AF: Alan was known for that. There was a trombonist in Houston who was at that concert the other night; do you know Jimmy Harrison? Tall guy, with a canehe was the baddest trombone player I have ever heard in person. He and Alan Dawson were in the service together and Jimmy had told me about Alan when I was in Texas from '54 to '56. Alan was known for the way he played drums. He was melodic, very clean, and he could swing his butt off. I always used to think of him as a super-clean Philly Joe Jones, because Philly Joe had all kinds of technique too. He was more streetwise with it, though.
AAJ: I'll have to think on that and put it together, but it makes sense to me.
AF: Alan was a very great teacher; he's probably one of the best drum set teachers ever. Philly Joe, Max, Kenny Clarke actually came out of Cozy Cole, and they all worked out of that Charlie Wilcoxon bookRollin' in Rhythm, Swingin' the Rudimentsand I got the chance to spend a night with Kenny Clarke and Cozy Cole much later. I was like "whew!" [chuckles], best time I ever had! I sat there and just listened to all their stories.
Now, where was I?
AAJ: We were getting around to a philosophy of percussion through all these folks. We were at Alan Dawson, though.
AF: He turned out a lot of great students, and I'm not familiar with his method but whatever it was, most everybody that actually came from him wound up very good.
AAJ: I think they're teaching a way of life, and this comes back to the Valerie Wilmer book [As Serious as Your Life (Serpent's Tail, 1980)], being around somebody like Blackwell or Denis Charles, if not assimilating the exact musical patterns, that their way of living translated to music.
AF: That's another thing, you are your environment. After '52, I wasn't around Blackwell very much, but we kept in touch and he'd send me letters. I'd see him from time to time at festivals and such, and what we'd do is go over stuff. I have his letters, and I go through them still and I play a lot of his things, but not like him. Actually, Blackwell was a school unto himself. I love him, but I never tried to pattern myself after him. I guess I patterned myselfwell, I listened to Max Roach more than Blackwell. I listened to Billy Higgins more than Blackwell. The early Art Blakeynow, all these drummers had various stages. There was a Tony Williams part, a Max thing, and I pick out certain phases of their playing because we all change.
AAJ: One can glean a lot from certain aspects of somebody's teaching and put it into their own canon, without necessarily having the rest of it be helpful.
AF: You know, Tony Williams, I heard a lot of Jimmy Cobb in his cymbal work early on. I heard a little bit of Kenny Clarke, I heard some of Max Roach, and I heard a lot of Roy Haynes.
AAJ: Yeah, definitely, that was my first estimation. Could you explain "digging coal?" I've heard this bandied about with drummers before.
AF: Those were the drummers back in the '20s who played just a snare drum or a variation of the cymbal pattern on the snaressshh-bop, ssshh-bopon the snare drum. Kenny Clarke always referred to it by that, "digging coal." In talking to Kenny, he mentioned a drummer that's very seldom talked about, by the name of Cuba Austin. He was with the McKinney Cotton-Pickers, a territory band of the Midwest. He was their drummer at one time, and Kenny Clarke mentioned that he had heard him play the cymbals throughout a song. He hadn't heard other drummers do that at the time, and that stuck with him.
Of course, CubaI talked to some drummers who had heard his stuffhe was a good drummer, but he just never made that breakthrough. I don't know that much about him family-wise, but he worked in that band, which was very popular at the time. However, it wasn't like being in the Basie band or the Bennie Moten band, or Duke's band.
AAJ: It was more like a proving ground for people who would go on to do other things.
AF: It was one of the better territory bands at that time, but I don't know if they played New York. They usually played the Midwest, so you didn't get the chance to hear them on the radio. I don't have any records by them (somebody like Kenny Washington probably does), but I really would like to hear it.
AAJ: I know I've seen collections of those recordings aroundwhether or not the drummer is Cuba, I don't know.
AF: That actually stuck in Kenny Clarke's mind, because when you think about it, Papa Jo Jones, Kenny Clarke, you gather they're about the same age. Kenny Clarke spent some time in Kansas City, and I've heard things written about Papa Jo where his cymbal patterns bounce pretty much like Kenny Clarke's. Kenny Clarke had a beautiful cymbal patternmy God!
AAJ: And he was getting it from these interesting sources, it sounds like.
AF: Well, you know, it's not just the sound, but the conception of playing. Of course, the cymbal was a timekeeper instead of the bass drum. That was what he got from it. I'm sure that Kenny Clarke had some other influences there, but he mentioned Cuba and that left something for me to find out about. He must've been a little older than Klook. He was probably born in the 1890s or something about that, maybe 1900.
But it's a conception thing, and I'm finding that drummers like Roy HaynesI was watching him last night, whew! This was BET on Jazz, and he was in the Chick Corea band with Joshua Redman and Terence Blanchard and Christian McBride. They were playing all these Bud Powell things, you know, and oh he sounded good!
Alvin at Willowridge High School - 2005 workshop organized by Nameless Sound
AAJ: There was that trio with Danilo Perez and John Pattitucci a few years ago that was also something else. This would've been 2000-2001 or so.
AF: The thing with Miroslav Vitous and Chick Corea, Now He Sings Now He Sobs (Solid State, 1968), that was fine. There was another one Roy did with Phineas Newborn, called We Three (1958), on Prestige. Roy is a good all-around drummer, and the way he uses his bass drums, cymbals, snares, he's dancing around the snare drum and off of the cymbals, and then he hits the bass drumwhew!
AAJ: It's interesting too, because he can step away slightly and play nearly free-time, with Andrew Hill in the early '60s, he was...
AF: I can go further back than that on you! Miles Davis did a thing called "Morpheus" on Prestige. He had Bennie Green, John Lewis and Percy Heath on it, and you should hear itRoy's playing all across the bar lines, the first really free drumming I'd heard. If you get a chance to hear it, Sonny Rollins was playing as well, and Miles was loose, loose, loose! It's by John Lewis, a beautiful thing, just free and loose. If you heard it right now, I think you would say "when was that made?" It was done probably in the early 50s. It's beautiful!
So, Royout of Max, Kenny Clarke and Blakeywas always the loosest. Another drummer that was really nice and loose is Jack DeJohnette. Also Al Foster, you knowwhew!
AAJ: As far as the post-Max, post-Philly Joe drummers, I've always been fond of J.C. Moses, even though he's a little later.
AF: I knew him. He was a bit out of the Blakey thing, too. He was from Pittsburgh, and I don't know what they put in the water there, but God they turn out drummers like mad! I'd like to meet a drummer there by the name of Joe Harris; are you familiar with him?
AAJ: No, not really.
AF: He took Max's place with Bird, and Kenny Clarke's place with Dizzy Gillespie. He did a record date with Teddy Charles, Art Farmer, and Gigi Gryceand those arrangements, man!
AAJ: Oh, was that the Teddy Charles Tentet (Atlantic, 1956)? Then I do know him. I just forgot.
AF: Well you need to go back and listen to him. I'm jumping around, but there's a way of listening that I always try to tell my students. When you get into any record album, I usually listen to each part first, listening to the album about four or five times. Then I put it all together after I've got the form of the tune and everything. You have to listen to the whole thing after that. CD's are not meant to be listened to and put on the shelf. You really haven't heard itnot until you've got it. You don't have to be a musician to do that.
AAJ: I tend to start with the whole and then take it apart, but...
AF: I pick one thing out first. The first thing I listen to is the drummer, of course, once the melody plays. Then I listen to the piano and bass play it, then the horn players, and then I'll listen to the whole thing. Now, I'm sure trumpet players would say they listen to the trumpet first, and it's left up to the person, I guess, how they choose.
I think about Billy Higgins; we're about the same age andman, people had told me about him. Teddy Edwards, the tenor player, he told me about Billy from one of his first jobs, along with Leroy Vinnegar and a pianist, Joe Castro or Arthur Hillary, who lived out in Los Angeles. Hillary was a great player and taught school in Dallas for a while, actually. Billy Higgins was the young guy in the band, and that might have been his first recording date, I don't know. It would've been for Contemporary.
Every time Teddy came back here, he'd bring his book and I'd often play with him. Eddie Harris, Clifford JordanI'd play with all of them, and they had a lot of music and would always bring it with them. I got a chance to hear Billy early on, and I loved his playing! But you know, Billy Higgins went through various schools. His inspiration was really Kenny Clarke. You remember the first album that was done by the Modern Jazz Quartet? "All the Things You Are," "La Ronde," which was really "Two Bass Hit," Billy always told me that was the thing that inspired him. When I heard that, I knew my sound was going to come from that. It's a beautiful thing, man, and Kenny Clarke plays so beautifully!
Everybody is asleep on Kenny Clarke, and I read Modern Drummer every month and they have a calendar of birthdays. They didn't mention Baby Dodds, they didn't mention Kenny Clarke, they mentioned Roy Haynes, Jimmy Cobb, and Max Roach but not Philly Joe. They didn't even mention Big Sid Catlett, so I called them up and they wouldn't let me speak to anybody. I called several times and they don't know shit about drummers, let me tell you. They don't even know about drumming! It really pisses me offI mean really!
AAJ: Baby Dodds' birthday is this month, right?
AF: Yes, I believe he's a Sagittariuswell, December 24, 1898, so he's a Capricorn.
Listen to this: Big Sid Catlett, Art Blakey, Jo Jones, Philly Joe Jones, they mentioned Elvin, didn't mention Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette, Blackwell, Billy Higgins, Shelly Manne, Baby Dodds, Sunny Murray or Andrew Cyrille.
AAJ: [laughing] So who did they mention? There aren't many people left!
AF: Well, Elvin and they didn't mention but about four jazz drummers, if I'm thinking right.
AAJ: And a lot of rock drummers were listening to the jazz drummers anyway, so it would make sense to mention more than a couple.
AF: You know, they listed Ricky Morales and Tre Cool and Alex Acuña, Sheila Escovedo and Dave Clark, Idris Muhammad. They also mentioned Billy Hart and Adam Nussbaum because they were born November 29. None of the people listed hereI don't know who put this list together, and that was the reason I called them. It's Modern Drummer, The World's #1 Drum Magazine, and I have every issue. I read it, even though it's one of the worst publications I do read, among Jazz Times, Down Beat, Cadence, The Wire, All About Jazz New York, and a few others. Man, I'm going to cancel my subscriptionwhoever does the writing, they don't need to be drummers but more than likely they aren't anyway.
AAJ: It's funny, I was just listening to the Baby Dodds solo record on Folkways the other day [Talking and Drum Solos (1959)], where he plays all those nerve beats.
AF: Did you hear him play "Tea for Two?" Shades of Max Roach! He hadn't heard Max, but the way he played it whew! The funny thing is, older drummersolder musicians, I should sayit may sound antiquated, but in the time it was done... That's the thing, you've got to put yourself back there mentally.
AAJ: ...which is hard to do sometimes.
AF: Yes it is, unless you are a student of the history of the music. It's not a very old music jazz is a little over a hundred years old.
AAJ: There are still a lot of people in the world who are older than jazz, if you think about it.
AF: Yeah, right, so it's a young music, America's contribution to the world of fine art, and everybody's trying to play the music all over the world. It's creative, and it couldn't have happened anyplace else. It couldn't have happened in Africa, Europe, Iceland, it couldn't have happened anyplace else except America. As Art Blakey said, "no America, no jazz." When you think about it, the only instrument that's actually been created in this country is the drum set. Drummers prior to 1893-1895 had to just play the drums with their hands and not with their feet. Cymbals from Turkey, tom-toms from Africa, snare from Europe, and somebody had the zeal and imagination to put them all together, even if they didn't play anything except quarter-notes everyplace.
If you think of a drum soloist like Max Roach, Max uses so much of the drums but he didn't get credit. People talk about the world's greatest drummer being Buddy Richa great drummer, sure, but when you look at the musicality of the drums, (and it's got to be a musical instrumentthey do play music) Max Roach, even though I love Kenny Clarke and he fathered it, Max took it out there. I have video with Max Roach, Art Blakey and Elvin Jones on it. Godboy, mmh! He was Art Blakey's daddy and Elvin Jones' granddaddy! [laughs]
AAJ: The three of them playing together in a conference?
AF: Well, first they played separately, then they played together with their various groups. Then of course Art and Max played with Elvin's group, and Elvin and Max with the Messengers, and it was all mixed up. It was done in Germany I think.
AAJ: Max is not well right now, right?
AF: No, he's in a nursing home. He was at a thing for the New Orleans people, and he was in a wheelchair. I talked to various people in New York and I've written him cards, he hasn't written back of course. Max was very good to me; I got a chance to really know Max I guess maybe fifteen or seventeen years ago. Max always gave me a lot of respect and I always respected him. He was probably the dominant factor in my life after my father and grandfather. I used to write Max when I first started playing. I got Max's mother's address and what I'd do is ask him various things, how he practiced and what books he practiced out of, and he never answered of course.
Every drummer I've talked to has said the same thing: they listen to Max. A close second was Blakey, and I used to talk to Vernel Fournier all the time. I used to talk to Wilbur Campbell all the time.
AAJ: Vernel is someone I've only recently come to know about, but whenever I talk to drummers, his name seems to come up somewhere in the conversation.
AF: He was an amazing drummer! I met him in Chicago in the '50s, and he was with Ahmad Jamal. All the drummers would go down to The Pershing to watch him playDeJohnette, Steve McCallbecause he was so clean and polished, and he was just the perfect gentleman. He didn't have bad habits and he was very nice to people. After he had a stroke, he moved to Jackson [Mississippi] because he had a son and daughter there.
After I found out about it, I would go over to his house practically every day. I used to take him to dinner and go out to shows, bring him CDs and stuff, talk to him, and I was close to him for about two years. I was on my way to Finland to work the Tampere Jazz Happening with Kidd Jordan and Joel Futterman, and I was with him that Thursday night about ten o'clock (I was leaving that Friday morning) and he wanted me to carry his cymbals. "Aw, man, I'm already packed up and everything."
I got to Finland Friday, we closed the festival Saturday night, and I was talking to Jack DeJohnette (he was there with John Surman) backstage about little things, and of course Vernel came up. When I got back to New Orleans, the first thing I heard was that he had passed on Saturday night. The timeline was about fifteen or twenty minutes before we went on stage.
AAJ: So he'd wanted you to take his cymbals as in take them.
AF: Well, he wanted to know if I wanted to take them over so I could play them. I had packed up everything, and he took sick the next day after I had left. That Friday morning his daughter came and took him to the hospital about eleven o'clock and he went to sleephe was in a coma. He never woke up and they pulled the plug on him.
He was a friend. If you noticed me playing brushes on Saturday night, a lot of those were his brush strokes that he told me about. He didn't show me how to play them, but he told me about them. If you noticed the first thing I played with mallets, I played part of Max's Drum Conversation (Enja, 1960). But, I try to play something in every concert that's dedicated to a drummer. I don't tell people, but sometimes it's Ed Blackwell, sometimes it's Billy Higgins, sometimes it's Max, Roy Haynes, you know.
I miss Vernel, I miss Blackwell, Billy HigginsBilly and I would talk all the time, maybe once a month. We never talked about drums, but we talked about old drummers. Max and I, we'd do the same thing and talk about drummers like Shadow Wilson. Vernel and I talked about him too. Right now I'm talking to a drummer by the name of James Slaughter. I don't know if you know him but he was Andrew Hill's first drummer in Chicago. They worked together with Malachi Favors.
AAJ: They had that trio that recorded for Warwick (So In Love, 1958).
AF: Right. He's the one that taught me the rudiments, and then of course there was another drummer named Arthur Edgehill. He was full of history! The first time I went to New York in 1954, [other students were] going to drug manufacturing plants and I went to Birdland and he was the first New York drummer I saw in person. Let me tell you something, Art Edgehill was playing with Oscar Pettiford, Julius Watkins, Phil Urso (a tenor player with Woody Herman; he's still living). Art was on drums, and he always stuck in my mind and I started to look for him about ten years ago. He quit playing drums maybe 35-40 years ago.
AAJ: I know he played with Kenny Dorham a bit in the '50s.
AF: That's right, the Jazz Prophets with J.R. Monterose, Sam Jones and Bobby Timmons. He was with Shirley Scott; he was with Dinah Washington a long time also, and with Teddy Wilson's trio. He was in the original Horace Silver Quartet with Doug Watkins and Hank Mobley. They got Art Blakey for the recording date, but you know... a very beautiful guy, man, he's 79 now. I talk to him oftenI found him through the saxophonist Charles Davis. Charles was down here and I took him to dinner, and Edgehill came up. Charles said "I used to play with him in Dinah Washington's band! If you're looking for him, I know a drummer named Jimmy Wormworth, and he talks to him all the time. I'll give you his number."
Alvin at Willowridge High School - 2005 workshop organized by Nameless Sound
I called him and, man he's so full of history! He is that link because he knew Kenny Clarke, Max, Blakey, Philly Joe. He's a real nice cat, he lived in Brooklyn and he's one of the Brooklyn guyshe brought up cats I'd never heard of. There was a trumpet player he talked about who was just as bad as Kenny Dorham. I've only seen one record with him on it by Dexter GordonI don't know, maybe he died youngbut full of history man! Somebody really needs to talk to him, because he's a whole book, really. He knew Oscar Pettiford and he knew Horace early on, Hank Mobley, Kenny Clarke. He lives in Deltona, Florida, which is a suburb of Daytona Beach.
He moved from New York to the Poconos to raise his family, and his daughter is an instructor at Delaware State. He's got a beautiful wife and for a little while he moved to Barbados where his parents are from. He might actually be from Barbados. His wife's brother is a pharmacist, so Arthur and he bought a drugstore in New York, and then later he moved to Florida.
Now, somebody needs to catch himhe's a great help, and he's got stories galore. Somebody could write a bookI talk to him all the time, and the stories about Charlie Parker, Miles and Max, there's just stories, man!
AAJ: It's funny to me, the people who haven't recorded a whole lot may transmit the history a little better than the ones who are hugely well-known.
AF: Let me tell you something. On his birthday, I sent him copies of all the things he was on with Shirley Scott and Lockjaw Davis, and the Kenny Dorham thing. I'm looking for another Kenny Dorham Jazz Prophets that he did on ABC-Paramount. He didn't have it; he didn't even have the Blue Note thing. I sent him my copy of that, and I sent him the Prestige things as well. So this Christmas I've got to think of something.