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Jimmy Haslip: Amperes Beyond The BASSics, Part 1


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I really loved working with Allan Holdsworth. He took things to a whole different level harmonically, and just the vibe of his music. Allan's playing was very deep emotionally.
—Jimmy Haslip
The name Jimmy Haslip needs no introduction. So, he doesn't get one. Seriously, we had a lot of ground to cover and he had so many great stories and interesting asides to share that we are breaking the interview into two parts as it is. So, without further ado...

All About Jazz: I believe it is against the Geneva Convention to not talk about Yellowjackets or left-handed bass players when talking with Jimmy Haslip. Having said that, those subjects have been well documented. Perhaps we can focus more on the present and what you have been up to post Yellowjackets. But before we blow past thirty plus years of your adult life spent with The Yellowjackets, can you summarize what that band and that time in your life meant and still means to you?

Jimmy Haslip: Its quite a large body of what I have accomplished so far in my professional career. Thirty-two years out of fifty-two years as a professional. When the Yellowjackets got together none of us ever would have ever thought that it would last as long as it did, and of course it is still going, I have been out of the band for eight years now. The band is still alive and well. They have done three more records since I left in 2012. I'm still very good friends with all the members, Robben Ford, Marc Russo, Russell Ferrante, Bob Mintzer and Will Kennedy. Peter Erskine as well, and a few other drummers that were in the band and others that participated with us in sessions. Guys like Alex Acuña, Luis Conte, and Paulino de Costa. There is a pile of people that helped us make records along the way. We had a lot going on, including being hired to do session work with some other very talented players like Dave Samuels, the great vibraphone and mallet player, that is sadly no longer with us. May he rest in peace. We did records with Bobby McFerrin, Brenda Russell, Al Jarreau, and many others. It was an enormous body of work and quite an incredible experience from my point of view. To have that opportunity to be playing, recording, producing, and composing was multi-faceted in that sense. It was like being in a Harvard school of education for musicians. When I sit down and think about everything it is really kind of mind boggling what all happened with that band and everything attached to it. It was quite a growing experience being part of an entity like the Yellowjackets. It was motivational and a tremendous experience on a lot of levels. It, of course, has a huge influence on what I do now and will continue to do so.

AAJ: Two Grammys and eighteen nominations speaks volumes for the success of the Yellowjackets.

JH: Yes, and that is out of twenty-two records.

AAJ: Eighteen out of twenty-two is pretty damn impressive no matter how you slice it.

JH: (laughing) Yeah, it's a pretty good batting average. All that attention was icing on the cake. All of us were excited and motivated about working together, writing music together, and performing together. When 2012 came along I turned sixty years old and took a hard look at all the touring and demanding schedules that I had kept up. I was reaching a certain pinnacle in my life where I was looking to perhaps change some things up. People will say that change is good sometimes. I felt like I needed some sort of change in my life as far as my career. While I was still in the band, I had started producing records for other artists. I had produced over ninety records while I was still with the Jackets. So, I started thinking of that as something I could do. As it turned out, in 2012, I was solicited by nine different artists to produce their records. I was perplexed as to how I was going to fit that all into my schedule. So, leaving the band started to be a consideration.

AAJ: A big consideration as well, I believe, is that you wanted to spend more time with your family.

JH: Yeah, there were a lot of different elements to it, as is going to be the case in a major life changing decision. My family was definitely one of the primary considerations involved in making that decision. Despite being on the road up to ten months a year I managed to have a very close relationship with my daughter and my two stepsons. They are incredible kids. It wasn't the optimum situation to be on the road so much, but my kids really were supportive. Like I say, they are really good kids. When we were together, we made sure that it was always super quality time and that gave us a strong family foundation. In 2012 my kids were grown, and I felt like I needed to connect even more and be there for them.

AAJ: To put it in perspective, how old were your kids at that time?

JH: My daughter was just turning eighteen, so a very important time. My oldest stepson was thirty-two and my youngest was twenty-nine. There were some things that I knew I could really help them with. The fact that I was turning sixty was a factor as well. It just seemed like the right time to make that kind of change in my life. Slow things down a little and be more involved with my family. Not to mention my wife(laughing). We needed and wanted more time together too, of course.

AAJ: That had to be a gut-wrenching decision when you left the band in 2012.

JH: It was very difficult. There was lot going on with the band including a new record deal. I ended up doing the first record for that deal. But the time with my family and the amount of production work coming my way helped pushed me over the edge in making that decision.

AAJ: It was to be a one-year leave of absence at the outset. Correct?

JH: Well, that's what we leaked out (laughing throughout) to anyone that was interested. Promoters, record companies, fan base, and people like that. I knew I was done but we did it that way out of respect for the band. We didn't want anything negative to be coming out that might get in the way of their continued success. We just made it seem like it was a hiatus, just taking a break. That way I could still do a few gigs with them in 2012 if needed. Which I ended up doing. The record company had contract expectations and we didn't want to create any perceived issues with that. We just wanted to ease things out more slowly.

AAJ: The transition then was kind of smooth then, since you already had production projects lined up that would keep you closer to home?

JH: Yes, I dove right in. I started bringing in other bass players some of the time. I was still playing, but I have no ego about that sort of thing. If a different bassist is what is best for the project, for the music, then that's what I do. I have a lot of friends that are bass players. It's great to get them involved and working on some records.

AAJ: That's great that you can do that, Jimmy. The music is what matters. Not everyone can check their ego at the door like that.

JH: The music has to be what is most important. Determining the right musicians for a project and who I can get involved is critical in making the music come to life. There are a lot of great musicians here in Los Angeles and all over the world. I have been fortunate to have traveled all over the world and met many musicians. I have stayed in contact with many of them. I have contact with jazz musicians all over the world. I'm proud of that and I am happy to be able to bring work to these many deserving musicians on our planet. It's a big plus for me. I get to work with people all over the world.

AAJ: The volume of work and artists you have played with in the eight years post Yellowjackets is staggering. We won't have time to talk about all of it today, but we'll give it a good shot. One thing you have done is cut back your touring a lot by doing even more production work. That obviously keeps you closer to home and your family life. You clearly are just as comfortable on the other side of the glass.

JH: I am, yeah. I love music. I enjoy the social element of making records in bringing musicians together to work on projects. It's a natural joyful experience for me. I never feel stressed about doing recording sessions or organizing and scheduling. I am good at multi-tasking. It's fun for me to do it.

AAJ: One project that stood out to me is with guitar wizard Dewa Budjana. I first heard him play with Jimmy Johnson and Vinnie Colaiuta on Surya Namaskar (Demajors, 2014). That record blew my mind. What can you tell us about your project and experiences with Dewa?

JH: I met Dewa through another Indonesian musician named Dwiki Dharmawan, a really great keyboard player from Jakarta. I did a record with Dwiki that I had Jeff Lorber engineer at his studio. I played bass with Chad Wackerman on drums and Dewa came over and played guitar. I became interested in Dewa at that time, but it took another series of events before we reconnected. Leonardo Pavkovic, who was Allan Holdsworth's manager, asked me to produce a record for a terrific guitarist from Switzerland, that plays a fretless, named Nicolas Meier. He wanted to do a record with Vinnie Colaiuta and myself. I have worked with Vinnie a lot over the years, so I was able to put that together. Nicolas came to Los Angeles and we did that trio project which resulted in Infinity (Favored Nations, 2016) (This, for the record, is also a mind-expanding gem).

AAJ: I'm familiar with Meier. I saw him play with Jeff Beck.

JH: That's the guy, yeah. Nicolas and I became friends and he called me to tell me he was going to tour with another guitarist. That turned out to be Dewa. Matter of fact it was in support of the record you mentioned, Surya Namaskar, and Infinity. They had some gigs, mostly in London, where Nicolas now lives. He asked me to come over and play along with a drummer from Israel, who also now lives in London, named Asaf Sirkis. Dewa also brought a guy named Saat Syah, who plays these handmade wooden flutes. Handmade by Saat himself. So, we performed as a quintet. I'm currently mixing a record that has Dewa on electric guitar, Nicolas on acoustic fretless, Saat on wooden flutes, Sirkis on drums and myself on bass.

AAJ: I can't tell you how glad I am that I brought up Dewa Budjana. That's a lot of great information. I will seriously be looking forward to hearing that one.

JH: I am mixing it with a great engineer named Karma Auger, who is Brian Auger's son.

AAJ: That is so very cool. The next generation rolls on.

JH: Yeah and we are about seventy percent completed with it. I'm not sure when it is going to come out yet, but I am going to help them find a home for it. It's a truly excellent record. Dewa and Nicolas both contributed new music to this record. It's, I suppose, kind of a world beat ethnic fusion sound.

AAJ: I will keep an eye out for it. What is going to be called?

JH: That's a good question(laughing). We are still throwing some ideas around. No title as of it now.

AAJ: Well, I'm sure I will find it because that kind of music really appeals to me.

JH: I will make sure you know about it, Jim. I will send you a message and give you a heads up. Better yet, I will make sure that you get a copy sent to you.

AAJ: That's very kind. Much appreciated, to say the least. Hopefully, I can have my review posted the same week that it comes out.

JH: That would be awesome, Jim.

AAJ: Before we dive into other artists you have been playing and producing records with, let's shift gears for a minute and go back to the beginning. You grew up in the Bronx. What was that like? Tell me about your mom and dad.

JH: I was born in the Bronx and was there for a little while as a young boy. I actually grew up in Long Island. My parents moved there when I was quite young, maybe five or six years old. I do remember a few things from the Bronx, which I guess is doing pretty well since I was a preschooler and that was so long ago.

AAJ: So, you were exposed to a lot of different types of music from an early age. A lot of salsa and Latin for sure. Were you listening to rock and jazz as well?

JH: Yeah, for sure. A whole lot of music. My mom and dad would be listening to everything from Count Basie to Tito Puente. A lot of big band and a lot of orchestral music. Even like Mantovani. My older brother, who still lives in New York, was really into jazz. I would go into his room and hear stuff like Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, Dave Brubeck, and Eric Dolphy. But then there were other times I would go into his room and he would be playing Stravinsky, Mozart, Bartok, and that sort of thing. He was very eclectic in what he wanted to listen to. We also had an aunt that was living with us and she listened to more of the very commercial pop music artists like Jerry Vale, Robert Goulet, and Johnny Mathis. So, I was exposed to a lot of different music at an early age. The music of my peers, of course, was a big factor. Artists like Eric Burdon and The Animals, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Jethro Tull, and lots of others. Back then we still had music programs in the public schools. In about the fourth grade I was given the opportunity to learn how to play music, which I thought was very exciting. I jumped at the chance and ended up playing trumpet all the way through the age of eighteen.

AAJ: My next question was going to be if you started with the bass or if there were other stops along the way. It appears you just answered that.

JH: I also learned how to play the bugle at the same time. I played a lot of brass instruments. I played trumpet in school orchestras and jazz bands. It was fun getting in there with all these other kids playing music. Due to necessity, as in no one else available to do it, I played the tuba a bit and a baritone horn. I became a troop bugler with the Boy Scouts. We were sponsored by the American Legion. It turned into a very interesting experience as a kid when the American Legion would ask me to join them on Memorial Day and play "Taps." We would go to various cemeteries in the area that the American Legion had already prearranged with flowers and other adornments. There would be some kind of gun salute and all that. At a young age that kind of an experience was pretty eye opening.

AAJ: Fast forwarding again for a moment, all that experience with brass instruments has to be helpful all these years later in the production process. I say that from the perspective of having a better grasp of where the brass players are coming from. What is realistic and what isn't. I suppose the, having walked in another man's shoes, perspective.

JH: Yes, we are always learning and that was an important early lesson. I left Long Island when I was eighteen to become a professional musician. There were plenty of horns in most of the bands I played in. As time wears on you realize more and more how important knowledge is as an aspect of anything you want to accomplish in life. In my case, now being a producer, the more I can learn about music and instruments and musicians the better. All the years with the Yellowjackets is a fine example of that. We were creating music centering on a guitarist, with Robben Ford, early on. But then we brought in Marc Russo on alto saxophone and that naturally changed the focus of the band. Then a few years later bringing in a tenor saxophonist, Bob Mintzer, once again altered the sound and production needs to accommodate that. Mintzer afforded us the opportunity to play as the rhythm section for big bands as well. That is yet another set of tools and knowledge to both play and produce that kind of sound. Bob would get these gigs in Europe and the United States and he would bring us, the Jackets, along as the rhythm section. So, then what started happening is that we would be playing our tunes in a big band format. Bob did all that arranging, and I did a whole lot of learning.

AAJ: That had to be a lot of fun and a great experience.

JH: It was a total blast! At one point we had eighteen Yellowjackets songs all written out for big band. We had a whole book of big band music that we could implement at any point and time. That grew even further once we had a relationship with a very wonderful composer and arranger by the name of Vince Mendoza. He wrote fifteen or so Yellowjackets tunes for a complete seventy-piece orchestra.

AAJ: Its fascinating that the experience with the Yellowjackets was so much of a training ground for a large body of production capabilities.

JH: Yeah, we were able to sit in at jazz festivals with a seventy-piece orchestra or an eighteen-piece big band or as the traditional band.

AAJ: Well too, you worked with quite a few guest artists. All of them had to create a need for production and arrangement adjustments.

JH: Yes, we had Tim Hagans, the tremendous trumpet player. We also did a record with Mike Stern.

AAJ: That alone created an entirely different picture. Sure, you had worked with Ford and other guitarists, but Stern's style is so uniquely crafted and improvisationally wide.

JH: The record we did with Mike, Lifecycles (Heads Up Records, 2008), was an incredible experience. You always bring your A game to any recording session or show, but yeah Mike is a special breed.

AAJ: Difficult for much of anything to come along now that is going to throw you for much of a loop. And if someone does come at you with something interesting that is outside the parameters it would, I imagine, be a welcome challenge that you would be excited to take on.

JH: Yes, I am fortunate to have had such strong and close-up insights into a wide and varied scope of music and production techniques. The versatility of the band just opened up so many facets of playing and producing. On top of that I was able to co-produce twenty of the Jackets records. Then too, I learned so much from producer Tommy LiPuma on the first two records. After that we signed a deal with MCA Jazz. At that point we just started producing our own records.

AAJ: So, you were seven when you started playing the trumpet. At what age did the bass come into the picture?

JH: I was thirteen when I started playing bass. That was kind of a fluke. I was just hanging out with some buddies of mine from the football team. I played a lot of sports as a kid.

AAJ: Oh, that's cool. I did too. What all did you play?

JH: I played almost all of them. Four or five teams a year. Football, basketball, track, lacrosse, and I was always playing baseball in the summer, either with a church team or some kind of sports club. As much as I loved music, I was really way more into sports. But anyways, I was hanging out with these guys and they were putting together a band to play a pool party. They didn't have a bassist, so they asked me if I would do it. So, I talked to my dad and he was totally into it. We went to a local music store and got a bass and an amp. I played one summer with these guys and had a blast. So, I just decided to keep playing it. In high school I played sports and I played in a rock band. I didn't think of music as a career back then. I went to community college for a year and got kind of bored with it. So now I'm thinking about what to do as far as a career and it just so happened that I ran into a buddy of mine one night who mentioned that his cousin was looking for a bassist. These guys were a little older than me and had gigs in night clubs and stuff. Well, you know that was a whole different thing. I mean I had only been playing high school dances and pool parties, not professional gigs. So, I went and auditioned for the band and I thought man these guys are old(laughing). They were all like between twenty-five and thirty(laughing).

AAJ: (laughing) Yeah when you're eighteen that age difference is quite a bit. It seems like a lot more than it does now.

JH: Exactly. Now I can look back and laugh. They were also much more experienced musicians. I was just a kid, not a professional. I left the audition thinking that there was no chance in hell that I was going to get that gig. Playing the bass had been a hobby for me.

AAJ: A bit more serious about the trumpet up until that point?

JH: No, not really. I was more into shooting hoops. But sure enough, I got that gig. That was a mind-blowing experience to be in this band with these older guys that were pretty experienced musicians. It was Top 40, but some pretty cool stuff. I was learning new music from these guys that were on a whole different level than I was at.

AAJ: That had to be the turning point for you. One minute you were dropping out of community college and not knowing what was next. This had to be the first time you were actually looking at it as a possible career.

JH: Yes, I looked at it as an incredible opportunity to start with. All of a sudden, I was playing five forty minutes sets seven nights a week. I started to think that maybe, just maybe, I could do this for a career. I mean I was really into it. I had seen all the great rock bands play. I mean the The Allman Brothers, Jimi Hendrix, saw him like five times, Cream, Frank Zappa, Yes, The Byrds, Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago Transit Authority, Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, a couple of times, Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, and many more. I also would go to Manhattan and see a lot of jazz. I saw Freddie Hubbard, Pat Martino, Benny Carter, Larry Coryell and the Eleventh House, Herbie Hancock and the Headhunters, Chick Corea Return to Forever, and so many others.

AAJ: You were fortunate to grow up in a big city and to see all those artists coming through. I had much the same experience on the other coast. Although I regret saying that I never saw Jimi Hendrix. We were just talking about the age difference of seven to ten years with your bandmates when you were eighteen. I believe the fact that you are two years older than me factors in here. I was just a little too young to catch Jimi. If he had lived for another year.....You saw Hendrix because he was incredible, of course, but how much too did the fact that he was this left-handed sensation factor into a young left handed bassist going to see him that many times? He had quite an impact on your career, didn't he?

JH: Jimi was a huge inspiration. Whenever he was in town, I would try to go see him play. He made me realize it was possible to do it at a high level playing left-handed. My take-away was always that I just needed to work hard to make it happen. But he was proof that it was possible to reach that level playing left-handed. I started again to seek out instruction and learn as much as I could about playing in general and certainly with respect to playing left-handed.

AAJ: That turned out to a difficult task for you.

JH: Yeah, there weren't a lot of bass instructors that were going to help you play the instrument upside down and backwards. Several months after joining the professional Top 40 band, I decided to try again to get some instruction. I needed help with melodic structures and some other things. Again, I ran into teachers wanting me to turn it around and play right-handed. That just didn't make sense to me. I had been playing the other way for five years at that point.

AAJ: Yeah, it seems like that would have been going backwards and wasting a lot of time.

JH: That was my thinking. I already knew how to play. I just wanted and needed some refinement. Others were kind of insulting. They were trying to teach me how to play nursery rhymes, like I was a beginner. It was very frustrating. Finally, I found a teacher that played electric bass that also played a tuba. I would go to him and he would play the tuba and I would play the bass. He started showing me some very important things about harmony including the diatonic scale. Now my interest was truly perked. That was what I needed. Eventually he taught me the entire complex modal system of the major scale. That was eye opening and motivated me to learn more. He understood that I already had some skills. He just kept feeding me all these very important things. Just five or six lessons with him changed things a lot for me. Much of it I had more or less figured out before, but I didn't have the terminology for it, nor did I know if I was actually doing it right. It gave me validation as well as motivation.

AAJ: Well sure, yeah. You had to be hesitant before if you weren't sure that you were doing it the right way. Now the gloves were off, you had the green light to proceed and move forward.

JH: That's exactly right, Jim. That was fantastic. I took those few lessons with this gentleman, named Ron Smith, and that led to more serious study. The guitarist in the Top 40 band and I became good friends and he taught me a lot of things as well. He had taken some lessons with Pat Martino and was able to share quite a bit of knowledge with me. The more I learned, the more I wanted to study and learn about the instrument, more about harmony, more about the music. I dedicated myself to studying and becoming a better musician. I could see myself doing it. I knew that I just needed to put in the time and do the work. In the mid-seventies I got very lucky and was able to study with Jaco Pastorius.

AAJ: You got to study with Jaco. Wow! I didn't know that.

JH: I can't even put it in to words what that experience was like. It was an interesting experience to hang with him at that time. He had just joined Weather Report. To sit there and see what he was doing was mind boggling. It could be motivating and sometimes depressing.

AAJ: How so the latter?

JH: He was just so amazing on the instrument that it could be intimidating.

AAJ: Oh, okay I understand that. The I'm not worthy syndrome.

JH: Yeah, but what helped me not want to go jump off a bridge somewhere was that Jaco and I were the same age. Like only thirty days apart in age. I was able to acknowledge that he was just extraordinarily gifted. I mean you can't teach most of that stuff. He was just born with it. But I was able to get my head around the fact that I could at least get a lot better by learning from him. He set the bar. Now the thing was trying to reach it.

AAJ: You may never get there but if you come close then you have improved dramatically as a player.

JH: That was it, Jim. That is it, exactly. It gave me a very high level to aspire to. I was about twenty-five years old at that time.

AAJ: It would seem you were fortunate to hook up at that age. I mean to say that when you were both say twenty-one you might not have had the skill set yet to really grasp what Jaco was doing.

JH: I would have jumped off the bridge for sure, Jim(much laughter).

AAJ: (laughing hard at the bridge comment) Besides the trouble getting an instructor when you were younger and some basic fundamental issues, has being a lefty created any other noteworthy issues or challenges?

JH: I have overcome some and others I have had to just let go. Techniques for example, such as playing a thumb bass. The grandfather of that style is Larry Graham.

AAJ: Ah yes, Graham Central Station.

JH: Yeah, and Sly and the Family Stone. Both bands were incredible, and Larry is a big reason why. Marcus Miller has a great technique for thumb base. Louis Johnson, who is no longer with us, was another master of that. You really have to play the instrument conventionally in order to achieve what that technique is. I attempted to do it for a while. I did it a little bit when we needed it for a certain song with the Yellowjackets and on a couple of other recordings. But I have put more focus into some other techniques that great bassists like Anthony Jackson and James Jamerson are so proficient at. They are more in my wheelhouse. I try to emulate sound more than technique. I listen a lot. Then I try to recreate a sound. It doesn't matter if I achieve it in the same way. I listen to a lot of string bassists. There is a whole different sound there. Then I can try to get closer to that sound on my electric bass. Just another way of providing a different sound that might fit better or add a different texture to a song. I have found that it is just another way that I can express myself on the instrument and let's say bring something else to the party. I'm still searching for those sounds. We all are. Always learning, always moving forward.

AAJ: I mentioned that I never saw Jimi, but I did have the pleasure, in the early seventies, of seeing and hearing the master of the Flying V. A lefty that just smoked the house down. Talking about the great Albert King.

JH: Oh yeah, I saw Albert too. Incredible player that influenced me a great deal.

AAJ: Yeah, he was opening for a rock artist. I was young and didn't even know who he was. We sure the fuck knew who he was by the time his set was over.

JH: (laughing) Yeah, he was something. Can't go wrong with any of the Kings really.

AAJ: For sure. The three Kings. Saw Freddie and B.B. too. Freddie was the best blues guitarist I ever saw, regardless of last name. After the first two Yellowjackets records with co-founder Ford, the band shifted, as we talked about, to a saxophone with Russo and later Mintzer. Although you had some guest guitarists, the fact that you have played with Allan Holdsworth, Stern, Oz Noy, Michael Landau, and some other guitar giants since leads me to believe that you were kind of itchin' to play with some bad ass guitar players.

JH: It just sort of happened that way. But I was happy about it for sure (excitement in his voice). I love playing with all those guys. I really loved playing with Holdsworth. He took things to a whole other level harmonically and just the vibe of the music. Allan's playing was very deep emotionally. I also got to play with a couple of other great drummers when playing with Allan. Both Chad Wackerman and Virgil Donati. Also, a great tour with Gary Husband on drums.

AAJ: One of your projects in 2019 was getting Stern and Lorber to record together. Two long time jazz and fusion artists that both have recorded a ton of music, but that had never played together before. As Stern put it in a conversation a few months ago, "Jeff and I have been in different orbits." That project came to fruition with the record Eleven (Concord Jazz, 2019). You get the credit or the blame for that, I would say the former(laughing). How did all that come about?

JH: Well, I have worked with Jeff a lot since 2012. We have done six records together.

AAJ: Yeah, including the Grammy winning Prototype (Shanachie, 2017). Congrats on that. That gives you three, I believe, adding in the two with the Yellowjackets.

JH: Three is correct and thanks for that, Jim. Jeff had some new tunes that he was playing for me that I thought were great. So, I figured he was planning to do another record. We had done six records together at this point. They are all different, of course, but still coming from a similar place with the horns and all that. So, Jeff was wanting to do something different for our seventh record. That was our challenge to come up with something. One day Jeff mentions in conversation that one time. years ago, he got to play on stage a bit with Mike Stern and how cool that was. Well, that was all I needed for the light bulb to go on. I asked him if he would be interested in doing a record with Mike. Jeff immediately got excited and thought that could be a very interesting project. My thought was that it would be as well, because they come from two different styles or camps of music. I wasn't sure if they would write together or each come in with their own tunes.

AAJ: They ended up doing the latter, of course.

JH: Yeah, and that was fine. No matter how we did it, the idea was that both Mike's fans and Jeff's fans would be curious and interested.


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