Sharel Cassity: In the Spirit

Even on an old familiar tune like Charlie Chaplin's "Smile" (1936), it is clear from note one that Sharel Cassity is a child of Bird, an altoist in the modernist tradition of Charlie Parker. Her first influence was actually her biological father, an organist, with whom she shared the stage in New Orleans at age 11, but Cassity made the trek from central Oklahoma to the Big Apple in 2000 and remained there until 2017, earning an undergraduate degree from The New School in 2005 and a master's from Juilliard in 2007.

She caught a big break in 2008, when she was asked to join the saxophone section of the Dizzy Gillespie All-Star Big Band, performing alongside trumpeter Roy Hargrove, saxophonists James Moody (who gave her the nickname "Sectionette"), Jimmy Heath and Antonio Hart, and a rhythm section of bassist John Lee, pianist Cyrus Chestnut and drummer Lewis Nash. Cassity has appeared with the likes of Wynton Marsalis, Herbie Hancock, Gary Bartz and Dee Dee Bridgewater on the jazz side, along with such luminaries in other realms as Aretha Franklin, Natalie Merchant, Rubén Blades, Trisha Yearwood and DJ Logic. Her name is in the Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame and her face has graced the cover of Downbeat.

For Gratitude, her 2025 release on Sunnyside Records, she called on pals from the Dizzy band: Lee to co-produce, Chestnut at the piano, Nash at the drums, Christian McBride rounding things out on bass. The program mainly features her own compositions (she has an ASCAP Young Jazz Composer award on her shelf). The vibe is convivial and the playing is superb all around, including guest appearances by trombonist Michael Dease and trumpeter Terell Stafford. She describes the effort as "a family project," an expression of the gratitude she feels to those who joined her in the studio and the many friends and mentors she has met along the way.

Cassity is now based in Chicago, serving on the faculties of DePaul University and Elgin Community College during the week, hitting the road for artist residencies and concerts on weekends, raising a son. She spoke with AAJ from her teaching studio, in a conversation that began with the Gratitude album and ranged into her professional path, her approaches to teaching and learning, changing aesthetics in jazz and juggling the jazz life. Below is an edited excerpt.

Smile and Keep Steppin'

All About Jazz: First, I have to say that I adore your version of "Smile" on Gratitude. What made you decide to include it?

Sharel Cassity: The time leading up to this album—and the compositions on it—was a big shift in life for me. And I was doing an artist residency at Purdue—no, not Purdue, a university somewhere—and I was warming up. I just started playing with the melody of "Smile," playing a cappella. I came up with this bass line—we play it live, it's not the same on the album. But I started playing this tune and I did a reharm of it, and I just really loved the song. I've always related to the sentiment, throughout everything.

My first seven or eight years in New York were pretty rough, and I had a pretty wild childhood. Through it all, what pulled me through was my connection to the instrument and to music and keeping a positive outlook about things, looking on the bright side. No matter how bad it is, being able to say, "Well, let's smile and keep steppin.'" I avoided it for a long time, though, because of my years in New York, where—10 or 15 years ago—women were saying "don't tell me to smile" to men on the street and all this. It's annoying, but, at the end of the day, smiling can lift you up.

AAJ: Yeah. Well, it really sets a tone for the album. I was just listening to Manhattan Romance (Venus Records, 2014), because the band is similar, but that's such a different album, the vibe is so different. That's, what, 11 years ago. And, if you were to characterize—from a listener's perspective—the difference, one thing is that you seem happier. Is that a fair assessment?

SC: Very fair. I feel like with this album I've reached a place where I don't need all of the other stuff, the angst and the hardship. I don't need to write music from that perspective anymore. Not to say that everything's perfect, there's always things, but I'm at a point in my life where I'm just accepting who I am and where I am. And looking at all the people who really helped bring me up and make me into who I am. John Lee is a big part of my musical history. He put me in the Dizzy Gillespie All-Star Band, where I met all of these people and worked with them for years. And he was the engineer and the producer, with me, and so it was sort of a family project. And in the space I'm at now, I want to make music that makes me happy, that grooves, that comes out of the things that attracted me to playing in the first place.

Coming Out of the Tradition

AAJ: And, speaking of coming out of those things, the thousands of transcriptions you've made... You've mentioned the shelves and shelves of folders of transcriptions.

SC: I guess I'm a nerd, right?

AAJ: To me, it feels like respect. You've walked many miles in so many wonderful pairs of shoes, and it's all coming out of you when you play, like Abbey Lincoln said in "People in Me." All the people you're talking about and the gratitude you're expressing, it's in the music. You hear it, it's palpable.

SC: It makes me feel so good that you hear that. And I know that a lot of serious jazz musicians hear that, and jazz listeners. But, for me, that has always been my focus, to really come out of the lineage and the history of jazz and create something that is relevant and is myself, out of that. And I feel that, now, I'm in a place where I transcribe, but not in the same way. I finally said, "I've followed music my whole life and I've studied music my whole life. And I'm going to keep studying it, but it's time for the music to be what it is. It's time for the music to follow me, and I live my life.

So there's a shift in my outlook from where I was with the past albums. Even with the Venus album that you mentioned—it's a similar band—it was supposed to be this kind of project. They wanted a very standards-friendly happy album, but that's not really where I was at that moment, as an artist. So it sounds different. With this, it was so easy. I just walked in and—you know—with this rhythm section, [laughs] it's a luxury. It was just so easy to play, and we're all on the same page. It was really a wonderful experience.

AAJ: Right. So you've earned your title of... are you "Section" now, or are you still called "Sectionette?"

SC: (laughs) Sectionette.

AAJ: Yeah, OK. Well—with apologies to Moody—maybe we can drop the "ette" and make it just "Section" at some point?

SC: Section. I like that.

Women in the Section

AAJ: This reminds me of a little, I would call it a public-service announcement you made, directed toward women in jazz (Kennedy Center, 2016). It was nice, short. Among other things, you said, "We need all the women we can get in the music... " Is that something you still believe?

SC: It is. The percentage of women, as opposed to men, is still much less. And I don't see a reason for it. Music is for everybody, music is in the air. I think that—how to say it—there are still certain regimes in place that dictate who becomes a musician and who doesn't. If you'll notice, a lot of the women who have become successful in jazz had a family member who played jazz. Or someone who was a musician or an artist, who sort of guided them.

I know from myself... I started playing jazz with my dad when I was very young. He lived in New Orleans for 10 years, played in New Orleans. I grew up playing with him and listening to all kinds of music. And so, when I walked into a jam session for the first time, in my mind I was a musician. Not a woman musician, not a female musician, just a musician. And I think that is something we need to promote more and encourage the young women, whether or not they have music in their families, encourage them to see that this is something that they can do.

Juilliard Jazz

AAJ: Yes. So as a slight tangent, now that you've mentioned New Orleans, the birthplace, I recall your having mentioned that one of the reasons you wanted to go to Juilliard is that you felt there were some gaps in your appreciation of, understandings, experience with earlier forms of jazz, and that you were happy that the Juilliard program had that, because of Wynton Marsalis. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

SC: Right. Well, growing up with my dad, he really liked standards. And he could do them in a New Orleans groove, which I loved—second line groove. But we played standards, and we would even play things like "Blue Rondo a la Turk," different meters. We kind of stayed in American standards and bebop, maybe into the '50s, right? And blues. And so my history was largely bebop.

So when I went to Juilliard I felt that, for me, to really understand the root of the music and know where I'm coming out of and why it matters and where I fit, I needed to start from the beginning.

AAJ: Wynton has been criticized by some as tapping too heavily on the early jazz vein. What do you think of that? Do you feel that his curriculum has enriched you?

SC: It has. I now understand the things that I've transcribed that came later a lot more. For instance, if I was transcribing something that Kenny Garrett played... Kenny Garrett knows where it came from, he knows who played it first, who played it next and why. And what was going on in America at that time. Why do we play jazz? Why does the blues sound like the blues? What cultures influenced it? We're all part of that melting pot, but without the full picture, it's like learning a language without part of the alphabet, part of the vocabulary. It doesn't work. I just wanted to be informed and I was happy that I got that when I went there.

The thing about Wynton is that people want to say that he just plays the early jazz, and that's what he built Lincoln Center on. But, if you look at it, at the time that he did that, early jazz was all but forgotten. It was not lifted up. We didn't have an Essentially Ellington competition for high schoolers. It needed that. And if you look at Wynton's career, him and Branford (Marsalis) are so impressive because they know so much music, all the eras of jazz and so much classical and world music. They've studied a lot. And if you look at Wynton's career, you can't look at Black Codes from the Underground (Columbia, 1985) and then hate on him for doing early jazz at Jazz at Lincoln Center. What he contributed in that era was phenomenal, groundbreaking. So I would ask anyone that questions him about that to question themselves. You know, "What's needed?"

I think a lot of people are wondering where jazz is right now. And with this album, it's been interesting, because some people get it, and some people really don't. They want to hear something edgy and modern and kind of rule-breaking. And, for me, I just wanted a very listenable album that a lot of people would enjoy, and that is honest.

AAJ: It's all of those things. And, responding as a listener, I'm reminded of what is probably still written on subway walls, "Bird lives." [laughs]

SC: Right.

AAJ: And that brings me to another question. I sort of grew up with Phil Woods, you know, in his little burg. And so I naturally hear Phil in there, too. It's just such a pleasure. And you're not afraid, for example...in which one of the pieces by your talented husband (pianist Richard Johnson)?

SC: "Stick Up," the rhythm changes?

AAJ: Yes. You just go all the way with a long well-known quote. You don't seem to feel you have to mangle it or make it hipper than it is. You just play it. It's so joyful. And as someone who loves this music, it made me feel Phil's presence. It just made me happy. It's the music and its history coming out, and you are contributing to it in your own way.

Hearing Tenor And Singing

AAJ: That brings me to another question. Your sound seems very much your own. That's one thing that's noticeable on Manhattan Romance, "Funny Valentine" in particular. OK, I know that you've listened to many people doing "Funny Valentine." It's not like "Historia de un Amor" or "Besame Mucho," where there are not that many opportunities to hear what other jazz people have to say on it. But your voice on "Funny Valentine... " Were you playing tenor, or am I imagining that?

SC: Alto.

AAJ: It's something about your articulation, your vibrato... Do you know what I'm talking about?

SC: I do. It's funny that you said tenor because I'm a closet tenor. I've always approached the alto from a tenor standpoint. I hear tenor. Some teachers have hated it, and some teachers have loved it. Gary Bartz has said the same thing, and he's one of my heroes. My sound, for one reason or another, has always been my guiding light. For better or for worse I've just always heard this sound and been able to create. It's changed throughout the years somewhat, but when I play, I'm singing.

First and foremost, especially if it's a ballad like "Funny Valentine," I'm thinking of the lyrics or I'm thinking of the meaning of what I'm playing. The riff that you were mentioning before is a piece of jazz language that the whole band knows, it has a lot of meaning for us. We play it on the stand night after night in the Dizzy band. It's just got a lot of historical meaning. And some phrases have literal meaning, and I'm always trying to create that in the most vocal way possible. So when I'm playing, I'm really trying to get the most honest sound, the purest thing that I hear produced, and to sing through the tone.

AAJ: And thinking about how much you're influenced by tenor, I can also maybe hear some Lester that I wasn't looking for.

SC: I'm a huge Lester, Trane and Wayne fan. (Lester Young, John Coltrane and Wayne Shorter)

AAJ: That's a good trinity.

SC: And Sonny Rollins. (laughs)

AAJ: You don't have to be a tenor player to want to emulate those guys. You could be a singer, you could be a French horn player. (laughs)

SC: That's right.

AAJ: Yeah, well you can really hear your sound on "Funny Valentine," in particular, because it's so slowed-down, glacial. You took it at a really slow tempo and you can really hear all the inflections.

Feminine Aesthetics

AAJ: Are there some transcriptions on your shelves of jazz women?

SC: Not solo transcriptions. I have transcribed, played and recorded compositions by Mary Lou Williams, Renee Rosnes, Ingrid Jensen and Geri Allen though, and really enjoy checking out Melissa Aldana.

AAJ: OK, so composers more than improvisers?

SC: Yep.

AAJ: Maybe we've already covered this enough, but I've heard Terri Lyne Carrington and others speak about how we haven't really yet felt the influence of a feminine aesthetic in jazz. We haven't had a chance to hear it. She talks about her own playing in terms of always "taking no prisoners," that that is the way she learned, but that now she doesn't always feel the need to be forceful and bombastic all the time, that she's looking for some different kind of aesthetic. In a panel at Jazz at Lincoln Center JALC Jazz Congress 2025, she remarked that "the sonic landscape of jazz has had a lot of masculinity" and that now may be a time to "start trying to hear other possibilities." What do you think of that?

SC: It's interesting. I'm finding myself in a similar place, just in life, musically. But I don't think it's feminine or masculine. I think we put these labels on things. When you think of jazz and music, you know, it has fury and it has tenderness and it has soulfulness and meaningfulness and none of those things are exclusive to any gender. As a mother, I've realized... It's really stretched the ends of the spectrum for me. I can have so much anger and so much joy, and I think that's a human thing.

I've had male musicians come up and tell me, "I can hear your vulnerability because you're a woman," things like that. And I'm the type who will take something like that and question it, say "What does that mean? Why would they say that? And should I keep it or not? Is it a good thing? Can I learn from it, or should I throw it over my shoulder?" That comment made me think in particular because they're associating that with a feminine quality. But if a female plays really tough, is she playing like a man?

AAJ: People say that, too.

SC: Yeah, I used to hear that all the time, "You play like a man." And I didn't think anything of it.

AAJ: It's a compliment.

SC: It's a compliment but hey, women can be the most fierce of everyone sometimes. And then you think about what jazz requires. It requires listening, it requires compassion, working together, acceptance of someone else and wherever they're at. And then it requires either turning up the heat or being very delicate at other times. And expressive. And so, for me, if that doesn't define a woman, I don't know what does. But also, I don't think those are just feminine traits, as has been proven through the history.

AAJ: But you don't feel a lack of a feminine aesthetic, that it's all part of the existing ball of wax?

SC: I think it's been there. If you imagine that Miles (Davis) was a woman this whole time, people would say the aesthetic is feminine, because it's softer and more reserved. I don't think it's missing. I think jazz reflects society and it depends on the era. I think we came through an era of more expressiveness in playing, from the late '90s through to about 2010, and then it starts to change. Jazz, reflecting society, is very polarized right now. I think that what women are contributing is just their presence, making it less polarizing and bringing an openness to people accepting things that maybe weren't in their wheelhouse before.

AAJ: Beautifully put. And Carrington and her panel [Helen Sung, Akua Dixon and Endea Owens] said similar things at the JALC Congress.

Passing It On

AAJ: So you're doing a lot of teaching. Do you like teaching?

SC: I do. My first instinct was not to be a teacher. I wanted to be a player. But as I grew in the music and as I developed and became my own artist, I realized that if my generation doesn't become teachers, at least enough of us, this is not going to be passed on the way it should be. And so I teach because I know how important it is that the serious students of today are getting the information that I was able to get from the masters. I got on the tail end of bebop, with people like Jimmy Heath and James Moody. So being able to pass all the lessons on that I learned from Roy Hargrove and so many people. Even Antonio Hart, who is like my big brother in the Dizzy band, and the lineage of him studying with Phil Woods and my teacher Vincent Herring studying with Phil Woods. It's this huge lineage. And so I turned around one day and realized how important it is that this is passed on. And so if my only purpose in life is to be a cog in the wheel, to pass it on, then I'll have done something.

I started looking at where the music was going and who was teaching it, and how many people were graduating with jazz degrees and just flooding the scene with no accountability. I think my generation was one of the last generations to have accountability, even at jam sessions, from the elders. And to see that that's not so much in place anymore, and we're redefining jazz. I just thought, "You know what, at the very least they need to know what voice leading is, they need to know the history of the music, of bebop." So I teach it. It's a whole other art form that I dove into, and that I love now.

AAJ: I watched a clip of you doing a workshop on improvisation that was quite wonderful. You were talking about little phrases, having people solo with them, giving examples of what you would do, how you would transform them and make them into coherent solos. And that's certainly huge.

I think it's also great for people to see you doing it. For all those girls, those little girls who think they can't do it. And also for all those little boys who may think that they're just naturally better, you know. So it's a corrective for all those things.

SC: Absolutely. And that's a cycle. I have so many directors who call me and say, "You should come to my school; I have a lot of girls." And the first thing I say is, "That's great, but it'll be great for your boys, too." And what I see is that the girls don't care that I'm there at first. They only care once I have the respect of the boys. So it's the cycle. We all have to work together. It has to be the full wheel. If you cut a line down the middle, it doesn't work.

AAJ: So true.

The Juggling Act

AAJ: You're working in New York and all over the place, teaching, raising your son. How do you balance? What does your day-to-day schedule look like?

SC: It's tricky. It's a total juggling act. I teach at De Paul University and Elgin Community College Monday to Wednesday and then I usually go for some kind of school visit or artist residency or concert on the weekend. And I'm also with my son most of the time, so I'm always trying to find the best thing to do... It's definitely not easy, but I realized that I'd rather be doing this than giving something up. So it's just, "Move forward." I realized early on that I had to have the perspective that this may be a chapter where I just maintain. If I just maintain and keep moving forward, then it will free up eventually.

AAJ: Yes. I think that's a good way of looking at it. How old is your son now?

SC: He's just turned eight.

AAJ: It'll get easier... and then harder. Both of those things will happen. (laughter) Are you playing locally? Are you getting a chance to just have some fun gigs in town?

SC: Every now and then. When I first moved to Chicago, I was playing downtown a lot because there are so many amazing rhythm sections. But as I got busier, I realized that I need to plan my appearances in Chicago wisely. I can't be gone at night so much. When I'm gone, it's short as possible, it's worth it, and I'm home.

AAJ: Well there you have it. Busy. Making it work.

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