Jef Lee Johnson: It's Been So Long Since I've Seen with My Eyes

JLJ: Yeah, we're in an ugly club together. When I was making that record with George, I really wanted to call Wayne (Shorter). There's a few of us. It's not a "time heals" situation. It's a "this is your life from now on, deal with it." So I'm trying to drown out the voices in my head with some other voices, basically. We were married seven years. I knew her a lot longer actually, but we never talked to each other. We were afraid of each other but...let's talk about something else.

AAJ: Ok. Let's hype "Hype Factory," or are we done with that?

JLJ: Probably not. I'm preoccupied with trying to get this other thing done which is probably not good, because I'm always immediately on to the next thing. I have one that is actually done that is a "ghost" project- it will not be released under my name. Then there's a new solo cd which is basically done except for a few tracks and the mixing.

AAJ: Are these both single discs?

JLJ: Yeah

AAJ: Like an hour apiece?

JLJ: I have no idea and knowing me ...I wanted to do a series of cds and Jim said it was easier to release a double cd than two in a row, so that's why at the last second "Hype" became a double. And now 've been running into all these mixing problems.

AAJ: Maybe somebody should do that for you and you should concentrate on all the art that's pouring out of you.

JLJ: The accident put all that into perspective because basically, nothing is going to be the way you want it to be so you're going to have to adapt or rechannel or...so I have to. Nothing is that earthshaking that I can't adjust at this point, or just like, leave the room if it's bothering me that much. So when I get some equipment that works, I'll start to cut again! Gotta get it out there. Y'know I have to say, I really appreciate that JazzTimes review. That says everything about Hype Factory.

AAJ: Yeah, Hilarie Grey really packed it all into about five or six sentences, there.

JLJ: Yeah, it scared me man. Those are some big words to live up to.

AAJ: I just think more people should know about you and what you're doing. I mean some people know who you are and don't even know that you have solo cds out there.

JLJ: People come up and ask at gigs you know. But that's part of the herd thing too. Like people asking if I have a website. Hey, if you can go to Amazon and type in my name, then I don't need a website to sell records. It's another programming thing. It's not their fault. That's just the information people are fed and come to expect.

It's like the teenagers and the emotional thing we were talking about. They're parents don't want to emote. They want to sit in their cubicle and listen to some soft jazz in the background so they don't have to think. I have heard it said over and over again, because if people start thinking, they may not be following.

AAJ: Yeah man, plus if they listen to you they won't be getting any work done (laughs)! I literally could not listen to your music and write about something else, for instance.

JLJ: Right, you wouldn't be at the computer. You know that. They don't. They think music is supposed to be in the background while they work. They're not thinking at all that music is something that is supposed to go in your body as Miles used to say. They're not thinking like that but it's not their fault.

AAJ: Did Miles say that?

JLJ: He says that, yeah, He used to say, like, "I didn't like that 'cause it didn't go in my body." That's like an old, old, old church type saying. That's what music does..it fills you up or lifts you up. I'm from a church family so I used to hear all that. That's just his stamp on that.

That's where I started playing, bass, in church with my mom. She played piano or organ and I had to play because my grandfather built the church! I played piano or organ too. My father was the superintendent of Sunday school and my uncles were the pastors. I had to be there, it wasn't a matter of, "Are you going to church?"

AAJ: Was that in Philly?

JLJ: Right near where I live now as a matter of fact. In Germantown. Providence Baptist Church, 87 East Haynes Street. I had to be there every day, not like Sunday. Fold the programs, help the ladies in the kitchen. It wasn't a thing to me. It was just someplace I had to be. I thought every kid had to be at someplace like that. I was just messing around with a guitar and my mother said, "Well you're playing bass next week in church." I didn't have a bass. She just told me who to borrow one from!

AAJ: Those gospel bands you see on TV have some happening bass players.

JLJ: This was not a band. It was my mom... and me! We were the band! It wasn't even like, "Do you know this tune?" It was, "Follow me." That kind of hardcore thing. Later, when I was playing with Eddie Green at Carter's up on Staten and Washington Lane or whatever it came in handy when they just started playing. "Do you know this tune? No? You better know it by the time we get to 4!" So you learn a lot of stuff on the gig you might not learn in your theory class or whatever, but it all works together if you don't lose your mind.

AAJ: Are you a big ear player? Or do you know a lot of theory, too?

JLJ: At one point I did. It hardly ever comes together. I always wanted to be some kind of session guy, or so I thought, or a producer. I was reading and practicing every day but I wasn't getting any gigs. And then the first gigs I got, there were no charts. It would just be, "Play something funky!" So you had to have all of it. It was never a case of having a funky chart or somebody explaining it in such detail that you understood the part. That's the history of R'n'B anyway. It's usually some guy making $20 or $50 that came up with the great part. I remember when I met Sugar Bear (Michael "Sugar Bear" Foreman), the bassist who did, probably most of, those historic Philly International songs from the 60s and 70s. I remember someone said something like, "This is a young boy, Jef. Got any words of advice for him?" He told me to quit before it's too late. He was sitting there with his bass-and a bottle-and he said, "What do you think of this?" And he played the descending bass line from "Bad Luck?" He said, "Who wrote that?" I said Gamble and Huff. He said, "Well, Gamble and Huff didn't come up with that bass line! I did!." When you think of that line—that's the song, and you don't think of Sugar Bear. But that's history. I mean I've played on a couple people's records where I didn't necessarily play a signature like that, but I played some stuff, got my check and went home..whatever. Again, not good or bad..it just is and you just have to find your way to exist without losing it. Some cats can just lose it. If your threshold is down there, you will lose it.

AAJ: You probably couldn't play a lot of music if you were holding on to that stuff.

JLJ: Well, if you keep your threshold high you can deal with this or that and make it to the point where you can hopefully do something that makes some people, like me at sixteen go, "Whoa man, who is this guy?" For me, that was people like Edwin Birdsong, Stanley Clarke, Maxanne. By the way, Maxanne was a nasty, funk R'n' B artist who sang in a band by the same name. On some level, you can't explain the impact music like this makes on our lives. You have to live through it. You can't explain to some kid how Hendrix used the wah-wah pedal or Miles did whatever, you have to know how it came about.

AAJ: And transcended it.

JLJ: Yeah, but at the time they didn't know they were doing anything transcendent. To them, they were just playing some music. They were just doing what the voices in their head were telling them to do. You can hear it when they do it. They did, and I try to do...gravitate towards things..certain harmonies..certain sounds of your instrument...and they're not going to lie to you or mislead you..and if you're not afraid of 'em you go there and represent. And when some kid says, "Man, that was the most incredible mess I ever heard," and you can look 'em in the eye and say, "OK, what are you gonna do about it kid?," that's how the chain keeps goin.' Michael Bland was wondering if there were still any kids that react to music like that? I hope so.

AAJ: You're going to run into a few if you start gigging with those guys! (laughs)

JLJ: Let's hope that happens, with all the guys. The community should be like that. I'm going to be naive enough to wake up during the time it's not happening' to think that maybe that's the day it's going to come together, because I can't think of it any other way, even for the most part I know its whack.

If the right people find each other, some good stuff happens. It doesn't happen as often as it should, or maybe even as often as it did, but it does happen. Ted and I were just talking and we said, "Well, what if it didn't happen?" If I was convinced of that I'd go get a nose job and some liposuction and become a crooner I guess. (laughs) But really, the good stuff keeps happening on a continuing basis. There hasn't been a gig that Ted and Charles and I have done that hasn't been a lofty level. Rehearsals are on that level. And that's the way it should be. Ted is not necessarily an avant or whatever you want to call it guy, but he does his version of that and gets right into it. He doesn't fear it.

AAJ: What would have to happen for you guys to mount a 20 date east coast tour?

JLJ: Simple-some tour manager would have to come along and book the dates. I have no management at the moment. I don't do it well. I'm too busy trying to do the music. I can only get a date at the Knitting Factory or in Philly. In France, a local promoter takes care of those dates. If somebody came along that was into the music, and had a few things booked, we'd be there.

AAJ: You must have some conflicts yourself with everyone your working with.

JLJ: No, it's all music there is no conflict. If I get a string of gigs, then I'll do them. Especially as far as Rachelle is concerned. She had me opening up for her at one point. It was just too weird for the people, that's all. She wanted people to hear this music, but it was like Hendrix opening for the Monkees...kinda odd (laughs).

I hate to keep bringing his name up. Ironically, there was a guy in England, a road manger for Rachelle, that actually was in England when Hendrix first came over and he was kind of the roadie. I just got a letter from him today about how happy he was about the French cd and a couple of things in Europe and to remember that things take time and to not get excited..not that I was anyway. Keeping me in check (laughs). He said, "Jimi didn't happen overnight," and stuff. It's weird, because they never talk to me about that stuff on the gig. They allude to it. I'm not a star guy. I think of myself as more of the goofy guy that writes these weird little tunes that people think are cute. So, we'll see. As far as any synchronicity or serendipity we'll see. If I'm around and someone wants me to play..I'll play.

AAJ: Can you take me through some of the time line and some of the folks you played with? Was your first major gig with Shannon?

JLJ: Actually, my first major gigs were together. I was playing with McCoy Tyner and Sister Sledge at the same time! To my knowledge, I'm one of four guitarists who played with McCoy, the others being Earl Klugh, Santana and Jean-Paul Bourelly. This was 1980 or 81. I once went from Sister Sledge gig to a McCoy Tyner gig! And I was kind of doing the gigs in the same head, just different notes. It was funny. Actually a little bit before that I did a James Cleveland thing..gospel. And I was a Drell for a minute, for maybe two gigs

AAJ: Archie Bell and the Drells?

JLJ: Yeah, there were a lot of gigs like that- Blue Magic and the Flamingoes. Late seventies. Harold Melvin, There was an Atlantic City mess and I played a few gigs with Aretha. I did Letterman for a minute.

AAJ: You were in the Letterman band? I'm flabbergasted.

JLJ: Yeah, for like a month and a half. I never held gigs for like a really long time.

AAJ: Just subbing for Hiram or before?

JLJ: He had gotten fired for the last time, so that was like a transition point. After Hiram and before Sid McGinnis, in '84. I did some gigs with Chaka and some gigs with Roberta Flack. Chaka's where I met Michael (Bland) actually. The D (Angelo) thing was later.

AAJ: When was Ronald Shannon Jackson?

JLJ: That was late 80's, maybe 87 when I started playing with him.

AAJ: You played on a killing Jamaaladeen Tacuma record.

JLJ: Yeah, one. "Dreamscape."

AAJ: That's a great record on DIW again. Hard to get..

JLJ: That's my M/O. "I can never find this guy." There were some weird ones too. A Dionne Farris session. I don't know what happened with that. Billy Joel.

AAJ: Billy Joel?

JLJ: Yeah, I'm on "River of Dreams"

AAJ: Really?

JLJ: Yeah, I'm playing bass on there. There's like three bass players and they made one track out of it.

AAJ: I wanted to make sure to mention that first Ben Schachter CD I love you in that downtown kind of bag.

JLJ: That's a real good record. Like the cuts where he wanted two basses. I'll do what I can. The weird thing to me was the tuning of the basses. Everybody was listening to each other on a scary level. But then again, that's how it should be. That goes back to the original part of our conversation. Conditioning. People see music more than they hear it these days. We should be a bit more strong than we are and depend on other people to do the right thing with us.

AAJ: So what did you pick up from your experience with McCoy?

JLJ: Well, you pick up everything everywhere if you're paying attention. The thing with playing with McCoy and Eddie Green is they collectively got me playing the claw style, like Jerry Reed. It's kind of a berserk jackin' style, a little more radical than Chet Atkins' rigid jackin.' They taught me the difference between striking a chord on piano and strumming it on guitar. Usually, when you strike a piano, you're striking simultaneously and with a guitar you're strumming across. To strike simultaneously with guitar, you have to claw it.

AAJ: So are you playing with all the fingers on the right hand when you comp?

JLJ: I have a pick and sometimes I'm pickin' and sometimes I'm not, but if I thought about it I'd probably confuse myself because I've just been doing it for so long.

AAJ: So pick and the fingers at the same time?

JLJ: Yeah, it's also a Southern thing. They call it "disappearing pick." After a while you don't think about it. McCoy, when he was doing a massive chordal thing he would wave me on to play with him. So I'm standing there going, "OK, you either have to figure out something to play with this, or stand here and look stupid, so what's it gonna be?" I had to figure out how to voice like him, around him, over him and under him.

AAJ: Were you playing smaller, three note voicings, when you played with him?

JLJ: Sometimes. And sometimes I was playing almost exactly what he was playing if I could figure it out.

AAJ: In unison?

JLJ: It was like a "Wall of Sound" thing in an abstract sense. He was for whatever reason, like, "C'mon, Play!"

AAJ: I mean, Mc Coy is known for his deep chord concepts. Berklee has whole courses of study on his techniques and his theories of harmony.

JLJ: Yeah, well I had course every night. Instant courses (laughs). It was like, put up or shut up. I think that's what he was doing.

AAJ: How'd you hook up with him?

JLJ: Auditions. I went and got the gig. He was trying something out. He had just done a record with Santana, Phyllis Hyman and Stanley Clarke, so they were looking for a guitarist. Bobby Broom did a gig, I remember. I did about eight.

AAJ: Do you currently gig locally in Philly more than other places?

JLJ: No. I've been on the road, pretty much, for the last two years. That's what I have to do if I want to pay the mortgage. I don't even know what's going on locally. Rechelle was a good while, D was almost a year. James Carter. Rob Reddy did a little tour, which was cool. The Montreux All-Stars was with Sanborn, Joe Sample, George Duke, Al Jarreau and Roberta Flack. That went out twice in the past two years. Lalah Hathaway was on one also. She's one of my favorites. Everybody is together on that. One band. Everybody comes up and does their tunes. At one point literally everyone is out at the same time. George is the MC and picks the band. That was the deal with the Miles tribute thing because he's the resident over there, so...

AAJ: Yeah he's the "Montreux guy."

JLJ: We did a tribute to Serge Gainsborough the year before the Miles one. I also did some gigs with Roberta as a sub. I was playing bass.

AAJ: So who are some of your favorite rhythm sections?

JLJ: Well, I love playing with Michael Bland, and Jon Roberts who is with George. Actually, the last gig was with Jon and Chris McBride. That's who did the record.

AAJ: Nice!

JLJ: Jon's another Philly boy. He's Steve Ford's nephew, who is like the gospel producer god here. He's in that crossover crew. Brian Moore is another one. They both moved to Atlanta from Philly.

AAJ: Who's the crossover crew?

JLJ: They're like church drummers who have this really bizarre style of playing drums. It's based on an old R'n'B-ish thing, similar to what James Jamerson did to R'n'B bass. It's almost like a bebop interpretation of R'n'B but it was the way he did it that made it another thing. Like on "Midnite train to Georgia" and "Grapevine," he is playing some really berserk stuff, man. That's what these drummers do. I am only talking about drummers though. Let's see, on bass, Reggie Washington and Chico Huff. As far as other instruments, Jim Ridl is a great pianist.

AAJ: Oh yeah he plays with Martino. He's a nice pianist.

JLJ: He's beyond a nice pianist man. We were going to do a trio record with him playing left hand synth or organ and I was going to play bass and guitar. We'll see. It's all up to me. My mind is shredded wheat, If I can hang in there, and they can put up with me, then we'll do it.

AAJ: It sounds like you're hanging in there.

JLJ: My mess is ..sometimes, I'm not here. I don't even know how I'm doing it, actually.

AAJ: A critic trying to describe your playing, especially when taliking about your chordal style or chord fragments, or shorter burst of single-note stuff, would say "angular." Do you know what I'm talking about?

JLJ: Yes, I've heard that term before. And I think it comes from the elements of my style that evolve out of Monk, Jan Hammer and Wayne Shorter. Even some Ella Fitzgerald. Even Zawinul.

AAJ: Is it intervallic?

JLJ: Well, the theory is the base. You're supposed to communicate on all levels not just the funny words and melodies that fit over the chords. It's supposed to be a dialogue with the people back at the bar, who have no idea of theoretical concepts, stop between sips and go "hmm," and relate to it on some level. That's what it's all about. It's not supposed to be inaccessible or, "hey look what I can do." This is for us. All of us. If you've ever watched the series "The Prisoner" there was a sign on the compound that said. "Music begins where words end" or something like that. That's the way I was brought up. Music is supposed to be for people who can't sing or can't play to bring them into that. It's not supposed to alienate.

AAJ: So you come at it from a very non-technical perspective?

JLJ: Well, the technical is the basis. But its supposed to be emotional. We're in the emotion business. We're in the feel business. That's not negating anything else either. If you want to be a Diva or a primadonna fine. But I want to be a musician and I want people to be into the music just as much as I am and was when I was ..like I said, 14 and 15 listening to the Mahavishnu Orchestra and Rufus! There was nobody around saying I couldn't listen to that, or Funkadelic or Bach in the same sitting. I wasn't thinking about whether loud guitars were supposed to be up front or how the violas and violins came together, I was thinking about how it was all affecting me, and it was affecting me in a good way. The musicians are responsible for putting it over so people will feel that..so they'll laugh or cry. That's what it's supposed to be and on a level where you're not crying or laughing because you are sad or happy..you are just feeling, you know- maybe both at the same time.

AAJ: Amazing how you're saying this but you are working at the absolute highest levels technically. Reading charts with the George Dukes and James Carters of the world. But yet you're putting across an emotional thing.

JLJ: I don't know if they think the same. George is, as you say, at the ultimate level of technical musicianship but he's from a different school. But we can both speak in the same situation. Neither looks down on the other's approach. I look up to him and he tells me I've become his favorite guitarist. That's another "Put up or shut up," like McCoy. My reading over the years, for example, has been sloppy, but I'm going to make it music regardless. George knows that and he's counting on me to do that. James is from another school, but we have the same determination that we're going to make music out of the sum of our parts. I am going to come into these sessions and hit them as hard as humanly possible and they know that.

AAJ: Are you more focused on your own thing or the sideman thing?

JLJ: I have to work with other people to make a living, but if the day comes I can pay the cats and me money for doing my music, that's what I'd want to do.

AAJ: Anyone you'd love to work with you haven't yet?

JLJ: Y'know, someone brought over that Jan Hammer video, "In the Mind's Eye," so I got the cds and went out and got "Melodies" again. Then I realized all over again how great he is. I was trying to get a thing together with Anthony Jackson and Michael Bland. Now that sounds great conceptually, but you never really know how it would work until you got in there and did it.

AAJ: So what would I take for a small label to get you? I mean some of these small labels are merely paying for the artist's recording date and for distributing the record. The artist gets no "fee." Or if they do it's a token amount.

JLJ: That's what the deal was with DIW. In my case, any of that little bit would help. The records I'm doing with Dreambox, I have to pay to make and then Jim takes care of the rest.

AAJ: There are many small labels who might pay for guys to do recordings, but they won't pay on top of that.

JLJ: I don't know how they operate, but it seems to me they have the money, and I'm not quite sure how they go about using it. I'm just figuring out how to do what I'm going to do. Do I use plastic, do I take a gig? Or they raised my mortgage! Whatever. At this point it's all so meaningless. I am just concerned about putting the music out. That's what my wife would say. "Just do the music and shut up. It's what we do." She wouldn't put it necessarily in that crude way, but... or as George would say, "If it ain't right it's wrong." So by all means if its right, let's be about it.

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