Sonny Rollins and David S. Ware: Sonny Meets David

DSW: ...and you know and also what has to do with the sound is each one of us has a unique vibration you know certain sages say that, we are bundle of vibrations each and everyone of us is a unique bundle of vibrations and over time, well let me say this: that's really what produces the sound, that's projected out of the instrument. Cats have always asked, you know: "how did you develop your sound and so forth and so on? and I say, "you know, I never really worked on it, you know, that's just who I am that's where the sound comes from the sound comes from who you are spiritually, the vibrations, all, each and everyone of us is operating on our own vibrational plan, there are no two human beings that's operating on the same vibrational plan."

FM: Do you have the impression when you play the saxophone that you sing?

SR: Well, I like singers, I like vocalists, you know. I like Nat King Cole and Louis Armstrong and Billie Holiday, and yeah, I'm sure that that comes out to a certain extent, but more probably so in other players than myself. I think other horn plays envision a vocalist probably.

DSW: I think more what is happening is that the soul, through the instrument... the soul is talking through the instrument. That's more what's happening man, the consciousness. The soul is the thing that's speaking. That's why, otherwise if both cats, say two musicians have the same exact instrument as much as possible, even though it's different metal, you know, then give them the same exact mouthpiece and everything, they sound different. They're gone sound different and that difference comes from the self, from who they are. It's clear to me.

FM: I think that Lester Young said that when he was playing, it is like for him, to tell a story.

SR: I think that when people refer to Lester Young telling a story, they might have that sort of mixed up with the fact that he was very close to Billie Holiday and when Lester would play a song for instance, play a song that has lyrics to it, he would think of the lyrics while he was playing the song. I know that a very famous analogy about Lester but also telling a story that's in another sense as well, telling a story or a song with lyrics and sort of doing bad. I mean you can tell a story, some kind of a story, intelligible story without lyrics.

I don't know how I can say it, somebody was critiquing me one time, he was writing a review so he would saying, "Sonny, the way Sonny plays, he asks a question in one thing and then he answers it in the next chorus, so in the next phrase and actually I know what he was talking about." I do that sometimes so I'm telling a story in that sense. So I would say telling a story means whatever style you play, it means being intelligent and intelligible to people listening to you so whatever you are playing they can understand and not just oh gee this guy has a good technics or he's got a beautiful sound. Telling a story means saying something to the people so that they can say, "yeah," like if they were reading a book. That would be my comment about that.

DSW: About story telling sometimes over the past recent years, I got a young cat player coming over who wants to study with me sometimes I tell them you want to get involved in jazz, I tell them "do you have a story to tell, just ask yourself, do you have a story to tell" I feel that's basically what this music is about man, you got a story to tell. You got something that you want to express to the world. That's really something: do you have a story to tell or don't you.

FM: What do you think about that word "jazz ?

SR: Well, I feel that's it's too late now because jazz is such a universal word now, but I think... I don't necessarily feel that it is necessarily negative or anything like that. I mean, I think that is good when people also can say something like "American classical music or "black classical music, you know, any of those other terms are good also and should be used whenever there is an opportunity to do so. But in the meantime, I'm not gonna get myself exercised over the word jazz because it's so... everywhere we look there is the word jazz, you know.

I don't worry about it, but as I said, I think it can also be referred to as black classical music or "African American classical music or any other term... "American classical music because jazz is really "American classical music, so yeah you know jazz is OK with me also but as I said I'd like to see some other names used sometimes in connection with the music. Whatever someone wants to call it that fits is alright but I don't get upset about jazz because it would be exercised in futility.

DSW: From my viewpoint, Sonny, you see what they do with me, man, they love to categorize me. In other words, if they say I'm a great this or great that it's always "avant garde. If you're a great player, a great saxophonist, then you are a great saxophone player. Why do they have to make a distinction you know, avant-garde, Ware he is avant garde this, avant-garde that so as a result it's like always... it's almost like they scare people away, you know. Well (they say) "this music is not for large amounts of people, they won't give us a chance, they prejudice people by using that category of thinking you know...

SR: Yes, right I agree with that, right.

DSW: So it's a problem for us, for me and I hope that somehow the music itself will overcome that.

FM: Of course, there is pop music, rock music, classical music, there is a lot of music. In the USA, what is the importance of jazz music according to you and for the African American people, because there is also rap music. Do African American people recognize really the importance of that tradition, that memory, that culture.

SR: I'm a person that thinks that jazz music is like the umbrella and everything fits under that. So that music is under the umbrella of jazz music. And rhythm and blues, even though it's a strongly distinct music, rhythm and blues players would like to be able to play jazz, most of rhythm and blues players I've met in my career thought of jazz as being the umbrella up over them. And I feel that rap music it's the same in that. It's a form of jazz.

So that's how I feel: jazz is supreme and these other musics are part of it. Rap and the others... You can argue about gospel music if you want as far as instrumental music gospel is not... I mean, gospel players that I met in my career they all thought of jazz as being the next step up from what they are doing. So I feel that jazz is the most advanced form of African American expression in improvisational music. I have to say that jazz is there, everything else is different branches of jazz. But jazz is the top level although I hate to speak in terms of top and bottom and all of that, but I'm trying to be... I'm trying to answer your question as best as I can.

DSW: I think the reason man, that that is true, that jazz serves as an umbrella for different branches of music that're happening in America. And the reason for that is the improvisational aspect of it, it's so heavily relies upon improvisation, man you know. The spontaneous creation of musical ideas, jazz is the ultimate of that.

SR: Yeah...

DSW: And this really need to be brought out, really, you know because this rap thing is so heavy now that you know, that its source needs to be acknowledged at least. And I don't hear it being acknowledged, at least not enough man...

SR: No, I agree with that

DSW: You know I mean, the thing about it, what we were talking about before spirituality running parallel with music, I think a lot of that form of music lacks that, it lacks the spirituality so therefore they are abusing the improvisational aspect of it by calling all this bababa you know and all this kind of stuff. That's not uplifting the situation and that's not putting the talent that they have in the right light. I mean so many cats I feel are very talented, I mean, you know, what they do is not easy, with these spontaneous words, but what I think is that there is a lot of abuse running through it from the lack of spirituality.

SR: I certainly agree with that.

FM: Jazz has an important history, but how do you see its future?

SR: I hope so because I think there is a lot of... just like the essence of jazz you know, it's improvisational you know you do like the creator, there is always something creative, every raindrop is different, so there is always something to do that has not been done in a way that's creative so there is no end to creativity.

DSW: I agree with you.

FM: My last question: Sonny, what would you like to say to David?

SR: Well, I'd like to say to David that I'm very proud that he has stayed with the music all of these years and you know, even though he did not get all of the recognition; that, you know, people tried to pigeonhole him as he was saying and everything and turn you away from the music so I'm very proud that he stayed with the music and believed in it and also that he tries to live a spiritual life of the golden rule, and really, which is equally important as music as it has been said along the conversation they are parallel to each other. So I'm very happy that David has persevered and you know I'm his biggest booster you know...

DSW: Yeah, man, I want to thank you, Sonny, for giving me inspiration and you know really being like a father figure over the years, you know, man, so many cats are being so rapped up in... so many cats, musicians not having a spiritual way of ... being involved in so many things that, so many detoriating things, and you being not one of them, as far as I am concerned and you, as I said in the beginning, being the catalyst of me to get involved into spiritual things. Spiritual knowledge, event though I know that was my destiny for this incarnation. It's just a wonderful thing to have a relationship with you man. I value it a lot you know. So, I want to thank you for this conversation.

Visit David S. Ware and Sonny Rollins on the web.

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Photo Credits
Top photo of David S. Ware: Christian Ducasse
Middle photo of David S. Ware: Ziga Koritnik
Bottom photo of David S. Ware: Jimmy Katz
Photos of Sonny Rollins: Dragan Tasic

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