Interview with Joe Lovano

This interview was first published at All About Jazz in 1996.

All About Jazz: The author of the liner notes of your latest release Quartets suggests that the current trend in jazz is towards a dialogue between the avant-garde and the tradition. How do you interpret that?

Joe Lovano: Well, I don't know if the current styles at any given time are what make people play. Individual experience, individual inspiration and your personal history is what makes the music that you create. It's what makes the music yours, your own. In jazz there's a lot of people that through the history have always followed trends or tried to play in a certain style pioneered by others, like bebop or swing or hard bop or free. But musicians who are trying to be creative and play music... you can't put yourself in one bag or another. You have be free and loose and interactive with the players you're playing with. For me, I've been playing with some of the greatest creative musicians in jazz. And I've learned how to play from that experience. Take a group like the one I'm with tonight, with Billy Hart on drums. He has an amazing history. He has heard John Coltrane play. He's played with Miles Davis. He's been on the scene forever, and he's played in some of the most hard-hitting, creative bands, you know? To play with him and interact with him, you've got to be on your toes, and free and open and loose and able to create rhythm and melody together with somebody. So I've become who I am by learning to interact with other creative musicians. It's the sum of many individual experiences with other musicians.

AAJ: Yeah, there's some very impressive interplay in your quartet.

JL: Complete interplay, yeah. That's the whole thing with this band. Tom Harrell on trumpet, again, has such a rich history in playing songs, playing tunes, playing forms. So when we improvise together, that's what we do: we create forms. We get into creating form, melody, and harmony, together. We're trying to play lines that swirl around each other. And with Anthony Cox, as well, on bass. When we play in bands and all the cats are coming from a deep place harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically, then all of a sudden the music is open. You can create different textures and colors together. And the music is true to the musicians, rather than the other way around. For me, that's the direction that I want to play in all of the time. And whatever the groove is, whatever the beat might might be around that doesn't even matter. It could be tippin,' and swinging really hard, or it could be really open pulse-wise, and atmospheric. To have your concept be open melodically and harmonically... it lets you make things happen.

AAJ: Well, it's interesting because Pinken has a point in your liner notes. Many musicians from the "outside" are playing in the tradition these days, reinterpreting past styles of jazz. They seem to be trying to reconstruct past styles with more open forms.

JL: Sure, I mean to really improvise, you have to study the history of the music. The best free players are the ones who are coming from playing tunes, for me. Cats who play free first, and don't come from playing songs, play the same solo on every tune. They're not coming from playing harmony. They're just coming from playing sounds. The rich harmonic base in music is half the invention in playing. The sounds, they've opened up music and expanded the range of expression in jazz, but the harmonic base still plays an important role. Rhythm and harmony.

AAJ: One interesting thing about your playing is that you've been firmly rooted in both straight and free styles throughout your career. Could you describe your beginnings a bit?

JL: Yeah, my dad played saxophone. So I grew listening to him all of the time and studying with him. And he grew up in the bebop and swing era. He just hipped me to all styles, you know? I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, where Tadd Dameron was from. He was one of the originators of bebop. And Albert Ayler was from Cleveland, too. One of the originators of really powerful freer styles, serious sonic power in music. So I was aware of a lot of different concepts while I was growing up. It's really influenced me.

AAJ: And was your instruction also rooted in those different styles?

JL: It was really total bebop for a long time. I grew into developing my technique and freeing that up into freer styles later. I was listening to the music and hearing it around the house, but all of my earlier studies were learning songs. I was playing standard songs and bebop. You know, studying Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. basically. And that gave me not only technique, but it gave me ideas and taught me about form. And then when I got into freer playing, and had to create form, I was into it already.

AAJ: And you eventually went to Berklee to study music...

JL: Yeah, I went to Boston after high school in 1971.

AAJ: What kind of trends were influencing you and your peers at the time?

JL: Well, you know, at that time in the early '70s I went there already playing. I worked throughout high school and paid my way to go to college playing gigs. So I was already playing really strong in jazz. Strong. I don't mean I was playing GOOD! But, I was into it, you know what I mean? I was playing LOUD!

AAJ: And who were some of your peers?

JL: Bill Frisell, and I were there. John Scofield, Billy Pierce (a great saxophonist), George Garzone (another great saxophonist), Billy Drewes, Steve Slagle, a lot of players. We played a lot together there, and we still play a lot together today. And everyone at that time was into Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane, that was the music. Coltrane was everything. But for me... the people who I heard play out there... I heard Miles Davis play live for the first time. His record Live Evil just came out. Keith Jarrett and Jack DeJohnette were in the band, along with Gary Bartz. Man, it was fabulous. It really made an impact on me. They were playing free music, with more electric sounds. That still influences my choice of line ups today. And the Keith Jarrett Quartet with Paul Motian, Charlie Haden, and Dewey Redman. Now, that was a very important band that I heard play live. I wanted to play with that music. I started playing with Paul Motian ten years later.

AAJ: Right, I wanted to touch on that. You've played in a lot of different contexts: everything from trios, duets, and the wind ensemble, to a full orchestra. And much of your work has been in pianoless ensembles. What do you think your jazz ensembles have gained in the absence of a piano?

JL: Well, it's more a matter of the personnel, really. It's how people play. I've been in a lot of bands with piano, too. With piano, bass drums, and horn, there are all these trios and triangles happening within the group. But sometimes, when you play with guitar, bass, drums and horn you get a real full sound. Or, like the Paul Motian trio with just Bill Frisell, Paul Motian and I, we play like an orchestra. Bill is shaping and coloring the music like the string section; Paul is the percussion and the brass; and I'm the woodwinds section. We play like a total ensemble. My wind ensemble, Symbiosis, with voice, cello, bass, and drums is similar in that way. It's a trio of tenor, bass and drums, but with the cello and voice there's the addition of all these sounds and colors happening. It's another way to play like an orchestra. I really thrive on playing in different ensembles with different instrumentation around me. But, more than that, it's the personnel. It's the personalities of each player that I've been working with real closely that makes the music. It's Judi Silvano, soprano voice, Eric Friedlander on cello; it's Schuller, or Gary Valente on trombone, or Tim Hagans on trumpet. As soon as you add these different personalities the music has a different shape and takes off in a different way.

AAJ: Getting back to the Motian Trio, I find it interesting that you did two tribute albums to pianists (Bill Evans and Thelonious Monk) without using a piano. How did you make that work?

JL: Well, we just tried to create the music from our personalities. We didn't even think about the piano at all. We didn't try to compensate for the piano. Just like we don't try to compensate for not having a bass. We play with a guitar, saxophone, and drums. And yet Bill's not walking bass lines; I'm not thumping out notes; Paul's not pounding on the bass drum. People think that if the bassist walks quarter notes, that makes it jazz. That's not true. Jazz is the spirit of improvisation and being creative and developing music with the material that's there. That's the beauty of this music and why it's so rich and why you can play in different settings if you're free to it. You know, some cats wouldn't be able to play in that kind of group unless they had a bassist feeding them the quarter notes. They'd get lost.

AAJ: So how did you guys try to recreate, then, the essence of Monk?

JL: We really didn't. We just tried to play those tunes as honest as we could for ourselves. We played our parts. We tried to play what Monk wrote, but we played it with our ideas. Of course, we played with the wisdom of having heard Monk play those tunes. When Monk played them, he'd never heard anybody else play them. He heard them in his head. He'd play them, saying, "OK this is how this thing goes!" So when we play, at least we have the luxury of Monk as a model. But I'll tell you, the real challenge is not to copy that. It's easy to copy anything. It's a challenge being able to take what's there and be inspired and love it and then try to make something happen with it. That's what I'm trying to do with this quartet here [his quartet with Tom Harrel, Anthony Cox, and Billy Hart]. We have all of these themes and all of these tunes and I don't want to go up there and have Tom and I play "Dat, DaDa, Dat, DaDa, Dat!" We're trying to discover them and define them as we play. I want to play the melody a certain way, Tom wants to play it another way against that. We try to make it come out as one.

AAJ: Another context that seems to be a rich resource for you is the sax-drums duet. You done creative work with Ed Blackwell and with Aldo Romano.

JL: Right, I did a whole record of duets with Aldo.

AAJ: What are the specific challenges involved in playing in that context?

JL: Well, I think the origins of music lie in melody and rhythm. Maybe just rhythm. But then the inevitable outgrowth of rhythm is melody. So somehow, distilling it down to just melody and rhythm makes it come alive. It's organic. I'm just really attracted to that.

AAJ: What about the way it frees you up, harmonically?

JL: Yeah, you can create your own forms a lot easier. You can create more harmonic structures yourself. It's just you and the drums. But, if you play with the right drummer, and he's really in tune with what's going on, then the phrasing and everything falls into place. You're really not alone, even harmonically. Like playing with Blackwell, Motian, Mel Lewis, Billy Hart, Elvin Jones, Jack DeJohnette. I've had a chance to play with some of the greatest drummers of all time. And with each drummer I think I play differently. There's different energy, different ideas that happen naturally just from listening to each other.

AAJ: I can't even think of a song like "Evolution" without thinking about Blackwell's drum part.

JL: Ah hah! Yeah. I really try to write with parts for everybody in the music. So everybody has parts to feed off of, not only for themselves, but for each other. So we each had the drum part to feed off of in "Evolution." Then it's a dialogue that happens. Everyone has their part, but they're playing off of each other's parts, too. So there's this counterpoint that can happen if the musicians are right.

AAJ: Have you ever written a tune with the drums specifically in mind?

JL: Oh yeah. "Evolution" was kind of like that, in terms of its arrangement. "Modern Man" a tune that's also on that record ["From the Soul"] was a duo. I didn't tell Blackwell what I wanted him to play at all. I just wrote the score and gave him the spaces to fill in between the phrases. But I had him in mind. And he reacted to it. The rhythms and the melodies suggested certain things that happened. And when that happened, the next phrase came off in response. We just built on each other.

AAJ: And when you wrote with him in mind, do you think in terms of cadences? His sonority?

JL: Well, I was thinking more of his personality and what he might do with it. So I wrote it with those spaces for him in mind and just waited to see what would happen.

AAJ: Percussion is also an important part of your Symbiosis group. What was the central idea behind that group?

JL: Well, that grew out of ensemble playing. Between Judi's voice, my woodwinds, and the way Tim Hagans plays trumpet. Universal Language developed into Symbiosis, and that eventually even lead to the orchestra with Gunther Schuller. A lot of the whole concept of the band was the way we play live together and create melody and form as we're playing. That was the beginning inspiration. And then the whole ensemble sound around it has changed. Sometimes it's guitar, bass, and drums; sometimes we've included piano. Right now, it's cello, bass, and drums and I'm finding that really exciting.

AAJ: I saw you perform at Miller Theater in February.

JL: Ah! That's an incarnation of some things that are developing still.

AAJ: One thing that struck me about that incarnation of Symbiosis was the way in which the cello brought together the timbre of the tenor saxophone and the voice. It also bridged the gap between the voice and the bass.

JL: That's what were trying to create. It's funny, it's really the personalities of the players. You could have different people on those same instruments and it might not happen at all. It's the way Judi sings and her interpretation. It's the way Eric feels the music and plays. Both Eric and Judi are real ensemble musicians. They play in orchestras; Judi sings in choirs. All the music that they do in life is about ensemble work. So then when we get into this intimate quintet it's in their. It's a part of the sonic power of the music.

AAJ: You mentioned "Rush Hour" earlier. How did you go about creating that album?

JL: Well, I just asked Gunther if he would do some orchestrations for my next record. I've known him for a while. I've played with Ed Schuller for years (since the mid seventies). I met Eddie up in Boston, too. And Gunther was present at the New England Conservatory then. He would come around and hear us play. He's really been a champion of our music through the years. So, I asked him if he would do some orchestrations of some Ellington, Monk, Ornette, and Mingus. That was the initial idea. And then we talked about maybe doing some original pieces and a standard. I asked him for about forty minutes of music so that I would have about twenty minutes, or so, to write some smaller things. I wanted to write some duets and trios in order to offset the larger ensembles. It was a trip because I recorded his parts first. We did the strings on one day, and the woodwinds another. Then I wrote my pieces later to fit into what was happening. I heard what was there and I wrote my pieces to fit in. It was the first time I ever did something like that. It was beautiful. And it was a challenge and I really learned a lot. To put a whole recording together as an orchestration, not just a collection of tunes was something new. We had to create an overall flow and one picture with the whole record. That's what I was trying to do with Universal Language, as well. But "Rush Hour" really came together around that concept.

AAJ: You were also commissioned to compose an original orchestration for Lincoln Center.

JL: That's right. It was a trip, man. We presented music from Rush Hour with Gunther conducting and they asked me to write a piece. They commissioned me to do this thing about New York City. So I call it "New York Fascination." In fact, we're going to play the piece this next set. Anyway, I didn't know what to do. I could have had a big band, or a small group, or I could have written for the instrumentation from "Rush Hour." Naturally, I decided to write something using that instrumentation since that was the sound I was playing that evening. So I wrote a piece for french horn, bassoon, alto saxophone, clarinet, flute, soprano voice, tenor saxophone, and guitar, bass and drums. So not quite the full ensemble that Gunther wrote for, but a big part of it. And it was a challenge, man, it was a trip to write something for a bassoon, a bass clarinet.... I think it came out really cool. It had a real sound. You know, something I'm going to record in the future.

AAJ: What were some of ideas that you were playing with when you composed the piece?

JL: Well, the concert was called "I'll Take Manhattan." That was the theme. So all the music was supposed to be about New York City. So I wrote a four-part suite. The first part is "Uptown," the second part is "Downtown," the third is "Midtown," and there's Central Park, which I call "Sanctuary." I just wrote from the energies of those parts of New York City and the music that happens. The "Uptown" section is a much brighter, 4/4 swing section. The "Downtown" section is very free and open with some duet playing. The "Midtown" section is kind of a medium tempo piece. It's still kind of free, but has this movement thing happening, expressing the idea of a lot of people moving around together. You know, all in unison—but not really! And "Sanctuary" is simple, meditative peace. So I really tried to feel New York.

AAJ: What excited you most about playing within that ensemble?

JL: It was really great. There were all of these tones. The way Gunther wrote it, there was no doubling of parts. It's not like playing in a big band where you have four trumpets or five trombones and they're all BLOWING together. We had one trombone, one trumpet, one tuba, one bass clarinet, one contrabass clarinet, one English horn, one clarinet, one flute, one voice. So there's a real clear sound.

AAJ: Did you find it harder weaving a line among all those different parts?

JL: I don't know if "harder" is the right word... You just have to listen deeper. Yeah, you have to be in tune with what everybody's playing. So my parts were really a combination of written lines with everybody else and then solo extensions. I had to not only be in tune with what was happening in the music but also follow Gunther's conducting, tempo changes, and different things that could happen. That was the biggest challenge, to follow a conductor. Usually, in jazz, you're playing, you're improvising, you're reacting. But Gunther, he's up front too, and he's creating tempo changes and doing things, you know? It was a unique set of compositions to perform.

AAJ: Looking over all of your music, do you have any compositions that you consistently return to in performance?

JL: It depends on who I'm playing with. Like with this particular group, my tune "Fort Worth" is an open canvas that really takes some shape in the interplay with Tom Harrell. In the next set, we're going to play this piece "Modern Man" which is a real adventure to play with Billy Hart. I think different groups and different personnel work best with different tunes.

AAJ: And how do you think your style changed over the years?

JL: It's developed through playing in a lot of different bands and playing with a lot of different people. It's grown tremendously melodically, rhythmically, and harmonically, just from playing with an open attitude and reacting to who I'm playing with. I feel I'm really a student of this music and learning from everybody I play with all the time. And the tunes that I've played. The different tunes you play teach you a lot about music, if you really get into them. Take John Coltrane's "26-2," or Mingus' "Duke Ellington's Sound of Love." To play on those harmonic structures, you can't be jiving around because them chords are moving fast! You got about two beats! So, when you play tunes like that, and really study them, you can execute a lot of ideas through them. You see yourself grow. You see what you need to learn and you can tell when you've accomplished something new.

AAJ: Some writers say that it takes about ten years to get the distance to write about themselves. They say it takes that time to gain some perspective. Looking back on your own development, how would you describe your playing ten or fifteen years ago?

JL: I'd have to say that I was into then a lot of the music I'm into today, as far as what I love. But, at that time I was just starting to experience it. Not just experience it by listening to it on record, but watching someone else play. So, I was just approaching the gate. And now I feel I'm just starting to step towards the sidewalk! I've barely just come through the Gate! Back in the late seventies, all the bands that I played with were just the beginning. When I first played with Woody Herman's band, in 1976, I was twenty-three. I was already playing since I was a kid. I was already into the tenor saxophone. So I had had ten or eleven years of learning how to play. I was just getting to the point where I was able to get a gig.

AAJ: Looking to the future, where would you like to go from here?

JL: I just want to continue doing what I'm doing right now. I've been building my foundations. Now I want to settle into it. Keep exploring all these possibilities that I've opened up. I'm not sure where that can go. For now, I want to be in the moment developing into tomorrow all of the time.

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