. Then we are headed to Kuwait tomorrow to do two gigs with Herbie. Every once in a while Herbie will ask me to play a few gigs, and I love to do it. It's nice sometimes to just be the bassist and not have to worry about the whole leadership thing.

AAJ: I can understand that. The Kuwait shows will be more of a traditional quintet?

MM: Yes, that's right: guitarist Lionel Loueke, drummer Trevor Lawrence Jr. , and keyboardist/saxophonist Terrace Martin (in addition to Hancock and Miller).

AAJ: Do you find it somewhere between challenging and interesting to merge the set-in-stone arrangements of an orchestra with the improvisation and inventiveness of jazz?

MM: The secret is with the conductor. If you can have a relationship with him, and he understands how improvisation works, it really comes down to as simple as when we get to the letter D, have the orchestra stop playing, and we will let you know when it is time to start playing and resume with letter D on the charts. So we can open up a window, is what I call it, to improvise and do our thing. And then we give them a cue they can come back in with the orchestrated set arrangements. So, it's really having a series of windows and opportunities to let the band improvise before the orchestra continues. It's really the same as with a big band. Big bands play arrangements but there is always an area for a solo. Sometimes the big band will come in with a little lift underneath the guy's solo. But yeah with an orchestra that is the first thing you have to figure out. It doesn't take long because when you are at your first rehearsal you will have your first train wreck. You take a break and figure out how to resolve the issue. It's not as difficult as before because a lot of the orchestra members now have a familiarity with jazz. Before, there were some pretty tall walls between the two disciplines. Now you have guys coming over and saying that they really like what you did with this or that.

AAJ: I've had the pleasure of seeing and hearing you play live several times. That includes at least three dynamic shows well into the past with David Sanborn, Hiram Bullock, and Omar Hakim. Firstly, if you could comment on your innate chemistry with Sanborn, and also is it true that you and Hakim went to high school together?

MM: Yes, well, I'll answer the second part first. Omar and I met in high school. We went to La Guardia school at the time. La Guardia High School of Music & Art and Performing Arts was split into two campuses. One was for musicians and dancers, and the other for musicians and artists. Omar and I both went to the one for musicians and artists. Our campus was uptown in Harlem. Since then they have consolidated the two and they are at Lincoln Center. Omar was an amazing drummer even back in high school. None of us could believe how good he was, and I basically just attached to him. He introduced me to a whole set of talented musicians that really helped my development.

AAJ: That would be back when you all were playing in your basements?

MM: Yeah man, we had a group called Harlem River Drive that was pretty cool. We both did a lot of playing and developing together. Then I was playing with Mike Mainieri. You know that guy, Mike Mainieri?

AAJ: Yes, plays the vibes.

MM: Yes, and he was getting ready to go to Japan and play with a guitarist named Kazumi Watanabe. He asked me to recommend a drummer. I told him that he needed to hire my boy Omar. He said that he didn't have a lot time for auditions and asked me if I was sure. Mike ended up loving Omar. They played together for a while. That led to Omar becoming part of Weather Report. So then I had a lot of connections of my own, and we were able to help each other with our careers. In terms of David Sanborn, coming from New York the guys I grew up with, you were judged by how complete of a musician you were. You really had to put in your time. You had to be deep into the song. The straight-ahead jazz, the Latin, the Caribbean, etc. If you were limited to one or the other, it was kind of a mark against you. One of those categories is that you need to know how to make pop music with some depth to it. For us, it was really the complete wing. If you could sneak some really interesting harmony into a song that appealed to a lot of people, like Duke Ellington, like Stevie Wonder, that was the ultimate. So for me working with Sanborn I took that kind of mentality to it. So, it was going to be funky and all that, but if you wanted to look deeper into the music there were going to be some interesting things that could appeal to you on a deeper level. So, Sanborn was the perfect voice to create that kind of sound. In the eighties, I had access to three of the most incredible voices of that era. I'm talking about Miles Davis, David Sanborn, and Luther Vandross. All three of them were very influential with their instruments. Of course, by instrument I mean Luther with his voice, Miles with his trumpet, and David with his sax. As a composer, it was an incredible period. Just to be able to write something and know that the guy that was going to be interpreting the melody was a genius.

AAJ: I know that your father was a pianist. What I didn't know until recently is that you are related to the great Wynton Kelly. Tell us about being raised in such a rich musical environment.

MM: My dad's dad, my grandfather, was a minister in the church that Marcus Garvey started called the African Orthodox Episcopal Church. He was also a pianist from a Trinidadian heritage. So he played church music and he played calypso. My dad played the pipe organ. That was his weekend gig. During the week he drove the F train in New York. On the weekends, he played church services, weddings, and that sort of thing. He was incredible on the pipe organ with the bass pedals, the drawbars, and just pulling out the stops. His cousin was Wynton Kelly. As they grew up, their job was to alternate Sundays in my grandfather's church. My dad would play one Sunday and Wynton the next. Wynton had such a remarkable ear that he would play the whole church service by ear. He would just memorize the whole thing. Eventually Wynton started missing his Sundays because he started getting gigs when he was about fourteen years old. He was working pretty steady with the Dizzy Gillespie Big Band and with Dinah Washington. Eventually, he started playing with Miles Davis and Wes Montgomery. So, everyone was, of course, very proud of him. But also all our aunts sang and there was just music all around. I didn't even realize, to be honest with you, that it was a musical family because I wasn't exposed to anyone else's family.

AAJ: Yes, I can understand that. It was just the norm for you.

MM: Exactly. We all got together on the weekends and sang and played for each other. My first big performance was on the clarinet before the family. And it was a big deal. So, it was just a part of our life. You realize how beautiful it was in retrospect. And then for me, when I was about ten years old, I started hearing groups like the Jackson Five. Kids my age, that were already professionals, and I said I would love to do that, I love music anyways. But I didn't know it could be so cool!

AAJ: Who were the bass players that you listened to at an early age that inspired you?

MM: Well, first I thought that Jermaine Jackson, Michael's brother, was the baddest fourteen-year-old bassist on the face of the planet because of all those bass lines.

AAJ: I suppose until you realized it wasn't really him.

MM: Yeah it wasn't really him. But I still give Jermaine a lot of credit because playing live it was him, and he had to do those steps and sing his part. But it was James Jamerson on those records. Sometimes it was Wilton Felder. You know that name?

AAJ: Yes, my first thought is of him playing sax with The Crusaders.

MM: Right, and he was also a great bassist, and he would do sessions for Motown. What I've heard is that Wilton is playing on some of those Jackson Five sessions. The Motown bass sound was really the thing in the late sixties into the early seventies. So I started playing bass with that influence. Then, all the funk bands like Kool & The Gang, and Mandrill, and the Issac Hayes bass lines, and about a million others came along. It was the golden era of bass lines in soul music. That's what drew me to it. Then we heard Larry Graham with his plucking style, and, oh man!

AAJ: Graham Central Station.

MM: Yes exactly, Graham Central Station. That sound was dynamic. The Motown sound was smooth, rhythmic, and kind of bubbly. Graham's stuff was just so percussive, and for a young musician, I was, oh man, I got to get some of that. Everyone in my neighborhood was really into that. After that, Stanley Clarke took the bass in another direction. That was exciting. Then Jaco Pastorius came around, and I got really turned onto that and started playing a lot of fretless bass. Anthony Jackson was an influence, as was Paul Jackson of the Headhunters. I kept my ears wide open. Then one day, I'm a junior in high school, and Omar says that it's time for us to stop listening to people. And I said, "Now why would we ever want to do that?" He said that it was time for us to find our own voice. It was the first time I was introduced to the idea of trying to find your own thing. So, I didn't do it right there in my junior year, but I eventually weaned myself from listening to my heroes. That takes a while to trust yourself to find something on your own.

AAJ: I'm sure it would. But at least you had that concept in your head at an early age.

MM: Lenny White was from Jamaica, Queens where we grew up, and I asked him how do you do it, how do you find your own thing? And Lenny said that you just play and stay true to the music, and you will find your way to it. That sounded like some Yoda, Karate Kid kind of thing (Marcus and I both laughed out loud at this point). It was just such an obscure thing to say. But, it turned out to be absolutely true. I started focusing on whatever I was playing and simply making the music sound good or sound better. Eventually I started hearing things on the playback after we had recorded a song, and, oh wow, I think I might have a little thing going on here. It kind of solidified on my first session with Miles to be honest with you. You realize that, "Hey, that sounds like me." You find a couple of phrases that might sound like you, and it's like a small flicker, and you started blowing on it.

AAJ: That moment that it hits you that this is me, my sound, I'm not covering someone else's groove.

MM: That's exactly it, man. That is just what I'm saying. You find something inside yourself that you can bring forward. It's a real honest way to make music. Once I had a little thing going I just kept trying to develop it.

AAJ: You have a spirited new record out. What was the concept and approach going into Laid Black?

MM: Well, I did a record before Laid Black called Afrodeezia.

AAJ: Outstanding record.

MM: Thank you. I had just been named as a spokesperson for UNESCO (United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization). They have an initiative called the Slave Route Project. It is about bringing awareness to the history of slavery and how it has affected the world. I decided to make an album that reflected that story. On Afrodeezia, I was jamming with cats from West Africa, North Africa, Brazil, and the Caribbean. I was real happy with the way it turned out. So, I figured for this next album I wanted to bring it back home. I wanted to use some urban contemporary sounds and see how I could manipulate them into what I do on Laid Black. It's kind of the continuation of the story. That was the history and here we are now. You hear some trap influences, some funk, some rap, but it's all through my filters. I'm very happy with it, and it's doing very well. When we play live in America, some of the African things from Afrodeezia, I would have to stop and educate people. So, I would do more talking and explaining that this is what we are doing, and this what this is all about. On Laid Black, not so much of that is necessary. Everybody understands it. Though we are not playing just from Laid Black. It's a combination of the old and the new, so it's all very cool.

AAJ: It is very cool that you are able to take today's sounds that represent this time in our history, integrate them with your signature jazz and funk sound, and move it forward.

MM: I think it is important to do that. You know in terms of hip-hop, for example, I have been incorporating that into my music since about 1995. But that genre has evolved a lot since then. So it's important to revisit all of that and show people how that can work in an improvisational framework. It's cool. It's a nice challenge.

AAJ: You've been involved with many jazz cruises over the past several years. I see that there are a couple that will launch in the near future. What's the skinny on those?

MM: Yeah man, well we have the Smooth Jazz Cruise. Which is exactly what it sounds like. It has become ridiculously popular. Wayman Tisdale, do you remember him?

AAJ: NBA basketball player that became a musician.

MM: Exactly, he was the host of the Smooth Jazz Cruise. He just had this incredible personality and was more like an R&B instrumental musician. He was great at that, and was just perfect as the host. Unfortunately, Wayman passed away about ten years ago now. Can't believe it's been that long. Anyways, Michael Lazaroff, the director of the cruise, said that he would love for me to step in, even though smooth jazz is a limited part of my musical vocabulary. He wanted my ability to communicate with people. So, I did. The people that are digging the smooth jazz are like my aunts and uncles. So, it's nice to go out and hang with them in January and maybe open them up to some other things.

AAJ: Try to stretch and widen people's ears a bit.

MM: There you go. Maybe go a bit beyond the smooth jazz a bit. But then Michael wanted to get into something else also and the idea for the Blue Note Cruise came along. It's more progressive, you know, they used to call it contemporary jazz. To be honest with you, the biggest problem with all of this is just finding labels that match. The question people ask is, "What's the difference between smooth jazz and contemporary jazz?" What you end up doing is simply naming the artists. For the Blue Note Cruise we are talking about Pat Metheny, Chick Corea, Robert Glasper, Wynton Marsalis, and like that.

AAJ: Music that has more depth to it.

MM: Yes, that's more involved musically. Michael has said something interesting. That is, that in the whole world of jazz, that you have ten percent straight ahead jazz on the left and ten percent smooth jazz on the right. That other eighty percent is contemporary jazz, which can be inclusive, progressive, and traditional at the same time. It's a very big middle, the whole gamut in between. When we play around the world, there are so many artists that people want to hear ranging from Cecile McLorin Salvant to Herbie Hancock. Music that includes now, but also references the past and the history of jazz. We are really excited about all these cruises, but the one we are focused on now and making sure people know about, is the Blue Note At Sea Cruise.

AAJ: And when does that set sail?

MM: January 26th, 2019. January 26th through February 2nd.

AAJ: The Blue Note at Sea Cruise is on my bucket list.

MM: That's awesome because you know something you would really appreciate are the collaborative projects that come out of these cruises. It's cool for the audience because they get to be in the midst of these artists that they really love. But it is also very cool for the musicians to be on a cruise chilling out in the presence of each other, rather than just running into each other at the airport or in a hotel lobby. To be able to spend some time talking and realizing what you have in common. Then, the next thing you know, someone is sitting in with your band or vice versa. The audience gets to see some very special moments on a cruise that you wouldn't normally see. Everybody just gets real comfortable with each other.

AAJ: Somehow with everything else going on you manage to do not one, but two weekly radio shows. What can you tell us about those?

MM: One is here in the States. It's called Miller Time, and is on Sirius XM. It comes on at 6pm on the east coast, 3pm out here in the west. Mark Ruffin is the producer for Real Jazz on Sirius XM. He had the idea for this show. I'm always running my mouth about music and connecting with people so he told me that I should do a show. But they are segmented in such a strict manner as in Watercolors on one channel and Real Jazz on another, etc., and I am more of a 360-degree musician. Mark just said, okay then, just go ahead and do that. I'll give you a few hours on Sundays and you do want you want. It's great because I have free rein. My thing is to really get into it for people who love jazz, but also for people who are interested. My one knock on jazz is that the people who love jazz also love the fact that it's an inside thing. It's like joining the Lakers and asking Kobe Bryant how do I get my shot. And he would be like, I'm not telling you, you got to figure that out on your own. So, it really doesn't work to tell someone who says they don't understand jazz to go figure it out on their own. So, I try to break it down in the same way Kenny Washington did for me. I also went to high school with Kenny, and you know he went on to play drums for Betty Carter, Bill Charlap, and a bunch of others.

AAJ: That's quite a high school.

MM: Exactly. He gave me my first education in jazz. Kenny was so into it, and so enthusiastic about it, that you couldn't help but to get drawn in. For me, that's how I feel about doing Miller Time. I'll stop the record in the middle of a song while we are on the air and say, "Wait a minute. I don't think you heard what he just played. Let me back that up and play it for you again." And I will explain it, and talk about the relationships between the musicians. Another thing I like to do is to show people the connection between the pop world and jazz. For example, say this is 1952, and the biggest Broadway play at the time has someone like Ethel Merman singing on the original Broadway soundtrack. Now let me show you what Miles Davis did with this tune. Or, here's a song that Julie Andrews sang, "My Favorite Things." Let me show you what John Coltrane did with it. It opens up the door for a lot of people. It also can remind jazz musicians that these walls between pop music and jazz are artificial. They never really actually existed. All those jazz standards that you learn that you might think are from some special jazz domain are all just pop songs with lyrics that your grandparents knew the words to. It's not like the show is educational in a boring way. I'm just having fun with it. It works really well. Then I do pretty much the same thing for Jazz FM in the UK. For a while I was doing one in French for TSF Jazz in Paris. But it just got to be too much. But I might go back and do something with that down the road. The one in the UK is based in London and called Transatlantic Jazz. It is on Jazz FM at 6pm on Wednesday nights. It focuses more on showcasing new releases coming out of America to the British audience.

AAJ: Earlier you mentioned your involvement with UNESCO. How would you define your role as an Artist for Peace?

MM: Throughout your life there are going to be different reasons why you play music. The first thing really is just to experience that feeling of being able to make a sound with a musical instrument. To have that sound fill a hall or a room is just an incredible thing. Maybe the next thing is that intoxicating effect you can have on other people with the sounds you are able to make. As a teenager there is the social acceptance, hanging out with your friends, and just being in the band. It's just a cool thing. For me as you grow it is really the effect on others that you have inspired around the world that makes a difference. Getting a couple of phone calls from South Africans thanking me for writing "Tutu" and hearing how much support and encouragement that song gave them when they were fighting against apartheid is a very special feeling. If I am in the autograph line after having done a concert and someone introduces you to their eight-year old son, Marcus, it really hits you that this is way bigger than just putting some tunes on a cd. It makes you take things a bit more seriously. Not so much though that you don't keep in mind that what you are doing is bringing people joy and is a release from whatever it is that they are dealing with in life. It does make you realize that the music can be used as a tool. Herbie Hancock was named an Artist for Peace for UNESCO eight years ago. He introduced me to everyone. A couple of years later they asked me to do that as well. They got me involved with the Slave Route Project, that we talked about earlier. It's about how it affected world history socially, culturally, and musically. We talked about how that led to the creation of the Afrodeezia record. But it also gives me a platform to after a gig, go by a school in Russia, or Brazil, or Africa and hang out with the kids. I have an opportunity to present a face of America that maybe they haven't been exposed to yet. So later maybe you are an eighteen-year old Russian kid and somebody is saying this or that about America the kid can say that when he was eight years old that an American came to his school and that he was very cool and we had a great time. So music can be a tool to just create communication. Sometimes I think they should send us out there first, before the ambassadors, and let us create some good vibes before you come in and talk about what you need to talk about.

AAJ: That has to be a real special feeling to be able to do that.

MM: It's a thrill for sure and not so much with words. Words are probably our most incredible invention as human beings. But there is a limit to what words can do. Music sometimes can fill that gap. You can play music that everyone can relate to emotionally, particularly with instrumental music. Everyone is moving together and feeling the rhythms. It sounds like a cliché but music is the universal language. The young musicians in my band see it and feel it when we are on stage. It's a very real connection. We were in Kazakhstan just a few months ago and they knew every song. They were so excited and knew every detail to the music. It's hard really to even put it into words the connection you are making at that time.

AAJ: How did film scoring enter the picture?

MM: In the late eighties Reginald Hudlin reached out to me. He was fresh out of film school. His senior thesis for film school was a movie short. A new movie house called New Line Cinema had committed to making it in to a full-length feature film. I had done Siesta with Miles, but that was a cd. They used the music in the movie, but it wasn't written as a score. I had never done that before and was hesitant. But Reginald said that he loved what I had done with some other artists and that he really wanted me to do it. So he sent me the film on a video cassette. Then it came down to figuring it out with a hit and miss process. So I wrote what I thought was some pretty cool stuff for some different scenes and Reginald came over to the studio to check it out. He told me that what I had written for one scene in particular was incredible but that there was just one problem. He couldn't hear what any of the actors were saying! I had written music that was stepping on everyone's lines. So that was my first lesson in film scoring. So I figured it out and started getting more calls for film scoring. Next I did the score for a movie that did pretty well called House Party and then went on to do Eddie Murphy's Boomerang. I really got into it and it just keeps going. The most recent project was a movie about Thurgood Marshall that came out a few months ago. It's called Marshall and stars Chadwick Boseman. It's kind of like my day gig. I do films when I am not on the road.

AAJ: Your first and for a time primary instrument was the clarinet. In what ways has that proven to be advantageous to your musical career?

MM: The first advantage of playing the clarinet was when I started playing sessions on the bass. After reading clarinet music like Stravinsky and Charles Ives the bass lines weren't difficult to read. Some of those clarinet parts can get really intricate. So it really helped me as a studio musician when I was sitting down in front of new charts every day. It also helped me in terms of having a melodic sense in terms of composition. Also with my dad being a pianist I have been taking piano lessons since I was five years old. In terms of arranging and composing it is really all about the piano. With the bass you only have one line. With the clarinet you have the melodic line. But with the piano you have bass, harmony, rhythm, and melody. You have all the elements right there.

AAJ: How did it come about that you started playing the bass clarinet?

MM: I was twenty-four, maybe twenty-five years old and I hadn't played the clarinet in some time. I had stopped playing when I left college because I was focusing on the bass. I mentioned to my wife that every time I saw treble clef music sheet music that I could feel my fingers moving to the clarinet fingerings. That this thing is still inside of me, and it's a shame to not use it for anything. But I wasn't so sure about the clarinet working within the music I was doing then. I was writing music for Miles and David Sanborn at that time. Then I thought maybe a bass clarinet would work. I had heard that they were hard to play but thought maybe I would get one someday. It was really just idle talk at the time. Well, that Christmas under the tree, my wife got together with my mom and they had located a bass clarinet from my old junior high school. It was under the tree.

AAJ: Man, how sweet is that.

MM: It was awesome. Well the sound I was making out of it wasn't so awesome to start with. It took a while to figure that thing out. So I was in the studio and Miles and I were working on something. Now, as you certainly know, Miles solos were like mini compositions in themselves. There was this one thing that he played that was so beautifully constructed, even though he improvised it, that I got the bass clarinet out and I doubled it. I played his solo two octaves below him. He heard it and he flipped out. Miles said that I had really found something there. That was a lot of encouragement right there coming from Miles Davis. So I started using it slowly, not trying to be too adventurous. Not trying to be Eric Dolphy, understand. Just playing some beautiful melodies and using it for effect and I just got really into it. It's a really nice change of pace during my shows. After an hour of the amplified charge of the electric bass it's nice to be able to change the color to the wooden naturally acoustic sound of the bass clarinet. It's weird but for so much of my life I was walking around with this long rectangular Fender bass case in one hand and this little tiny clarinet in the other hand. It feels cool to continue that and bring that into my life now. I dig it.

AAJ: We all do. I just have to ask about Miles Davis from a historical perspective. It had to have been mind blowing to get a call from Miles when you were only about twenty years old.

MM: It was mind blowing for sure. I was only twenty-one years old at the time. And there was an added element to this. Miles had been in retirement for like five years. He had just disappeared and nobody knew where he was or even if he was still alive. Then somebody says that Miles was at the club last night. He was standing right next to me and I didn't even see him. I was focused on playing. It was very mysterious. In fact just a couple of months ago someone sent me a photograph of Miles standing right next to me that night. Somehow I just didn't see him. Anyways, Miles decides to make his comeback and the first person he calls is Dave Liebman, who had been playing sax with him in the seventies. This was now about 1980. He asked him to find him a young saxophonist and Dave recommended Bill Evans. Obviously, not Bill Evans the pianist, the young saxophonist. Bill was jamming with Miles for a while and Miles told him he wanted a young funky guy on the bass. That's where I came in on Bill's recommendation. I didn't know any of this was going on at the time. I was at a recording session and the receptionist at the studio handed me a note that said call Miles. So I called him and he said to come right over to Columbia Studios. So before I had a chance to even digest it all I'm sitting in the studio with Bill Evans, Al Foster, Barry Finnerty, Sammy Figueroa, and Miles. It was like that in New York at the time. A lot of opportunities and you were just hustling to get from one gig to another, up one flight of stairs and down another to keep laying down bass tracks for one band or another. Matter of fact, Bob James calls and wants me to overdub the bass for a record he's doing. I told him I couldn't because I was busy with Miles. We were on the second floor at Columbia. Turns out Bob books time for the fourth floor and wants me to run up and plug in my bass to record a track whenever Miles takes a break. I was taking a chance because if Miles was ready to go and I'm up on the wrong floor that's not gong to cut it. But we were all hustlers back then. You hardly ever said no. You wanted the work. Bob was cool. He understood my situation and would get me in and out pretty quickly.

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