Steve Berrios: Latin Jazz Innovator

Lessons from Max and Buhaina

AAJ: Let's talk about M'Boom. How was it working with Max Roach?

SB: That was another one of my learning experiences. When Freddie Waits passed away, Joe Chambers gave me a call. Ray Mantilla couldn't make a concert and they also needed to fill the space for Freddie Waits. So I got the call, made a couple of rehearsals and fell right in. Between playing percussion and playing the drum set I added a little more than what Freddie was doing because he didn't know anything about Latin hand percussion, so I was like two guys in one.

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Julito Collazo's Bata Crew

We hit it off from the first day, and all those great drummers: Roy Brooks, Omar Clay, Warren Smith, Ray Mantilla, Eli Fontaine, Nasheet Waits who started out as a roadie and then graduated to play with the band, Stefon Harris, and another bad percussionist from Philly Greg Mcgyver, a good mallet player. That was a unique band because people would say "Oh no, ten drummers! but it wasn't bashing and dropping bombs. We played melodies and Max would say if you can't hear what's going on with the other instruments you're playing too loud. It was very soft music.

AAJ: With that band you were playing everything tympani, marimba...

SB: Glockenspiel. It gave me the opportunity to learn parts on all those different instruments. Every tune we had to rotate, that was part of the rules.

AAJ: Did Max write all of the music?

SB: He wrote some. He wrote a lot of the good stuff in the band but my favorite composer was Joe Chambers, and also Omar Clay had some interesting tunes.

AAJ: Joe Chambers is kind of underrated as a composer.

SB: Another underrated cat. He's a great composer and a great pianist. He's a good guy, we're pretty tight.

AAJ: That's one of your current gig right.

SB: Yeah, that's another great experience because when he's playing drums I'm playing percussion and when he plays vibes I play the drum set. So it gives me a lot of leeway to do what I like to do.

AAJ: In light of Max's recent passing why don't you talk his influence on jazz drumming and jazz music in general.

SB: Well Max was one of the most important drummers on the bebop scene. He invented most of that language. Again getting back to everybody gets something from somebody else, he got a lot from Klook [Kenny Clarke] and Papa Joe Jones. But he compiled it and made it his own and you can tell...there's certain licks that any drummer that plays jazz will have to know that came from Max Roach. Also, he put the drum set out in front.

Most people look at the drummer as an ignorant timekeeper that doesn't know anything about music or forms, but he dispelled that false rumor. A drummer has to be as intelligent as the horn players or more intelligent. I don't care who the leader of the band is once the tune is counted off the drummer is the leader of the band. The drummer controls the dynamics, the tempo, the feel of the music, everything, and that's a big responsibility. A horn player, they can play the head, play a solo, and then they can be off at the bar. But we have to stay there throughout and maintain that intensity. So Max had a lot of integrity and commanded respect.

I think people that are playing the music we are trying to play are special people, and if you don't respect yourself and carry yourself that way, no one else will. You know, "Oh yeah, just another drummer, a jazz cat. No, it's just the opposite, we're like royalty. We're blessed and that's how we should conduct ourselves and I learned that from Max and Art [Blakey]. We have to treat each other for what we are, because not everyone can do what we do.

AAJ: That's true. Unfortunately a lot of people look at us and say they "play they don't work.

SB: Right, if you call a plumber to fix your bathroom you gotta pay him. But with us we're just having fun and there's a lot of chicks around and drugs and drinking. So we're just playing, having fun and we have dispel that myth 'cause it's not true. We gotta pay our rent just like everybody else does. Send kids to college; pay the mortgage, car notes. Why should we get paid less than minimum wage 'cause people think we're having fun, you know what I mean?

AAJ: I couldn't agree more. Think of all the hours spent developing your craft.

SB: Right, and it's not like, well, I'm gonna study two hours a day. It's a non-stop learning process. I can relate anything I do to music. Think about watching a guy pitch in a baseball game, how he winds up, I can relate that to music. Or a good boxer, his body language, the way he moves. Or a good cook, I can relate that to the colors in a tune.

AAJ: Unfortunately, I think for the average person music is just something they put on to have in the back round.

SB: Right. But if you take music away from the average person, any kind of music, they'd go crazy. Take anything related to the arts, take it away from a person that's ignorant and they couldn't handle it. You know, "Can you play something? It's so quiet in here.

AAJ: Do you think the arts are what has kept us from blowing up this planet?

SB: Exactly. We keep those fools in check and basically it's not their fault. They don't realize they need it even though they do.

AAJ: Art Blakey was another big influence on you and another great drummer you got to work with.

SB: Well, God bless him. Before I met him, I heard him on records with a percussionist named Sabu Martinez who was good friend of my dads. They did a couple of '78s of drum stuff called Safari or something like that on Blue Note. So I heard that stuff as a young kid. Then when I was playing trumpet I met Art's son, Art Jr. (we used to call him Sonny) he played drums. And we got tight and I played trumpet with him for awhile. He would take me by his father's house and I was delighted and in awe just to be around him and checking him out. He was a sweetheart, a nice friendly guy. He dug the young cats and he would school you, but without sitting you down and saying, "This is the way you do it son, but just by assimilation.

He was one of the best band leaders I've ever met. He made you feel like you were needed but he also pushed you to be independent. He made his sidemen feel like they were just as important as the leader. He always used to tell the Messengers, "Don't get too comfortable, this is not the Post Office. Some of the cats would think, this is a good gig, I'm gonna be here for awhile. He never wanted that. There's a record he did Live At Birdland (Blue Note, 1954) with Clifford Brown, Horace Silver and Lou Donaldson and there's a quote where Bu says, "When these guys get too old I'm gonna get some younger ones. He was very intelligent, he knew about politics, all kinds of stuff.

AAJ: Then you hooked up him again later on.

SB: I wasn't working at the time, he didn't know that, but I went to see the band down in the Village, and he said, "Hey man, what are you doing, and I told him things were kind of light and I wasn't doing anything and he said, "Well come with me let's go to Paris. I said, "What? Okay. [laughs] He didn't ask me, he said, "You're coming with me. He was like a father figure, you can't say no, I'm not going. And a situation like that, how would you not go with Art Blakey to Paris? I didn't even ask if he was gonna pay me, it wasn't about that. He paid for everything just like a vacation. So that turned into me being the road manager for about a year. I had never done that before. I was responsible for paying all the cats, checking them into airports and hotels, giving them wake up calls. I really learned a lot.

AAJ: Did you run into any guys running you ragged, like being late all the time?

SB: No, 'cause that would be on them. I'd tell them it's a seven o'clock call, if not, it's on you. I didn't baby sit anybody.

AAJ: Who was on the band at that time?

SB: Mulgrew Miller, Donald Brown, and later Benny Green on piano. Peter Washington on bass. Terrance Blanchard and then Wallace Roney on trumpet. John Toussaint and Javon Jackson on tenor, Donald Harrison and Kenny Garrett on alto and Tim Williams on trombone.

AAJ: What time period was that?

SB: I think it was '84. Also, sometimes I'd play percussion on the gig and I'd play drums on "The Theme, when Art would introduce the band. I rehearsed the band sometimes too but when Art would play, they would sound like completely different tunes [laughs]. It was a great experience.

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Larry Willis and Hilton Ruiz

AAJ: Can you talk about Larry Willis? It seems like you guys have a special relationship.

SB: Larry and I grew up together. When we were teenagers we used to play in little bands together. He's my senior by about two or three years and I used to hang out in his neighborhood, around 154th and 8th Avenue. I used to hang there a lot, I wasn't from there but everybody thought I was; Al Foster's from that neighborhood. But we have some ESP happening though we don't really talk about it or anything.

AAJ: Did you recommend him for the Apaches?

SB: No, he started hanging around us at the same time, and I knew Larry well so it was no problem, it worked out great. Since then, Jerry should be grateful that all these cats have hung in throughout the years.

AAJ: Larry seems like he's another bilingual cat.

SB: Right, exactly, because he lived that era too. He would go to the Palladium and Birdland at the same time I was doing it.

AAJ: When he plays so called Latin music he sounds really unique to me.

SB: Sure, that's what makes the Apache Band what it is, 'cause he's not playing standard montunos, which is great in a Salsa band but if you hint at that, which is the way the Apaches play, it opens it up more. You get a better feeling than having it locked up like on a Salsa gig. We're still playing in clavé and playing the authentic beats but the piano players role is more open than if you were playing on a Salsa gig.

AAJ: Yeah, to me he sounds like Herbie Hancock playing over a Latin rhythm section.

SB: There you go. And that's done deliberately too. Those are little subtleties that only musicians would appreciate.

AAJ: Another pianist you've worked with a lot is Hilton Ruiz

SB: Well, he was much younger than me, 'cause I think he was only fifty-four when he died. We never hung much until the mid-to-late '70s. but we hit it off great 'cause he was a real be-bopper, a real jazz cat. His forte wasn't the Latin side of the shit, though much later he joined Tito Puente's band. It was great playing with him; we did a lot of records and tours together. He was a talented cat, may he rest in peace.

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An Apache Goes Solo

AAJ: You did a couple of albums as a solo artist. Can you talk about how that came about?

SB: That's when our manager/producer at the time [Todd Barkan] who recorded the Apaches during that period approached me after we did two records, because on the Apache records I do all the percussion overdubs.

AAJ: Jerry doesn't hang around in the studio for that?

SB: No. [laughs]. I do it all, and I do most of the mixing too. Then Todd Barkan asked me if I'd be interested in doing a record. I said of course, and I was surprised. I thought, no one is gonna ask me to do a record. Then he said do whatever you want to do. So I had no limitations on the music I wanted to do or the players I wanted to have.

My first record First World (Milestone, 1995) was more like a biography of all the different things that have influenced me and I think it came out pretty good, it's a little different. It's a small group but it sounds big. It's only five people, at the most, playing together at the same time. On the second one And Then Some (Milestone, 1996), I did most of the overdubbing, either percussion or singing or whatever, and surprisingly enough that one was nominated for a Grammy. That record had even less musicians. I liked them both for different reasons.

AAJ: What would those be?

SB: On the second one I had to do more work, I had to do all of it. Some of it sounds a little sloppy 'cause it was rushed, of course after the first one the budget got smaller and it still got nominated for a Grammy. I don't know if that's good or bad [laughs].

AAJ: Well, I guess it's good to know that somebody was listening.

SB: Well, I don't even know about that, I don't know if that's how you get nominated. But both of those records made some noise for a little while. Also, there where two poems that were supposed to be on the second one. There's a poet named Felipe Luciano and...you've heard those right?

AAJ: Yeah, I thought those turned out nice, especially "Madness.

SB: Well, the Fantasy company panicked when they heard those. They refused to put them on the record; they thought they were too controversial. So the record sounds incomplete to me 'cause I was hearing it with those two tunes. The way I was gonna program it, the album would've made more sense. At the same time they were recording some hip-hoppers at the same studio in Berklee where I did all the overdubs. I know where there coming from...but since then no one has offered to record me anymore.

AAJ: Yeah, that's too bad. I think the first record is one of the most versatile records I've heard. Someone with a command of all those idioms, you have the hard-bop stuff, the rumba stuff, Palo tunes.

SB: Well, like I said that was like my musical biography. That's all the stuff I've been influenced by and all the stuff that I do.

AAJ: How did you pick the sidemen for those records?

SB: I just picked all the guys that I wanted to work with and I deliberately left out Andy and Jerry, not because they weren't qualified, but for it not to sound like the Fort Apache Band or for them to take credit for my influences. And they didn't understand that at the time, they felt like they were slighted, but what can I say? Everybody's gotta do what they gotta do. But I deliberately made that decision because I thought people were gonna say, "Aha, I knew Jerry and Andy taught him everything he knows. But I think both of those records have some valid music on them.

AAJ: Most definitely. You mentioned overdubbing in the studio. How do you approach that if you're going to do a multi percussion piece? How do you decide what you're going to lay down first?

SB: It depends on the tune. Like on the rumba tunes I always start with the clavé. On the first record in the studio I had the bassist, the lead singer and the tres player, that was what we laid down. So, on all those rumba tracks it was basically clavé, bass and the lead singer.

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l:r: Steve Berrios, Franciso Aguabella, Julito Collazo, Carlos "Patato" Valdes

AAJ: What about the solo track "Talkin' To Myself ? There's a lot of stuff going on in that and it's all you.

SB: On that one I started with an ostinato on floor toms, and then I laid down the tympani and after that the trap set.

AAJ: Do you hear everything in your head before you lay in down?

SB: Yeah, I heard all that stuff in my head and then I just layered it. I like doing that stuff. It makes things pretty easy because I know what to play on the initial tracks, and what not to play, so I don't step on myself.

AAJ: You also did a version of "Lonely Woman, combined with a Lukumi chant for Yemaya.

SB: The way I laid that was with the batás and the lead singer, then I laid down the tympani, then the bassist came in and then we put the horns on top of that.

AAJ: How did you decide to combine those two tunes?

SB: That's an Ornette Coleman tune. When I first heard it was on his record The Shape Of Jazz To Come (Atlantic, 1960). It always reminded me...it almost has an identical melody to the tune for Yemaya, "Acolona. So I said, "Wow, I think these two tunes would fit. I like that track because I think it has a haunting vibe to it. I'm happy with that one.

AAJ: Around the time you did your solo records you also worked with Chico O'Farrill's big band.

SB: We did a record at that time called Pure Emotion (Milestone, 1995) I thought that was a hip record.

AAJ: How is it different playing with a big band as opposed to a small group?

SB: You have to put yourself in another head. It's a little more rigid than playing with a quintet or something. That was my first big band experience. I've listened to big bands a lot but that was my first time actually playing with one. So I dug that, especially with Chico, may he rest in peace; he was beautiful man, a great arranger.

AAJ: Prior to your solo records you did an instructional video Latin Rhythms Applied To The Drum Set (Alchemy Video, 1992). I've always liked it because it has kind of a loose format.

SB: Well, that's usually my approach in general. Because Mark can't play like Steve and Steve can't play like Mark. I can give you pointers, a direction, to get you to sound more like you. Playing the music that we're playing but...You know, as opposed to—it must be done this way and you have to use matched grip, etc. To me that's not music, because music is personal but it's also impersonal.

You need to leave cats room to find their own voice. If you're gonna imitate every little beat I play, why? For what? What's the purpose of that? When I see some of those videos you're talking about I don't really get anything out of them, maybe because of my approach to life and music in general. A lot of people who are used to a stricter format when they see a video like the one I did they say, "This cat doesn't know what he's doing. I feel sorry for them, because they may never reach their potential.

AAJ: Right you can't sum up a whole style of music in a couple of "beats.

SB: Or in one video. It doesn't go that way. It's a whole life experience; it never stops, so people look at music in that way. It goes back to what we were talking about before, that people think we don't work we "play. But if you play mallets in a symphony orchestra, then that's "serious music, because you have a tux on and you stand real stiff and then you turn a page, and then you wait twenty thousand bars, do another little roll, wait another twenty thousand bars then that's serious music. And on top of that, the funny part about it, is when you take the music away from them they can't play anything. They don't improvise, everything they play was written down five hundred years ago, and some of it is good, but it was meant to be improvised.

AAJ: Yeah, they say Bach improvised on his fugues.

SB: Right. Yeah, but now they just play everything note for note and some of it sounds stale and boring.

AAJ: Not to mention, the composers is really the artist in that situation. The musicians are more like interpreters, they don't put there soul on the line like a jazz musician does.

SB: Right. Yeah, it's weird.

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On Hip-Hop and the Music Biz

AAJ: So what do you think of current state of the music biz? Is it just as corrupt as it's always been?

SB: Yeah, it's still corrupt. It's even gone up a couple of notches since I first started out. But getting beat is getting beat. For instance all the hip-hoppers now get tons of money, deliberately, to keep the music ignorant.

AAJ: Do you think they even realize that?

SB: No, they have no idea. They're so confused they call themselves musicians. That's a joke; that shows you how confused they are. All they got is all this bling and diamonds, but their not saying anything, and they give them all this money to keep the masses ignorant. Because at first when hip-hop came out there were a couple of groups that were saying things that were relevant but they wiped them out. So all you see is this little nonsense now and there's no music happening. And also when they wiped music programs out of the public schools that's how hip-hop came about, because the kids had no instruments, so music has gone backwards thirty or forty years.

I think it's a drag, they should have more music in the schools. But can you imagine those hip-hoppers singing or reciting those same songs, if you want to call them songs, thirty years from now? It's crazy. And not to pat myself on the back, but I think any of the tunes I recorded on my two records, you could play them thirty years from now and they would still be valid. So that makes a difference. I mean, Duke Ellington and all that stuff, it still sounds great today.

AAJ: Well he was a consummate musician, as you well know.

SB: Exactly, he was a musician not a rapper. And I'm not against rappers because that's an old tradition too, you know the African griots, the oral tradition, I respect that. But it has to mean something, you gotta say something. You know James Baldwin, Langston Hughes those were some bad cats. Even in our stuff, the bata, that's a language we're not just making stuff up, it's already set. It's an oral tradition that's been passed down over hundreds of years.

AAJ: And that's a testament to people who came over here through the Middle Passage and were able to hold on to that. Maybe the rappers should take that into consideration.

SB: Yeah, but they can't they're blindfolded. They're pawns, they're being used.

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Epilogue

AAJ: If you were able to have a dream session and put together any group of cats for a recording who would get?

SB: It depends on what kind of music. On my second album I was gonna do a duet piece with Max. He agreed and we were gonna do a drum set duet, but it never materialized. Another thing, I've always had a dream of Elvin Jones and Los Munequitos playing together. I know it would've worked. To have the Munequitos play a rumba and then Elvin play on top, I know that would've been hip. Not that Elvin would have to play authentic rumba beats, but just the way he played, along with what they did, that would've been a motherfucker.

AAJ: What kind of music do you like to listen to for inspiration?

SB: Anything old, like old Blue Note stuff. Sometimes I get in the mood where I don't even listen to any music for awhile. When I want to put something on I either put on something new like Cuban Timba or old Blue Notes or Impulse records for the jazz stuff. I like a lot of Miles, Miles and Gil Evans, that kind of stuff. I don't listen to too much percussion stuff, I like more quiet stuff. I like Brazilian music. Sometimes I put some drum oriented stuff on but usually I like more lyrical stuff just to cool me out.

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