The welcome screen for Discovr, the first app released by Dave McKinney's company, Jammbox.
The process of looking for new music has always been at least partially visual. Whether it's an interesting album cover at a record store, or a cool band photo on a blog, visual cues help us organize and process audio signals.
But that's only part of the reason why Discovr, a music discovery app created by Jammbox, is so interesting.
Discovr is the top-selling music appin 12 countries, and one of the top three in 30. It uses the Echo Nest's API to create a kind of recommendation tree, where the name of one artist you like leads to five or six more, arranged in lines and circles. Each entry has links to biographical information, blog posts, YouTube videos, and more.
I grabbed some time with Dave McKinney, Jammbox's founder and Discovr's creator, over Skype earlier this week to discuss how data could start replacing human curation, how popular music apps can get, and more. This is part one, and both parts have been edited for content, clarity, and space considerations.
WAMM: I was looking at your profile on LinkedIn, and you have had a crazy life—you've been a marine biologist, music producer, recording artist, and now you are the head of a very successful music app. Could you just give me and the readers a very brief kind of biography I guess, and how you went from A to B to C to D?
Dave McKinney: Sure. Okay, so firstly I'll qualify everything with saying that I know a little bit about a lot, [laughs] not necessarily a lot about everything.
I've been very lucky to experience lots of different things. And I guess the thing that drives me the most as a person is that I like to learn. So, as long as I'm learning, I'm happy. And there's a lot to learn in this world, and there's lots of different things to learn about.
I actually went to uni and I was studying marine biology. This was back in '91. And I did a year of that, and then I went and lived in Brazil for a year, and that sort of set me on a different path. So that really got me into making music. So I came back and did another year of uni, and by the end of that I decided to ditch Uni, and go headlong into music. So then I started learning to play drums and other bits and pieces, and then playing with bands and making records, and producing. So I did that for like 10-15 years, and I toured around, and I had a lot of fun. That was what I did, that was my thing. And then after that, I still had this sort of urge to come back to Marine Biology. It's always been a part of me—I grew up sort of on the coast, spending a lot of time in the ocean. I was very into the quantitative data analyses that go with large datasets, and looking at how we can understand nature using maths and science to better understand nature. So I went back to Uni, and finished off my degree and I got a job with the Federal government working as a Marine Biologist. It was great, incredible. We'd go diving everyday for months, out at sea on a research vessel, and collecting data. And then we'd come back and we'd you know sit in the lab on the computers and look at those data and process them for months. And then, all of the time I was doing that, I was still doing music and you know technology-based stuff in science.
McKinney, on the cover of one of his band's albums
So this is 2004-ish?
DM: I guess I did music until 2005. Then I think I finished off my degree. Then I worked for three years as a marine biologist for the government. Straight. And during that time, you know, I always had my eye on develo
pments in music and tech, because you know it was my background, you know. I always was in the music space and I've always had a very musician-oriented slant on what I do with music. So while I was doing science I was watching the developments in music and tech, and I was always trying to find a way for the music industry to be happy and healthy again. From an artist's perspective, I've always wanted to create things. But the industry in recent years has really suffered a lot. It's hard as an artist to make money. It's hard for the industry to make money around the music as well, and I guess I was looking at different ways that technology could be used to help that situation. And so I quite my job as a marine scientist 6 months ago, or mid-year last year, so now almost 9 months ago now. And then I started jumping into the technology side again. And I tried a bunch of different ideas that I then killed subsequently—it's hard to find a way to grow a business around tech and stuff. Then towards the end of the year, I guess December really, you know Discovr started to bubble up out of the ether I guess. So we've just quickly followed on that. And there are other things we're working on as well, but that's basically the full cycle. (Sorry for the long-winded story)
So your interest in data sets and stuff is rather long-standing. Is that how you found the Echo Nest?
Definitely. For me, in looking at the space, that was a really good fit. They're dealing with big data, and what they're trying to do is reduce that data into formats that are more readily digestible or that you can do something interesting with. So for me, that was a perfect fit.
I guess what we're trying to do with Discovr, and with the company in general, is take complex data or complex things in the real world and make them more simple for users. I think that this approach applies to all things in the world, but specifically to apps in the mobile space. If you look at most of the successful apps, they're basically very simple, they do one thing only, and they do it beautifully. And I think that's a really good fit for the devices and the technology and the way that the users actually interact with those devices.
Typically with mobile phones, with the iPhone, there are people dipping in and out for short periods of time—lots of people call that “snacking." And so they need something that's simple and easy to use and fun, for a short period of time. Now if you take that one step further, and you look at the tablets, we're seeing new types of consumer behavior emerging, a whole switch from the lean forward to the lean backward consumption mode. That's a new type of behavior. In the lean back mode, we're seeing the users are much more engaged, the session times within the applications are much longer; all these different measures of engagement with the content are much higher in those types of tablet devices. So I look at the music industry, which has suffered terribly in recent years, but we're seeing these new types of consumer behavior and I think that's a really interesting intersection, and perhaps we can create something viable there, as a business that's good for the users, and that you can grow a company around.
To me, that stuff about tablet use recalls our engagement with more traditional types of media, like magazines or television. And what's interesting there is that you and the Echo Nest are using 21st century data processing to create a 21st century replacement for old-fashioned, traditional human curation, which is then consumed in old-fashioned, traditional time increments.
Right. There are two really interesting points here. Let's first tackle the Echo Nest. And I agree with you—I think that they are doing something that hasn't been done before, and in a very powerful way. There's a little meme going round at the moment, which is that hackers and APIs and developers are the new A&R. Now I'm not sure if you've seen that being kicked around, but I think it's an extremely valid hypothesis that developers and hackers and companies like the Echo Nest and the apps that they facilitate are going to be like the gatekeepers for the music industry. And it's where real breakthroughs can happen. Some solo-developer in partnership with the EchoNest can build an application that can suddenly expose fans to all new artists or expose an artist to millions of fans.
And traditionally that was the domain of A&R and record labels, and the established physical product distribution channels. And now we're seeing that it's very much democratized and companies like the Echo Nest are actually allowing that to happen for the first time, in a meaningful way for the users. It's a great idea to do it, but you've got to actually have the data and the skills to back it up. And for the first time companies like the Echonest really are making that happen in very developer-friendly way. And the second point was...what were we talking about?
Two taps on Discovr present users with all the information that magazine features used to contain.
Leaning back and modeling on old world...
Right, exactly. And again I think you're bang on the money there. A lot of people are talking about tablets as being a new type of device that brings the best of the old media that have been around for a long time. Books and magazines and newspapers, as a format, have been proven. People use them, buy them, engage with them in their work. They'll also work on the business side—advertisers can effectively deliver a brand and get user engagement with that brand.
And I guess what's exciting about what we're seeing with the tablets is there might be a way to do the analog of those—I shouldn't say analog, it's digital!—but the copy of those, in the digital space. It's very effective. You can deal with mass consumption with very low distribution costs, and in a very rich and interactive way. One of the projects we're working on is magazine format-style apps that deliver content in the music space, and I think we're seeing great response from users about these new types of media delivery. But at the same time, I think it's very much under-explored. No one's really figured it out quite yet, but a lot of people are experimenting, so it's an exciting time for the users, as there's a lot of great apps coming out. Everyone's trying to find a model that works, and then ultimately you need create a business around it so you can continue to grow it, and make that experience richer.
If you look at the music industry, it's not that easy to extract money from users to buy music these days. It's quite tricky. However, what is interesting is that people are spending money on applications based around music. So we think that that's a fundamental shift, and it's exciting for the industry and it's exciting for companies like us. We think we can monetize experiences that are created around the music. It may be difficult to monetize the music itself right now. However, we think that we can deliver great experiences around the music, and that those experiences will be paid for, and that allows us to build a business, and deliver new, more interesting experiences as regard to this.
Check out part two of this interview tomorrow!
The process of looking for new music has always been at least partially visual. Whether it's an interesting album cover at a record store, or a cool band photo on a blog, visual cues help us organize and process audio signals.
But that's only part of the reason why Discovr, a music discovery app created by Jammbox, is so interesting.
Discovr is the top-selling music appin 12 countries, and one of the top three in 30. It uses the Echo Nest's API to create a kind of recommendation tree, where the name of one artist you like leads to five or six more, arranged in lines and circles. Each entry has links to biographical information, blog posts, YouTube videos, and more.
I grabbed some time with Dave McKinney, Jammbox's founder and Discovr's creator, over Skype earlier this week to discuss how data could start replacing human curation, how popular music apps can get, and more. This is part one, and both parts have been edited for content, clarity, and space considerations.
WAMM: I was looking at your profile on LinkedIn, and you have had a crazy life—you've been a marine biologist, music producer, recording artist, and now you are the head of a very successful music app. Could you just give me and the readers a very brief kind of biography I guess, and how you went from A to B to C to D?
Dave McKinney: Sure. Okay, so firstly I'll qualify everything with saying that I know a little bit about a lot, [laughs] not necessarily a lot about everything.
I've been very lucky to experience lots of different things. And I guess the thing that drives me the most as a person is that I like to learn. So, as long as I'm learning, I'm happy. And there's a lot to learn in this world, and there's lots of different things to learn about.
I actually went to uni and I was studying marine biology. This was back in '91. And I did a year of that, and then I went and lived in Brazil for a year, and that sort of set me on a different path. So that really got me into making music. So I came back and did another year of uni, and by the end of that I decided to ditch Uni, and go headlong into music. So then I started learning to play drums and other bits and pieces, and then playing with bands and making records, and producing. So I did that for like 10-15 years, and I toured around, and I had a lot of fun. That was what I did, that was my thing. And then after that, I still had this sort of urge to come back to Marine Biology. It's always been a part of me—I grew up sort of on the coast, spending a lot of time in the ocean. I was very into the quantitative data analyses that go with large datasets, and looking at how we can understand nature using maths and science to better understand nature. So I went back to Uni, and finished off my degree and I got a job with the Federal government working as a Marine Biologist. It was great, incredible. We'd go diving everyday for months, out at sea on a research vessel, and collecting data. And then we'd come back and we'd you know sit in the lab on the computers and look at those data and process them for months. And then, all of the time I was doing that, I was still doing music and you know technology-based stuff in science.
McKinney, on the cover of one of his band's albums
So this is 2004-ish?
DM: I guess I did music until 2005. Then I think I finished off my degree. Then I worked for three years as a marine biologist for the government. Straight. And during that time, you know, I always had my eye on develo
pments in music and tech, because you know it was my background, you know. I always was in the music space and I've always had a very musician-oriented slant on what I do with music. So while I was doing science I was watching the developments in music and tech, and I was always trying to find a way for the music industry to be happy and healthy again. From an artist's perspective, I've always wanted to create things. But the industry in recent years has really suffered a lot. It's hard as an artist to make money. It's hard for the industry to make money around the music as well, and I guess I was looking at different ways that technology could be used to help that situation. And so I quite my job as a marine scientist 6 months ago, or mid-year last year, so now almost 9 months ago now. And then I started jumping into the technology side again. And I tried a bunch of different ideas that I then killed subsequently—it's hard to find a way to grow a business around tech and stuff. Then towards the end of the year, I guess December really, you know Discovr started to bubble up out of the ether I guess. So we've just quickly followed on that. And there are other things we're working on as well, but that's basically the full cycle. (Sorry for the long-winded story)
So your interest in data sets and stuff is rather long-standing. Is that how you found the Echo Nest?
Definitely. For me, in looking at the space, that was a really good fit. They're dealing with big data, and what they're trying to do is reduce that data into formats that are more readily digestible or that you can do something interesting with. So for me, that was a perfect fit.
I guess what we're trying to do with Discovr, and with the company in general, is take complex data or complex things in the real world and make them more simple for users. I think that this approach applies to all things in the world, but specifically to apps in the mobile space. If you look at most of the successful apps, they're basically very simple, they do one thing only, and they do it beautifully. And I think that's a really good fit for the devices and the technology and the way that the users actually interact with those devices.
Typically with mobile phones, with the iPhone, there are people dipping in and out for short periods of time—lots of people call that “snacking." And so they need something that's simple and easy to use and fun, for a short period of time. Now if you take that one step further, and you look at the tablets, we're seeing new types of consumer behavior emerging, a whole switch from the lean forward to the lean backward consumption mode. That's a new type of behavior. In the lean back mode, we're seeing the users are much more engaged, the session times within the applications are much longer; all these different measures of engagement with the content are much higher in those types of tablet devices. So I look at the music industry, which has suffered terribly in recent years, but we're seeing these new types of consumer behavior and I think that's a really interesting intersection, and perhaps we can create something viable there, as a business that's good for the users, and that you can grow a company around.
To me, that stuff about tablet use recalls our engagement with more traditional types of media, like magazines or television. And what's interesting there is that you and the Echo Nest are using 21st century data processing to create a 21st century replacement for old-fashioned, traditional human curation, which is then consumed in old-fashioned, traditional time increments.
Right. There are two really interesting points here. Let's first tackle the Echo Nest. And I agree with you—I think that they are doing something that hasn't been done before, and in a very powerful way. There's a little meme going round at the moment, which is that hackers and APIs and developers are the new A&R. Now I'm not sure if you've seen that being kicked around, but I think it's an extremely valid hypothesis that developers and hackers and companies like the Echo Nest and the apps that they facilitate are going to be like the gatekeepers for the music industry. And it's where real breakthroughs can happen. Some solo-developer in partnership with the EchoNest can build an application that can suddenly expose fans to all new artists or expose an artist to millions of fans.
And traditionally that was the domain of A&R and record labels, and the established physical product distribution channels. And now we're seeing that it's very much democratized and companies like the Echo Nest are actually allowing that to happen for the first time, in a meaningful way for the users. It's a great idea to do it, but you've got to actually have the data and the skills to back it up. And for the first time companies like the Echonest really are making that happen in very developer-friendly way. And the second point was...what were we talking about?
Two taps on Discovr present users with all the information that magazine features used to contain.
Leaning back and modeling on old world...
Right, exactly. And again I think you're bang on the money there. A lot of people are talking about tablets as being a new type of device that brings the best of the old media that have been around for a long time. Books and magazines and newspapers, as a format, have been proven. People use them, buy them, engage with them in their work. They'll also work on the business side—advertisers can effectively deliver a brand and get user engagement with that brand.
And I guess what's exciting about what we're seeing with the tablets is there might be a way to do the analog of those—I shouldn't say analog, it's digital!—but the copy of those, in the digital space. It's very effective. You can deal with mass consumption with very low distribution costs, and in a very rich and interactive way. One of the projects we're working on is magazine format-style apps that deliver content in the music space, and I think we're seeing great response from users about these new types of media delivery. But at the same time, I think it's very much under-explored. No one's really figured it out quite yet, but a lot of people are experimenting, so it's an exciting time for the users, as there's a lot of great apps coming out. Everyone's trying to find a model that works, and then ultimately you need create a business around it so you can continue to grow it, and make that experience richer.
If you look at the music industry, it's not that easy to extract money from users to buy music these days. It's quite tricky. However, what is interesting is that people are spending money on applications based around music. So we think that that's a fundamental shift, and it's exciting for the industry and it's exciting for companies like us. We think we can monetize experiences that are created around the music. It may be difficult to monetize the music itself right now. However, we think that we can deliver great experiences around the music, and that those experiences will be paid for, and that allows us to build a business, and deliver new, more interesting experiences as regard to this.
Check out part two of this interview tomorrow!
