Read Pat Metheny's original comments Read Pat Metheny's follow-up comments News Story Surrounding Comments AAJ TOPIC: Kenny G: To Defend The Indefensible

 

Date:	14-Jun-2000 23:59:50
From:	Mike R. (mricci@allaboutjazz.com)
	I personally love this rant... "When Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, f***ed up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused [sic] musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, s**t all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician..."

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 01:54:06
From:	Jerry Levinson (jerrylev@adelphia.net)
	I'm not very familiar with Kenny G's recordings, particularly the Louis Armstrong "tribute" that so incensed Mr. Metheny, however, I haven't been impressed by what little of Kenny G I've heard. Pat Metheny is certainly more respected for his musical skills, both compositional and improvisational, by both critics and musicians. If Kenny G sues Pat for libel, he might lose!

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 03:54:35
From:	Flibbert J. Goosty (goosty@angelfire.com)
	"You can be anybody you want to be in this world, if only somebody will let you" - Chip Burris Pat is attacking the messenger, when he should be attacking the message. Maybe he actually thinks the world is on the level. SOMEBODY produced all those horrible Kenny G (wiz) records that we all condemn as pseudo-jazz sell-outs. Obviously some suit decided that Mr. G's music would be accessable music in the eyes and ears of all the mindless, robotic souls that roam this planet. On a lighter note, if there were no Kenny G., what would we hear everytime we walk into an elevator, or a doctor's office? As painful as it is, we must face the harsh reality of it all: It aint called show-BUSINESS for nothing, folks.

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 12:18:52
From:	J Bass (jazzman712@yahoo.com)
	I absolutely agree with Pat's comments. Kenny G is the musical equivalent of a stain on a white shirt. For him to think that he ranks up there with Louis Armstrong is flat out ignorant and disgusting. Thank you Pat for exposing an appalling attack on the jazz world.

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 13:49:09
From:	Richard Barker
	I've been in the music business for 40 years and I find Pat Metheny's sickening attack on Kenny G uncalled for.He is a disgace to our proffesion.If I never heard his name again I would be happy.

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 14:08:15
From:	Prabhu Ganesan
	Mr.Richard Barker,you can go fly your kite on a sunny day,up kenny g's lame-ass. WHAT METHENY DID WAS BRAVE,he said it out...what we all thought,he spilled it out,and for that,this elevates music...i wish i could say how dumb and idiotic the music of kenny g,is but there aint no enough vocab in english to critisize this chap,because he sucks,let me just tell you that,if i were to die from a mishappen,my last wish will be to run his soprano up his own ...errr..save this for later.

 

Date:	15-Jun-2000 14:13:26
From:	Kenny Werer (nilson@balls.com)
	FAGGET SAX,the new style in unimprovised music, for info check out www.kennygsucks.com. LONG LIVE METHENY!!

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 00:02:10
From:	richard baker
	Kenny Werer,It figures, all the lames and homophbics like yourself would be in Pats corner.I can't picture a crazy like you digging jazz.....

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 00:09:09
From:	Don
	Methane'ee burned the GEEEEEE! "That's a gas!" OK! Bottom line....(if you can grasp the tribute theme, in the first place as I feel the actual motive behind this CD,was simply to keep the cashflow comin'and goin' and what better vein than the old "tribute concept, when the creative well starts to run dry..KinneeePee of course can fall back on "How much these ICONS meant to him and all that "jizz", as "Jazz!" How nice it would have been to see somewhere in the credits, that the extra windfall bucks made with this CD could have been also given to deserving musical charities, etc. but sadly, I think in this case....It was Kinneeeepee's pity-pockets?????? Methane, BareBonesBoney-JesseJames...on and on and on...of the smoooooth Jizzz world..are all beginning to run a little dry of ideas and themes...(Elevator music-is beginning to sound more and more alike...I am a old trumpet player, who played with a major NW symphony in the early 60's,Taught music in public schools, played in bunches of NW coastal local NW dance bands....back singers, played in small club settings..gigged the ski resorts in winter...roam the coast in the summer...It doesn't take too long to know where a musical soul is coming from or where his heart "lies" but it does appear that Kenny and others today...are runnin on empty. I am an artist and art director and I sadly, I know what it's like to create on demand...and know how many people rely on you to keep coming up with new and exciting ways to skin the same old cat...KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, WHEN YOU MIX TOO MANY BEAUTIFUL AND WONDERFUL COLORS TOGETHER,OVER AND OVER AGAIN??? YEP~~ YA' GOT A LOUSY SHADE OF BUTT-UGLY FLEAHISH "GREY"or in this illustration...A very shabby shade of Kenney "Grey!"...

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 02:03:21
From:	Colin (cfarns@home.com)
	Absolutely right on, Pat. Kenny G belongs in the Muzak category, and for him to try to associate himself with Louis in a way is as ridiculous as Kenny's attempt at solos usually are. Aside from my admiration of Pat Metheny as a musician, I respect his opinion on matters musical, having heard him in live interviews. Who better to put Kenny G-od awful in his place.

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 08:45:42
From:	Dave Timmons
	I heard the gawd-awful Classics on the Key of G and it almost made me puke. Pure dreck. A friend of mine argued that Gorelick is exposing his tone-deaf fans to Louis Armstrong, and that some of them will go out and purchase Louis' music. Does anyone believe this? Personally, I think smooth jazz fans are incapable of making the leap to real jazz.

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 10:17:47
From:	Able Baker
	Who or what is a Kenny G ???????????

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 13:51:58
From:	Stu Bleguro
	Richard Barker....are you Kenny's manager? :) Do you notice no one else has supported you? Do you wonder why? Pat...u da man. Or as Charlie would say, 'Solid, Jackson'

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 14:54:38
From:	michael parsons (nutrabest1@home.com)
	I am 51 years old and have followed blues, jazz, R&B and to a lesser extent all kinds of music my entire life. Next to my family it is my passion. It's what makes me and millions of others like yourselves happy. It's art. It's not a blueprint. Live and let live. Kenny G is by no means my favorite artist but he does produce music that makes many people happy. Let's ease up a bit. This elitism regarding straight ahead vs. smooth or contemporary jazz borders on the extreme thinking which gave birth to the "Final Solution" methods put in place by Nazis. Art and negativism cannot peacefully coexist. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. That's what I do. But I certainly have no right to tell you or anyone that they can or can't enjoy art. I'm not sure that I understand this extreme viewpoint at all. Kenny G is a musician. I, like most of you, don't care much for his music, but I don't condemn him for creating it nor those who choose to listen to it. Please, go listen to whatever it is that makes you happy and let it go.

 

Date:	16-Jun-2000 19:54:28
From:	D.P.Charron
	Reminds Me of what I once heard; The Difference between Kenny G. and an UZI, Is the Uzi eventually runs out of Ammo..

 

Date:	17-Jun-2000 04:10:03
From:	Paul Unger (unger2@flash.net)
	Mr. Parsons, Although I agree with you about easing up on the "elitism" part of your message. I do not believe it applies to the comments made by Mr. Metheny. Here is a case of one artist making comments about the integrity and musical decisions of another artist that effect not only that artists musical statement but the art as a whole and society itself. I myself do not care for Kenny G's music, much as I also do not care for much of the fodder on network TV, but Mr. G's appropriation of Louis Armstrong was a totally exploitive act. And if he puts himself on the level of Louis Armstrong than it is the right of the artist, and the public, to critisize him at that level. We would not complain if this type of critism were leveled at another artist in any other art form. Why should music be any different?

 

Date:	17-Jun-2000 13:51:20
From:	Ken Watters (kenwatt@aol.com)
	Here we go! Y'all check this out: http://206.24.127.9/qManage/questionView.cfm?queID=2233 Pat Metheny is what ALL musicians want to be in a lot of ways. A WONDERFUL player, composer, and is CONSTANTLY growing. He NEVER plays "down" to the audience, either. He's a great example of someone who doesn't believe that a musician has to do that to achieve commercial success.

 

Date:	18-Jun-2000 00:33:50
From:	Ron (rdg@whoneedsmailbombs.com)
	Pat Metheny is a great player. Too bad he's a musical bigot. Jazz _is_ what jazz players _does_ and there is no difference between Metheny's attack on Kenny G and the sick ramblings of a ethnophobic cultural purist. If Metheny had said he thinks Kenny G's stuff sucks, well...no problem. But he didn't. Metheny crossed the line into petty pscychologizing and was arrogant enough to claim the ability to mind-read what Kenny G meant by doing what he did. It's simple...Kenny G admires Armstrong and wanted to play along. Methinks Mr Armstrong would be sickened by Metheny's attack. Armstrong saw enough purist shit like this being black, and I'm _sure_ this kind of blustering macho jazz-purist crap is nothing like what he hoped for when he played and sang *What a Wonderful World* All Metheny has done with this rant is further cement the common feeling among lots of musicians of many stripes that jazz is a haven for arrogant musical wankers. Metheny is feeding the stereotype and that hurts jazz more than anything Kenny G ever did.

 

Date:	18-Jun-2000 21:36:15
From:	Pete C.
	"Kenny G admires Armstrong and wanted to play along." Ron, do you actually believe this? Kenny G is all about selling records. This gimmick worked for Natalie Cole and I guess it worked for Kenny G too. I'd like to hear the G-man play over Giant Steps.

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 00:12:57
From:	Michael (astralecho@aol.com)
	It's about time!!! For too many years this clown, Kenny G, has been poluting the airwaves with his garbage. The very fact that there is a whole generation of youth growing up today who associate this moron with jazz, sickens me to the core. And yes, the producers, DJ's, and record labels are to blame too. It is another example of how greedy corporate America has spoon fed us another no playing loser and marketed him as a "jazz musician." There are loads of young players who really have chops out there who will never get their due and never have the chance to enjoy a fraction of what Kenny must earn in a year. Though I have never been a huge Metheny fan, I totally support his comments. I am so happy someone from the true jazz community spoke up on this. He should be commended. I mean what is next?....Dave Koz presents the Music of John Coltrane. Respect for the masters, Michael

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 01:03:22
From:	clyde cannon
	the prez may dig kenney G, but God bless Pat Metheney.

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 05:13:40
From:	Ron (ron@whoneedsmailbombs.com)
	Al Hirt got the same sellout rap as Kenny G and Al was a monster player. Kenny G isn't a miracle worker but he's pretty good and obviously lucky with his career so I'm happy for him. As for Kenny G playing over Coltrane, well..that'd sure shut folks up, wouldn't it :-) Kenny? You gotta second duet in ya?

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 10:56:05
From:	Lian Amber (lian@lianamber.com)
	In regards to Ron's comment that Louis would be sickened by Metheny's comments, I'd like to remind you, Ron, that Louis VEHEMENTLY attacked Bird, Diz and BeBop when they first began playing it. So if he was willing to publicly attack these musical geniuses for playing music that he didn't personally like, I can't imagine what he would say to Kenny G. for defiling his own music.... Louis was a genius - that doesn't mean he was a saint....

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 13:02:22
From:	patricia (patriciadryburgh@email.com)
	I'm relatively new to the jazz scene so my comments are tentative at best. However, it seems to me that Kenny G is "jazz for dummies" in that I don't detect a sou of creativity in his delivery of any of his music. It is mass-produced pap. The musicians that I admire, Coltrane, Armstrong, Bird and many more, never play the same song the same way twice. I'm sure that Mr.Gorilick could repeat every song he ever did, to the note, every time. It makes me sad that the truly creative musicians can hardly get gigs anymore while Mr. G. lives like a czar. It just ain't fair.

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 14:01:33
From:	Strawdog
	I must agree with Methenys opinion of Kenny G. His music is insipid and uncreative and can't be called jazz. But I would also say that Methenys music is in the same category. It is sad that those of us who grew up with the greats like Trane and Miles have to hear this pablum on our local jazz station

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 16:54:45
From:	joe h
	Right on, Pat. Unfortunately, the presentation of your music suffers from the same homogenation and lack of vitality as KG. Get back to basics and get rid of the synth.

 

Date:	19-Jun-2000 20:42:04
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	I think that Pat is totally within his right to degrade Kenny G for his playing, writing, attitude, hell-even his hair! Kenny G does not play "jazz" (or in Rahsaan Roland Kirk's words, "Black American Classical Music") as much as Mantovani didn't play classical music. Same type of instrumentation and outer appearance, but not much else. If we were to turn the clock back 30 years when Louis was still around, would he have sung on a track with Kenny? Probably. Would he have been flashing his famous smile all the way through, or would he have been gritting his teeth waiting to give Kenny a good old-fashioned New Orleans/Ninth Ward bare-knuckle attitude adjuster behind the studio? I think Louis would have taken the money and told Kenny he ain't no Sidney Bechet. The important thing is that we have to let our kids listen to James Carter AND Kenny G, Wes Montgomery AND Charo, and let them decide what's hip. I got turned on to jazz in junior high when an art teacher put on an MJQ album during class. Make sure you give your kids that experience-buy them the new Joe Zawinul CD as well as the new Eminem they've been bugging you about. AND TAKE YOUR KIDS TO HEAR LIVE JAZZ!! Pat's right, Kenny G is no Coltrane, but Easy Listening is not supposed to be. Thanks, Rick

 

Date:	20-Jun-2000 01:18:18
From:	Ann (Martiann@tomatoweb.com)
	I personally never like the bubble gum version of jazz Kenny G plays. I find nothing in his music that is original or compelling. I am sure in the future his music will be relegated to the kind of stuff you hear when you are placed on hold on the phone. As for Metheny’s comments about the overdubbing of previously recorded song. Overdubbing other artist work simply show a lack of creativity of the person do it.

 

Date:	20-Jun-2000 11:01:01
From:	David R. Adler (david_adler@margeotes.com)
	I think Metheny is essentially right about Kenny G, but his choice of words was surprisingly harsh for such a mellow-seeming person. I wonder whether he's overcompensating because some people have lobbed the "smooth jazz" accusation at Metheny himself? David

 

Date:	20-Jun-2000 13:11:09
From:	Bob Doyle (rkennedydoyle@hotmail.com)
	Louis Armstrong is my favorite Jazz musician and Thank God I haven't heard that piece of flying pig slop that some people would call music. Although I am not too familiar with Pat Methany's music, I would like to thank him for saying what needed to be said. If I ever hear that piece of inhumane torture, I might just go ballistic and start ranting and raving and demanding that somebody turn it off right now or they will live to regret it. I thought it was bad enough that Britney Spears did her own version of The Rolling Stones "Satisfaction", but this is even worse. Putting his tracks over a recording of Mr. Armstrong's, like he was actually in the studio with the legendary figure(Louis, as nice as he was, would have told him where to go with that mess) is like boosting yourself up to the Sistine Chapel's ceiling and adding your own touch to the masterpiece that Michelangelo left for our enjoyment. While he's at it, why doesn't Kenny G, hire a painter, so that he can make himself the thirteenth apostle in Michelangelo's painting of "The Last Supper"? Redd Foxx, the great comedian, use to say "Fred G. Sanford, the G stands for, glad you're going!" Well, the G in Kenny G stands for GOD AWFULL!!

 

Date:	21-Jun-2000 20:39:16
From:	David (-----------)
	One of the interesting side effects of this brilliantly written piece is that has also brought out people who are totally clueless of Metheny's own music. To anyone who thinks Metheny is anything less than one of the two or three most important improvising musicians out there, all I can assume is that you have not really listened to his music. There is simply no one else I can think of who has written as much great music, led as many great bands (the PMG, trios with Haden and Higgins, with Holland and Haynes, 80/81(!), Song X, the quartet with Hancock, Holland and Dejohnette, his duets with Haden and the one with Jim Hall) played as a sideman on important records (Garret's Pursuance, Brecker's Hudson, Thomas's Faces, Redman's Wish, etc) and influenced an entire generation musicians as Metheny has. To say that he in any way has anything to do with anything related to anything having to do with Kenny G or the "Smooth" world is to show that you are just, well,.....ignorant - there's no nice way to say it. Metheny's music speaks well for itself - and the people that know - know.

 

Date:	22-Jun-2000 16:20:28
From:	Greg German (greg@media.berkeley.edu)
	Well said, David. Anyone who would put Pat in the same "Smooth" boat with Kenny has not really listened to Pat's music. I'll be the first to admit that his use of the guitar synth might be viewed by some as regrettable, but you shouldn't let that obscure the fact that he has played some great jazz. I dare anyone to listen to "Question & Answer" (w/Dave Holland and Roy Haynes) and then say that Pat can't play or that he is even remotely deserving of being grouped with Kenny G. Pat Metheny is an important jazz guitarist who has influenced many players and is very involved in working with the other heavyweights of jazz. Can anyone name a saxophonist who claims to be influenced by KG? Who has KG played with as a sideman? Where are the hundreds (if not thousands) of undiscovered guitarists who can play circles around PM but just can't get a break? It's fine if you don't like PM's music, but in the context of this discussion and PM's comments, it is not appropriate to group him with Kenny G. No one forced Dave Holland, Roy Haynes, Ornette Coleman, Jack DeJohnette, Jaco Pastorius, Billy Higgins, et al. to work with Pat Metheny. Let me know when one of them shows up on a Kenny G record...

 

Date:	22-Jun-2000 16:41:04
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	I have to admit though, i'll probably be one of the first to buy that Ornette Coleman, Derek Bailey, Gregg Bendian and Kenny G free-improv blowout when it comes out... Maybe he can do a duet with Cecil Taylor on "Songbird" ;)

 

Date:	22-Jun-2000 17:45:41
From:	elbaron
	Kenny G may not be smart, good looking, heterosexual, or even a good musician , but he (like every other jackass) has the right to do whatever the hell he wants. That is what makes this country a democracy. Even though i wouldnt touch his music with any length of pole, i dont think pat has any right to cut him down! So leave all the retards to their own devices and work on making what you like better.

 

Date:	22-Jun-2000 21:43:20
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	elbaron: "..So leave all the retards to their own devices and work on making what you like better..." How do you do both? Isn't Pat helping to make a distinction between what is really a part of the jazz continuum and what is a bad imitation? I hope that if you have kids in school a teacher is telling them there is a difference between Ernest Hemingway and Jackie Collins. Part of our responsibility as humans is to pass on an appreciation of what's important in our culture. Many people expect that responsibilty to be taken up by our overcrowded schools, so they end up pretty suprised when Johnny can't read or do math. When I worked in record stores, I was very suprised at the people who told me they didn't like jazz or classical. I, however, was not suprised at the answer I got when I asked if they had heard any jazz or classical. To that person, the only thing they think is "Jazz" is Kenny G because that's the only thing they had ever been exposed to with that tag. One RESPONSIBILITY we have as caretakers of each other is to make sure we let each other know about all the beauty in the world. I also think we have an equal RESPONSIBILITY to separate the wheat from the chaff. Besides, I personally think that if every Kenny G fan could hear an album like, say, Jan Garbarek's "Photo with Blue Sky", ECM Records' sales would triple.

 

Date:	23-Jun-2000 13:38:31
From:	Malcolm D. Turner (mturner@ecx.com)
	First of all, the music ($$$$) industry is run by pencil-neck, pseudo music enthusiast, number crunching individuals who could care less about the purity of music, art or creative expression in any form. This may sound funny but Kenny G. is somewhat victim of the Frankentein theory,(an experiment gone bad). Pat's comments may seem harsh to some because they have no idea of the emotion, feeling, sacrfice and lifestyle of jazz greats like; J. Coltrane, Armstrong, Miles, Monk and etc. To appreciate real jazz you have to appreciate the heart and soul of the artist. Kenny unfortunately in terms of purity is a marketing vehicle nothing more nothing less. On the other hand Pat's influence has impacted the world and the music industry more than Kenny and several other so-called jazz artist ever will. I wonder what the world would say to Ricky Martin dubbing over an Elvis track. Oh! and just for the record, we all know where Elvis got his groove. Pat continue to produce great music and influence the world with your wonderful tones and riffs and leave Kenny and his followers to the pseudo jazz black hole.

 

Date:	23-Jun-2000 14:29:10
From:	Henry Warden (hcwarde@juno.com)
	I went through some "tough" musical times (63 now) and I certainly feel the same about the KG music thing as Pat Matheny does. Using a lot of crude words probably is the best way to digtially express feelings, so be it. One has to try to appreciate just what "free expression" jazz is about, and how you can really enter into a musician's soul by listening to his works. There is no soul in KG music.

 

Date:	23-Jun-2000 14:49:37
From:	Ken Dryden (kenjazz@vei.net)
	Every track on "Classics in the Key of G" deserves to be condemned. The unimaginative "smoothed down" remakes of previously classic songs and the ridiculous sampling of Satchmo's vocal from the original "What A Wonderul World" caused one wag to create the South Park cartoon parody posted a few months back on the "Bird Lives!" site. Jazz Times made a big deal with an article quoting the "G" that he was bored with smooth jazz and wanted to venture into something more interesting, yet the magazine either didn't have a single staffer willing to review it or they were possibly afraid of offending pseudo-jazz label Arista and losing their advertising dollars. Kenny, stay where you are. No one can question your credentials in your own field of smooth jazz, but you're a Class D player when you try to play in the major leagues of jazz, a guaranteed strike out victim on three pitches without coming close to making contact! Pat Metheny deserves credit for speaking his mind without worrying about political correctness.

 

Date:	23-Jun-2000 22:55:47
From:	alan j (couldgiveacrap@aol.com)
	metheny paid kenny g a compliment, when he stated that what he plays is the "dumbest music." i'd call it noise. imo, kenny g plays crap. that ain't music. every chance i get, i take kenny g's cd's out of the jazz section, and move them, or hide them. he is so, so awful. his playing makes me violently sick.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 01:40:03
From:	Leo
	I read Pats comments with interest and agree with just about everything he said.HOWEVER I do feel that Pat was a little over the top. After all Pat has made alot of money himself, whats wrong with that, and its not just how he made it. I do not listen to Kenny because it's shit and I think Pat is a wonderful player. Bit I have also heard other comments from other Jazz people that even Pat had sold out sometimes!No SHIT! No Pat is right but he should be a little more sensitive on his comments.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 08:00:14
From:	Eric Taffyn (etaffyn@iinet.net.au)
	Great musicians steal, terrible ones borrow!A great musician makes his influences his own.What is wrong with one person saying what he thinks? Pat Metheny has made a comment on another musicians method of operating and it's true. I have no problems with "smooth" jazz or any music, I do have a problem when one musician uses another musicians work to "sell" his own. There have been great examples of musicians using other composer's works (Miles Davis - Porgy and Bess) but this is different. If Kenny G is sincere then let him give all the royalties to the Armstrong estate!

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 08:25:22
From:	shamlethacktor (shamlethacktor@yahoo.com)
	news up-date RINGO STARR IN DRUM BATTLE WITH ART BLAKEY!

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 08:32:53
From:	silver (thesilversyrup@aol.com)
	you don't say!! anyway,here's news:ELTON JOHN'S DOING PIANO DUETS WITH ART TATUM.....looks like the ole syrup's on a winner here.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 11:19:26
From:	Rob Mounsey (mounsey@flyingmonkey.com)
	I've always had a lot of respect, admiration and affection for Pat -- He's an absolutely wonderful musician and a great guy -- and I have to say I love him even more now that he's cut loose and spoken the rude truth on this. It's dangerous for a musician to publicly criticize someone else's work -- One is vulnerable to charges of jealousy over Mr. G's commercial success & filthy lucre -- and Pat, who really is a kind and decorous type usually, obviously reached his limit with this insipid, LCD stuff. More power to him! BTW, comparing this Armstrong thing to Natalie Cole's duets with her father is pretty unfair. It WAS her Dad, and Natalie, believe me, can REALLY sing. She's the real thing, unlike some circular-breathing soprano player I could name... -- Rob Mounsey

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 11:26:36
From:	Ryan K.
	I think this discussion page is a perfect example of how Kenny G does so well. Although I read some very insightful comments, so many of the other comments (ie - Pat Matheny is a "smooth" jazz musician, "smooth" jazz is just another musical artform, etc. . .) are just rantings by people who simply do not know enough about Jazz, or even what jazz really is. As a professional Jazz musician, I feel the only solution to this "instrumental pop" that Kenny Gorelick sells, and the success he has selling it, is to teach all fellow jazz listeners, or future Jazz listeners, young and old, what Jazz is all about - expressing one's self through spontaneously created musical stories. This definition of Jazz incorporates all different styles and genres which deserve to be associated with Jazz music: everyone from Louis to Coltrane to Cecil Taylor to Joshua Redman to Jon Zorn to Ben Allison(if you haven't checked out Ben Allison yet, hop to it!!! - one of NY's finest up-and-coming bassist/composer/band leader!) Not surprisingly, Kenny Gorelick's music does not come even close to this defintion. In fact, according to my defintion, Kenny Gorelick's music is really Anti-Jazz - there is no way that one could call his music expressive seeing how it is the same everytime - this would be like an author writing the same novel each year!, it is definately not spontaneously created(not improvised), and it is most definately not creative. His latest effort is the least creative yet! The Egotistical Leech!!!!!!

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 12:09:01
From:	bob raezer (bob_raezer@hotmail.com)
	yeah,i agree with pat. it's like me saying: ok, i'm going to do a tribute to Lyle Mays, but it comes out sounding like lawrence welk. kenny g should stay in his own category called: "lullabye's for secretaries who really dig john tesh and yanni" or "crooning for dollars". kenny g has contributed absolutely nothing to JAZZ and should be ashamed to be associated with jazz. smooth or whatever, to me REAL jazz is ORIGINAL freeform improvization that should inspire people to reach deep inside themselves to create and express their own feelings with music. just be happy that kenny g doesn't turn you on.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 13:17:23
From:	Roger Crane (roger.crane@losangeles.af.mil)
	Pat Metheny's article, although passionate and articulate, won't, of course, do a damn bit of good. He is preaching to the choir. If any Kenny G fans even read it, they won't "get" it. They don't hear a lack of ideas, they don't hear a sax going sharp, they don't hear cliche after cliche. A whole lot of people pay a whole lot of money to witness a whole lot of meaningless breathing exercises and say "wow" to each other. Jazz is a minority art that requires "big" ears. I have not observed that Kenny G fans have "big" ears. As some famous wit once said "YOU WILL NEVER GO BROKE UNDERESTIMATING THE TASTE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. Roger Crane

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 13:19:48
From:	David R. Adler (david_adler@margeotes.com)
	To those who totally misinterpreted my remark about Pat Metheny overcompensating because some have lobbed the "smooth jazz" accusation at Metheny himself — If you read my original remark, you'll note that I myself did not lump Metheny's music in the same category as Kenny G's. Far from it. I have been listening to Metheny for years and am intimately familiar with his music. Any honest listener would have to admit, however, that SOME of Metheny's output with the Pat Metheny Group falls within the radio-friendly pop-jazz orbit. So what I said is this: maybe Pat feels a little touchy about what some critics have said about this portion of his output, and that's why he flamed Kenny G. the way he did. So folks, please, before you flame and start calling people ignorant, give what you're responding to a second read. It's simply good manners. David

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 15:55:45
From:	Dave Ost
	This is incredible. Is this a Metallica fan site? Pat Metheny sounds like a Metallica fan complaining that the music is not loud or hard enough. I thought jazz listeners were supposed to have more than a couple of brain cells between their ears. I don't think Louis Armstrong has personally asked Pat Metheny to protect his integrity. A Pat Metheny and Kenny G bout, now there's an interesting ticket. The question is will the rabid Pat Metheny bite Kenny G's ear. Mike Tyson watch out.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 16:21:43
From:	Dylan Roberts (robbhuhn@home.com)
	Music is about expression... whether it is Louis Armstrong, Britney Spears or even Kenny G. now my personal opinion about Kenny G is that he should shove that sax of his........well you get the idea. However, Kenny is expressing his impression of Louis Armstrongs music.. we all "hear" music differently, and Kenny is brave enough to show us how he "hears" music that has affected his life. I believe that everyone has the right to express themselves through music, even though not everyone will like it. So Kenny, thanks for the music (even though I think you suck), and to Pat... remember, just beacause you don't like it... doesn't mean someone else won't.

 

Date:	24-Jun-2000 23:52:31
From:	Ryan K.
	Come on Dylan!! Kenny G doesn't hear that music!!! He isn't expressing himself!!!Even if he was hearing that music, it still doesn't give him the excuse to try and pass it as JAZZ!@!!!

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 00:35:14
From:	Jerry Tiberi (gtrjaz@aol.com)
	Well, I just happened to come across this situation and thought I'd check out what the big deal was. After reading a sample of the responses to Pat's comments, I am actually surprised to find myself throwing in my 2 cents worth. Here it is: € I'm a bit surprised at Pat's response to his "amazement" in regards to his mean attack on another musician in a public forum. Pat, when you spew fire and brimstone, what else would you expect? By the way what's the name of this religion Pat seems to have invented and now is defending? € Though I like what Pat's been doing lately, and it goes without saying he's got chops, and more than just a little on the ball--we don't have to look too far into the past to find some of his own "lame-ass" "Jive-ass" recordings either. In fact, at one point, he himself was so "pop" that an argument could be made that maybe he opened the door for a Kenny G to walk in through. I'm really not trying to be hard on Pat, I'm just a little amused that he is so whipped up about this guy, and the fact the rest of us aren't up in arms about it too. It'll take more than a "Kenny G" to "defile" the great music of Louis Armstrong or any other great art for that matter. That's the beauty of real art, it survives! Finally, being a musician myself, who also plays guitar, and loves music so very, very much--I really don't feel that music is in any danger at all. But here's a thought for all of you who are worried, maybe in the future they can issue out "licenses to practice music"? Later.

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 01:46:38
From:	Dan (keystoneaa@home.com)
	Kenny G. is technically proficient; however, he doesn't play play jazz! Why don't we just GET OVER IT!!!!

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 05:30:04
From:	Mike Jones (jonesjazz@lvcm.com)
	I must say that finally someone has articulated what every serious jazz musician has thought for years. As a pofessional jazz pianist with three cd's out on a small label (Chiarascuro), I sometimes find myself playing gigs in hotels or casinos in Vegas. The people that comprise the audience are not, as a rule, jazz fans. So many times I am greeted with comments like "Oh, I love jazz, I've got some Kenny G cd's at home!" I often let it pass because I can't possibly explain to these people what Pat Methany so eloquently does in his now famous comments. He makes it clear to even a non-musician why bad music is bad music. I'm so glad he had the nerve to say it. When I'm an old man, I want to look back on my life as an artist and be proud of what I've accomplished in music, not embarrased by it.

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 08:49:27
From:	Oman (oman@pacifier.com)
	I have read the Metheny e-mail criticisms, both the Metheny comments and the subsequent e-mail that supported Pat's position. I also read Walter Price's editorial and its subsequent e-mail. I hate the control that the Radio Architecture has. What I think I am reading from the Metheny side is that the man Kenny G has a responsibility to preserve what true Jazz is in both expression and culture. What I also hear form the Metheny side is the folks like Kenny G are responsible for influencing or incubating the wrong interpretation and meaning of Jazz by the masses. And, as a result has fueled this Smooth Jazz/Pop interpretation of which proponents of the Metheny position believe reduces the authenticity of 'real' jazz. Yes, we all hear Mr. G's music in the elevator ... we also hear Pat Metheny in elevators and some supermarkets. I think many jazz musicians today see that there is money to be made doing pop variants. I suppose that is a pressure. Many jazz musicians wonder how they are going to be recognized. I actually like the bluesy feel of some smooth jazz ... yes ... I listen occasionally to some smooth jazz. I believe that the amount of smooth jazz that our aural cavities consume is not healthy and indeed promotes the incorrect definition of jazz to the uninitiated. The ratio of smooth jazz stations to progressive/traditional jazz stations is alarmingly vast. But, to condemn Kenny G so vehemently, as if he alone has swayed the masses to the very poopy pop smooth jazz genre is inappropriate and misplaced. Kenny did not intend to make music to attack the authentic message and meaning of 'real' jazz. Maybe we should rename the smooth jazz genre to smooth pop. If the 'straight-up/progressive' jazz had more air-time, I suppose it would have more acceptance. I also believe that it would align the uninitiated's expectation of what jazz is on a more truthful/authentic path. Finally, the issues that are really on trial here are authentic and truthful representation of jazz (its voice/phrasing, significance/history/meaning, and culture). The truth and history does have to get out to the masses ... how will this be accomplished?

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 14:30:03
From:	Mike Winney (winn@goodnet.com)
	As one who grew up with Bird, Diz, Mingus, Monk, etc., over many years I retreated into the sanctum of my LP collection dispairing that I would ever hear anything new worthwhile. Then a few years ago I realized this was because for the most part all I heard on the radio was the so-called jazz equivalent of McDonalds--McJazz! I have since discovered many incredibly talented young jazz musicians. While I respect the G-man and others right to make the bucks what does bother me is that if this is what the listening audience is led to believe is jazz then how are they going to know any better. How is the torch going to be passed and how can these gifted musicians make a living? How? Probably by eventually playing McJazz. What a shame.

 

Date:	25-Jun-2000 20:20:48
From:	jason
	in my opinion kenny g. is a bad musician and a horrible artist he really does not care about whatever he does as long as he makes money.i dont like this kind of musicians because they are the ones that make this world really dull!! i agree with pat metheny and im glad that there is someone still who says this stuff...soon there won't be...there will be just kenny g's everywere in this planet...beware of kenny's system...

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 08:52:34
From:	Chris S.
	i absolutely agree with oman, and have been trying to argue for years, that kenny g does not play jazz smooth or otherwise, but that he plays instrumental pop. he seems to suck a lot less if you place him in the proper context, where he belongs -- alongside michel legrand or richard clayderman or ray lynch or john tesh or...i don't know who else but i hope you get the idea. he certainly doesn't belong in the context of miles or trane or whoever else because if you do that, kenny's dead in the water. and that's why i have a hard time arguing with the main point of metheny's argument, which as i interpret it is that people who think they listen to jazz because they listen to kenny g are deceiving themselves. it is at its core dishonest -- if you can't be considered in the context of diz, miles, trane and you know the rest, people shouldn't consider you a jazz artist. kenny g is certainly not the only person to blame for this, even for his own popularity, but he certainly merits some responsibility. i believe it is no accident that kenny g is the michael bolton of jazz.

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 12:17:08
From:	johncrawford (john@vidanova.freeserve.co.uk)
	Well done Pat Metheny on such a well articulated lambast! If every musician I knew spoke their mind this way the country I live in (UK) would produce much better jazz musicians- it's just sad that some people will do anything for a gig. But forget jazz and other musical categories- what Kenny G is an affront to MUSIC, full stop. Many musicians accept with a shrug the blatant, commercial, and cynical marketing strategies of Gorelick and the suits that shove his dross down our throats...This is why I applaud Metheny for for throwing us this hot potato and setting this dabate alight.

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 16:37:10
From:	Marty B
	Check out this month's Downbeat in which they reprint Armstrong's listening test from 1954. He had some very harsh things to say about bop musicians. Metheny's statement doesn't bother me. If Kenny G. gets more people buying Armstrong's records that's not bad either. I don't care for Kenny G. or the Pat Metheny Group with Lyle Mays. But its no big deal. 70% of the people listen to rock, r&b and hip-hop, they won't be aware of this little squabble I am sure.

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 18:50:26
From:	Greg (ggtbone@aol.com)
	It's about time someone spoke-up about that elevator drivel! Real jazz musicians take musical risks. The only thing extreme about Kenny-G is the Gerry-Curl!

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 21:56:00
From:	Dave
	Most of you have made Kenny look like the "Anti-Christ" of jazz. Yes maybe he his doing it for the money, but so what, isn't that his job?...Maybe he should just throw in the horn and call it a day. As much as you are criticizing him and saying that he "sucks", your sounding like he might read this and his feelings might be hurt...I don't think so. HEY, THIS IS AMERICA! God bless him for achieving his dream. So what if he's playing with Louis, someone representing Louis had to give him permission, right? Don't we have better things to do than sit at our computers and complain? Grow up! (BTW, I'm not a Kenny fan)

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 22:25:59
From:	Mike C. (Funkifized@hotmail.com)
	One of the main problems with arguments such as this one is the labelling. What you call jazz, I may call washed up pop drivel. What you call hillbilly crooning, I may call ingenious classic country music. When one says that he/she hates smooth jazz, I can certainly relate with that. However, I do understand that I have my own definition of smooth jazz, and you may find some great music mixed in with the Kenny G.s of the smooth set. I happen to be a major Larry Carlton fan. No, he's not a bebop player, and he sometimes covers pop tunes, like the Michael MacDonald's "Minute By Minute". But he's a kick-ass player, and he CAN play some serious bebop. He gets lumped in with the smooth set sometimes. Oh well. So does Metheny. However, there are a growing number of people who are mimicking the artistry of the Larry Carltons, the David Sanborns, the Pat Methenys. It really doesn't take a lot of listening to figure out the lack of musical discipline in a Kenny G. The plays a lot of notes really fast. Alrighty then. I think early on, he was okay, if you considered him a pop/R&B sax player. I don't believe that Metheny would have given a rat's ass about Kenny G. either way, except that Gorelick stepped over the line by desecrating a national monument, a pioneer in the 20th century. I agree totally with Metheny, not necessarily with his cheering squad. I also have to point, as someone else did here, that Gorelick is not necessarily responsible for these actions. This was very obviously some suit's way of making some serious bread, just as when G. did his "Auld Lang Syne" with historical recordings of the year and the century. Sad. But it's business. They certainly stepped over the line this time. Metheny a jazz snob? Yeah, and I've heard him say that he's the first to admit it. Outta line? Well, not really. Only that one shouldn't shoot the messenger, and G. is definitely a manikin in this whole business. Obviously he knows he's not going to make money with his sax chops. It's about the money, and it's not necessarily G. that's calling the shots. Metheny himself talked about his love for George Benson with Herbie Hancock on Benson's "White Rabbit" album. Well, George duetted with G. on this new album, I hear. On a Gershwin classic, too. Was that George's decision? Nah, I doubt it. Do you think Benson was clamoring to play with G.? You may not like Benson's smooth jazz, either, but he's one of the greatest jazz guitarists of at least the last 30 years. Yeah, he plays schlock, but he likes the groove and he likes to sing R&B. Metheny still loves Benson as a player and respects him, even if he did sit in with Kenny G. What's my point? Well, now even I'm not sure... ;-) You can like smooth jazz, whatever that is, you can like Kenny G., whatever that crap is, you can like Benson, you can like Metheny. Everyone is entitled to their own taste. But to start shitting on the pioneers of a whole genre of music, well that's pushing it. And when a guy comes along pushing his way through the great, hardworking players of the time and make it even more difficult for them to get a gig. That's wrong. When people say that Kenny G. gets people to listen to real jazz, they're wrong. If that were the case, then G. would be doing interviews, talking up Coltrane and Parker, putting in good words for them. But it doesn't behoov his bank account and he knows it. Along with the suits that back him. Right on, Pat!

 

Date:	26-Jun-2000 23:07:47
From:	Pat
	"It's about the money, and it's not necessarily G. that's calling the shots." Mike, Kenny G. is a very rich (which = a very powerful) man. He *does* call the shots. Do you think any record company weasel would tell Gorelick the way it is (now)? I don't think so.

 

Date:	27-Jun-2000 06:18:59
From:	Hilary Paprocki (hp23@mindspring.com)
	So KG is "insipid and uncreative"? Pretty much all jazz is nowadays. I haven't heard a jazz player work up a sweat since the Sixties. Hilary Paprocki

 

Date:	27-Jun-2000 12:22:14
From:	Tim Maglione (timmag@simplyweb.net)
	I thought the article/essay by Mr. Metheny was very thought-out and articulate. He very succinctly says what many of us true jazz-lovers and players have felt all along, i.e. that G's succuss is terribly disproportionate to his contribution to the evolution of the music itself. However, I have told several of my musical 'buddies' about the article, only to find that the link is no longer viable. (as of 6/27/00) Could someone please email me the article itself or direct me to a workable link so I may pass it along to my compadres? Many thanks to that person and also to all the people at "All About Jazz" for a great internet newsletter! peace, tim maglione

 

Date:	27-Jun-2000 14:08:06
From:	Ross Field (field@oceana.net)
	So KG is "insipid and uncreative"? Pretty much all jazz is nowadays. I haven't heard a jazz player work up a sweat since the Sixties. Hilary Paprocki Hilary, run - don't walk - to Chicago and catch Fred Anderson and/or Ken Vandermark etal in action. Just don't get too close to the stage or you might get drenched in their sweat while they explore the inner and outer limits of the great African American music of which Mr. G has no clue whatsoever, and while Mr. M does, he does not hesitate at times to gloss it over with syrup seeminlyg to broaden his appeal amongst the uninitiated.....

 

Date:	27-Jun-2000 16:12:56
From:	drew
	Kenny G did one good thing for jazz - it can be argued that he actually made jazz popular again. Unfortunately, his merging of jazz back into the highway of popularity pulled the wool over the eyes of the populace inciting a rampant Narcissism that pervades our artistically-challenged culture. Now it is up to the Jazz enthusiasts of the world to proclaim the good news of music: Kenny G is not, nor has he ever been, jazz or even good jazz fusion. He is the instrumental version of Celine Dion or Barbara Streisand without a beautiful voice to fill the air. If you have listened to Metheny's Tour 99-00, you also know that he has all the right in the world to say what he did on behalf of all aspirning jazz musicians. What Mr. Metheny argues is not that Kenny G is not jazz - which ought to be apparant to us all. He is rather arguing a more subtle area of the respect the jazz musician ought to give to an elder. Hancock, Ritenour, Henderson, Garrett, and others have all made tributes to jazz greats such as Davis, Montgomery, 'Trane and others, but with a dose of respect and admiration that can only be heard, and by hearing, felt. For cats like Ellington, it was a thrill to hear other good jazz musicians play their music. But this thrill came because the musician respected the music and played to the standard a great like Ellington would have had for them as a teacher, guide, and inspiration. Kenny G simply crowds the surface of the textures Armstrong carved out with his unique, raspy, baritone, and his soft but commanding horn, and presence. It is like he is carving his initials in a fine piece of 19th century furniture thinking that his initials will make it more valuable. What Metheny argues is that Kenny G fills the breathing room of a classic song with his own odd sound and technical flashiness that steps on the toes of a great one. Such an act is disrespectful and so, is fundamentally wrong. It would be like me, a drummer, overdubbing the fours that Rich trades with Krupa with my own meager approximation of the greatest drummer that ever has lived. Respect means that you can bring yourself and your music to the notes on the page of a great song knowing that with every note you play there is a great one looking over your shoulder. Thus, what Kenny G has done is simply a disrespectful and unconscienable placing of new wine into old skins rendering those old skins useless in the end. He taints a fundamental element in jazz history by filling it with himself - an act no words can be harsh enough to expose.

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 04:52:09
From:	richard bakerThe
	the pat metheny group had requested the jazz online message eliminate the essay that pat wrote.THEY eliminated the thread,but the discussion, is continuing. fEEL A LITTLE GUILT THERE PAT,A LITTLE SCARED ABOUT YOUR REPUTATION FOR YOUR SICKENING ATTACK ON KENNY G. YOU ARE A DUMBO.

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 09:58:42
From:	Chris Burnett (chrisb@burnettmusic.com)
	I first read the Pat Metheny article/commentary a few days ago as well. I live near Kansas City and his brother Mike is a musician/journalist here (Jazz Ambassadors of Mid-Missouri). A couple of friends from the UMKC Conservatory sent me a copy of the entire article via email too... It has nothing to do with liking Smooth Jazz or not when it comes to Kenny G, in my opinion. I totally agree with where Pat Metheny was coming from in context too! Kenny G misrepresents "jazz" and "jazz saxophone" on a scale unheard of before. The sound he now gets on his soprano saxophone is so processed and saturated with reverb that it does more harm than good when students or new people to "jazz" music hear him play. I only say this because I also have a few recordings from the late 70s when he did not sound that way. He was a good fusion player on both sax and flute then (his sax playing was modeled after the real "father of contemporary/smooth sax", Grover Washington, Jr). And even to this day, Kenny G is not on the musical level of Grover -- even though he may have reached more popularity and majority mainstream American populace acceptance than Grover ever did -- but, that's another issue in a context of its own. *I also do not believe that a comparison to David Sanborn is appropriate either. Sanborn is unique and did not copy anyone's style to make it "big" - does anybody remember "Double Vision" with Bob James?... Sanborn CAN play jazz straight up and has paid those necessary dues on his instrument. Sanborn will tell you that he does not consider himself a "jazz musician", although he can play in that tradition legitimately. I just don't think that Pat Metheny's remarks were necessarily an "elitist jazzer's" attitude. I think that Pat Metheny has a lot of respect for the musicians who really started and define the standards for the modern jazz we have today (Armstrong, Parker, Miles, Coltrane, Charlie Christian...). Like it or not, that is where the music comes from; and will always come from. You have to pay those dues first, before you call yourself an "innovative force in the music". Miles did; Herbie did; Chick did; Cannonball did; Benson did; Weather Report did; Yellowjackets did; Spyro Gyra did; Kenny Gorelick did not. I just think that it is ABOUT TIME that someone with the musical clout and credibility like "the" Pat Metheny, finally said something about the state of jazz in this context. Giving respect and credit where it is due to those masters who started it all; and, letting people know that so many of the popular high-profile musicians are not necessarily the one's who should be plastered everywhere. I don't think that the general listening public has to be fed a consistent diet of this "watered down" jazz on the scale that seems to be the trend over the last decade or so -- I thank Mr. Metheny for voicing that too in a sense. People can handle the more involved styles of jazz too and I wish that those in control of exposing such artists would WAKE UP and hear the music too. That's the only way more people will be able to speak for themselves - the people can't decide for themselves if the other styles of jazz are buried. Any form of serious art relies upon proficiency over popular-hype at some point. That's a junior-high school mentality, to like something because of the way the artist looks or gyrates on stage -- puuulleeeezzz... I don't "blame" Kenny Gorelick for his popularity; nor for taking advantage of it. Kenny G is really just another copycat who marketed himself well and filled a niche, (Boyz 2 Men = NSync; Jackson 5 = Osmonds; Grover Washington, Jr. = Kenny G) so what's new. A lot of people just get sick of seeing that type of thing go on and on. I also think most so-called "real jazzers/jazz fans" don't like it when people try to make it seem that artists like Kenny G are "all that". Just don't act like you invented what you are doing Kenny - and the same goes to his loyal fans! It just makes you think that whoever devises such marketing logic is truly far removed from the act of making this type of music; it's strictly about trying to exploit the tendencies of a large segment of society and make the largest amount of easy money... You can't fault/blame Kenny G personally for his success. And I don't think that many people really do in this sense. Hey, that is capitalism and it's cool! But, if you have any clue concerning this jazz music of ours, you can't honestly say that the "G-Man" is a musical "force" either... Peace, Chris Burnett http://www.mp3.com/4jazz

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 19:29:41
From:	Michel Taillefer (mtaillefer@comnet.ca)
	I once heard Kenny G say in a interview that he practiced John Coltrane and Charlie Parker solos because he thought the solos were great technical exercises. What is worse, is that he saw the music only for that purpose. Right there, this tells you what kind of a person Kenny G really is and also how he is totally out of touch with jazz and more, with music all together. .....so in short i agree with Pat. I'm glad Pat talk about this because it is time for record compagnies, radio, tv and especially the public, to realize that integrity and honesty is important is all style of music (rock, jazz, folk, avant garde, country, bluegrass, blues, classical, opera ect..) and also, all other art forms. Be dance, visual art, theatre, film ect.... Right on Pat, Michel Taillefer, Canada

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 19:48:46
From:	dg (duah@excite.com)
	I support Pat Metheny's comments 100%!!!

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 20:41:47
From:	David Kelly (davidkelly@softhome.net)
	It’s ridiculous and incredibly unprofessional of Mr. Metheny to attack Kenny G in this fashion, I know Kenny G is the butt of many jokes and hated by many so called jazz purist’s, but with regard this tribute album what he seems to have missed completely is that as Kenny G out sells both Metheny and the great Louis's Armstrong, he could introduce a whole new audience to Louis's music. As Clapton did with the blues I’m must admit I’m not a great fan of Mentheny or Kenny G, but I respect them both as musicians and they are both good at what they do…. But Pat Mentheny has just gone down in my estimations… but then we all say stupid things at something, we just aren’t all quoted in public.

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 21:20:18
From:	Brent
	I've been into jazz for about 45 years and I thought Pat's comments were way outa line. His downright rudeness is only exceeded by his stupid logic. Sure....G's music isn't for everyone....hell....some days when I get home from work I'm in a mood for Miles, other days it might be Wes Montgomery or Oscar Peterson.....on the other hand, there are days when I find "G's" music just about right! In reading all of the above comments one things certain....there's alot of folks out there who are just plain jealous of Kenny G's success and all that money he's making. I still have a fondness for Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman....they were considered smooth, non-progressive musicians in their day.....and Kenny G isn't much different today, except for all the hi-tech crap that we must contend with....even on some of Pat's tracks. Jazz is like "beauty"....its in the eyes of the beholder, that's what makes it fabulous and irreplacable. Pat's got a problem (whatever it is) and so the jerk needs to go out on a rampage and create some controversy so that his sagging popularity will get some sort of "jumpstart" on his next mediocre album. Do what ya "gotta" do, Pat.....enjoy it while you can....but....its not going to sell more of your CD's! I've got a few of your CD's and all I can say is "you're slipping, son"...maybe you ought to try politics since you're such a pro at sling'in mud!!

 

Date:	28-Jun-2000 22:27:08
From:	Joe G (joegold58@hotmail.com)
	I always enjoy taking the devil's advocate approach. If there's a market for the kind of music Kenny G performs, then he has every right to do what he wants. And even if there was no market or demand for what he does, then he STILL has every right. I don't have any Kenny G CD's, but one of his sidemen gave me a couple of tickets for one of his shows last year. I'll admit it really wasn't my cup of tea musically, but the musicianship in the band was top notch. (esp keyboardist Onaje Allen Gumbs) What really caught my attention was the crowd response. The audience was totally into it and having a great time. What's wrong with that?... I thought to myself, "good for Kenny G"! I actually enjoyed seeing all these people having a great time. I was watching the crowd probably more than the stage. It was fun! No, it was not "straight-ahead" stuff, but who says it has to be? (although, they did perform a small set of straight-ahead "ish" stuff with an upright bass, and much smaller set of drums) From a technical standpoint, the sound system was about the best I've heard at any live performance. Everyone has different tastes in music. You have folks who love Muzak to folks who love Roland Kirk. So we like what we like & the world goes on. What good does it do to put down Kenny G? Not everyone is going to like Coltrane & Miles. I don't think Kenny G claims he's playing jazz. It's instrumental pop with "hints" of jazz within. Kenny G is to "smooth jazz" what "N-Sync" & Brittany Spears are to "pop" music. Best, Joe G

 

Date:	29-Jun-2000 04:55:31
From:	jazzzluver
	hillary--- you r one crazzy lady. You should stop by a music store and pick up john scofields new cd or maybe dave weckls synergy. Pat is a hero to all jazz fans and a great musician as well.

 

Date:	29-Jun-2000 04:55:50
From:	arvind
	I think that kenny-G is great, I feel that he deserves every bit of success, he has worked hard and I think it's paid off. I believe that he should if anything inspire other young and upcoming musicians to work hard.

 

Date:	29-Jun-2000 05:59:08
From:	ron@whoneedsmailbombs.com (ron@whoneedsmailbombs.com)
	Bottom line: Play what ya wanna play and &^%$#@ the critics. Play on Kenny. My bet is Kenny G is a better guy to sit down and share a cuppa with than Pat--but all I have is quotes to go by. I could be wrong. Ron

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 06:56:07
From:	ralph weedon (ralphweedon@hotmail.com)
	What I am hoping is this:- The phenomenon of Kenny "Gimp" is just another nightmare, and one day we will wake up and there will be no sign of him or his ghastly CD's... Ronnie Scott once said of Glenn Miller something like "it was a shame he died and that his music didn't". I quite agree. Let's all pray that KG's music does not live on. I once entered a phone-in quiz on London's Jazz FM back in the days when they actually played music, and was asked by presenter Jezz Nelson (now a BBC1 Tomorrow's world presenter) - "OK Ralph, difficult question coming up - this one's for 2 points and will take you into the lead:- ... (hushed silence... tension....) "Name me one good thing about Kenny G" .... long pause, while I thought....I thought and thought and thought. and then replied, thinking I was going to lose the points: "I can't actually think of anything nice to say about him." Jez: Correct answer, well done - two points.... Ironically these days this station does more to popularise bad music than even the rest of the dross-saturated drivel that saturates the UK FM dial. And that's what we are talking about - not jazz, or who's better than who, or whether Pat has a silly haircut as well (he does by the way), but good music vs. bad music. I hate labels, but I can't hear any musical content in poor old Kenny's misguided and embarrassing outbursts... I'm actually getting quite down just being constantly reminded that this stuff exists. It's bad enough switching on the radio without reading e-mails from so called fans of the "Gusset"... I am constantly amazed that people can have a strong positive response to something so bland and trite. What really gets me is that fans of the G take the position that any criticism is unjustified, unwarranted and unfair. Anybody that releases as many audio crimes against humanity as this weasily poodle should definitely be brought to heel by the jazz police. Having said that, us musicians, horrified by the success of some of the worst fusak of all time, should consider the fact that we could unwittingly be making a martyr of the man with no shame... ....this all reminds me of a general theme born out in Kurt Vonnegut's output as a novelist: "How does one remain sane in a world that has clearly gone mad?".

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 11:06:21
From:	stokes (jstokes@onramp.net)
	kudus to methany for having the balls to say what many of us think, including ALL my acquaintances that know even the slightest about jazz, and what i have never seen a critic have the guts to say. Lambaste the likes of G and John Tesh, and the others that would pander to the mass without musical integrity. of course i have to laugh because you here these guys (and the pandering ladies like shania twain) all over the easy-listening and chick-station airwaves. so occasionally i have to ask myself, what the f**k do i know? then i turn up coltrane or miles and know i am right!

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 14:22:40
From:	HOWARD B
	I believe that Metheny's comments were to harsh. I believe that many people will enjoy Kenny G's efforts. If so, that is one of the primary purposes of music - to provide enjoyment. As the old saying goes, different strokes for different folks. There are many types of music that provide enjoyment for their fans and crossover musicians are commonplace. If Pat Methany, whose music I personally enjoy, does not like Kenny G's overdubbing with Louis Armstrong he is entitled to his opinion. Since many others will enjoy the effort, it is, in my opinion a worthwhile endeavor.

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 15:49:19
From:	oman (oman@pacifier.com)
	Who is it that is giving Kenny G the genre of Jazz? It really resides in the 'smooth pop' genre. What is up with the Radio Architecture's dominion? Remember, the issues to be really concerned about is: 1. Truthfulness 2. Authenticity 3. The application of points 1 and 2 to the uninitiated. With that said, there needs to be more air-time for the Real Thing and I do not see that happening very often from a 'commercialized' standpoint. So, how will we get this truth and authenticity to the masses? oman.

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 19:13:03
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	I was thinking that a lot of people who are posting here in defense of Kenny G may not know about the slew of recordings in Jazz that they might like, but have never gotten exposed to. Part of the problem with how Kenny has been marketed is that people think that they are hearing a "Jazz" record, when they are really listening to Easy Listening music. If you are curious about finding out what real jazz is like, I suggest you go on sites that have audio samples and try to hear just a little bit of each of these recommendations: Bill Evans-Sunday at the Village Vanguard Bill Evans with Toots Thielemans-Affinity Ben Webster-Jazz 'Round Midnight Jan Garbarek-Photo With Blue Sky Wes Montgomery-The Incredible... Stan Getz-Nobody Else But Me Sonny Criss-Complete Imperial Sessions Miles Davis-Kind of Blue Kevin Eubanks-Shadow Prophets Wynton Marsalis-J Mood -and if you're not too bruised: Pat Metheny-Still Life (Talking) I felt very comfortable recommending these albums-they are all very lyrical, accessable, and very much a part of the jazz continuum. I'm sure others out there will have other suggestions, I just hope that some people will take the time to listen to some of these works of art, and get a chance to dive headlong into checking out what jazz is really like. Thanks-Rick

 

Date:	30-Jun-2000 22:48:25
From:	Mike Eben (trane 1 2b@aol.com)
	I haven't read all the comments, but has anyone heard that Celine Dion recorded a track with Frank Sinatra...? Maybe she and G could hook up and teach us all what jazz really is (choke)

 

Date:	01-Jul-2000 03:00:05
From:	Steven S.
	"Real" jazz is, and will always be, music for musicians, and one thing that makes jazz so unique is the fact that only very few people out there actually "get" the music. That put aside, there's an ironic twist to all of this Jazz v. Smooth Jazz ruckus. Let's be sensible here for a moment...As a budding jazz pianist, I've grown to love jazz to its core, and I can admit that if I could, I'd be playing "real" jazz all the time...but then the money factor creeps in, and yes, we all need money. My point is, that I can remember a time very early in my piano life, that I was playing some of Kenny G's music at gigs, and making a lot of money doing it. Even though I didn't really care much for the music, it gave me money, and the means to buy the keyboard of my dreams, as well as the Jazz cds that would greatly influence me later...the bigger point you ask? Well, art can only truly be appreciated by artists, but money is what gives the artist the means to better express himself/herself. The irony is that even though the jazz community shuns Kenny G. for his pathetic exploits of the great Louis Armstrong, it should also be noted that with his popularity, Kenny G. has also brought much needed attention to Jazz as a whole. Think about it...a Kenny G. fan goes looking for one of his cds and comes across "some guy named Joshua Redman." "Well," says the ignorant fan in a rather doofy voice, "The cover says that he's a rising star in the Jazz world...maybe I should check it out." Ironic isn't it? If more people out there decided to check out a "real" jazz cd, Jazz would finally get the attention and honor that it deserves, but until that happens... let the musak play, so that jazz musicians can get their pay.

 

Date:	01-Jul-2000 14:05:21
From:	George
	Kenny G reminds of Al Jolson....singing MAMMY! 60 yrs. later! What a joke! Even white folks don't like him! Now that's bad....bad...bad...

 

Date:	01-Jul-2000 14:23:26
From:	Tabitha Elkins (tabithablue@yahoo.com)
	A while back, late at night, I had a crazy dream. I was in a little village in Germany where a Jazz Festival was being held. In my hand was a large manila envelope, containing a music chart covered with an invisible poison. My job, as emissary of the International Jazz Conspiracy to Kill Kenny G, was to deliver the envelope to Kenny G, who, after opening it up, would immedietly die. In my dream, the plan was successful, and I suddenly found myself summoned into the presence of God, who was seated on a white throne. God was pissed off. "I'm very dissapointed in you.", God said angrily, "Don't you know it's a sin to kill?" "But Lord," I sputtered,"Kenny G SUCKS! Everybody knows that!" "I know", God said, sighing, "But you still don't have a right to kill him. Besides, SOME people like his music, and it makes 'em happy. Now that you've killed him, all those people down there are crying." And I listened, and, sure enough, I heard the sound of people on Earth crying, and I started to feel ashamed of myself. "I'm sorry, Lord.", I said. God sighed again indulgently, and said,"For what you did, I ought to send you to hell, but I'm going to make you a deal. I'm giving you another chance. Here's what you have to do. You have to go backwards in time, and get the poison chart out of Kenny G's hands, and take the poison yourself. Then you will have redeemed yourself, and you can join me up here, instead of going down to that "other" place. "Okay, I'll do it", I said, feeling relieved. Next thing I know, I'm back down on Earth, running towards the little German village, trying to get there in time to get that envelope... then I woke up.(real dream-no shit) What does this mean? I don't know- that I have a deep-seated hatred of lousy music? that I secretly want to kill Kenny G? or that I shouldn't eat Mexican food before bedtime? I dunno- but I'm relived to find that I'm not the only one who feels disgust at the proliferation of pseudo-"jazz". Fortunately, much of the really putrid crap of today is destined to be forgotton tomorrow (to be replaced by other putrid crap). Keep playing REAL Jazz. #@&# Kenny G!

 

Date:	01-Jul-2000 14:25:41
From:	Rocco Bueti (RBueti@aol.com)
	I wouldn't be pulled in to a pointless debate over what jazz is unless I had just seen a performance by the PM-trio. Kenny G whiz should put out Kareoke records if he's going to steal from the dead like that. Jazz is to perform freely within some context, live as you can be in the moment. I'd rather listen to fledglings fight for the right note than something so creamy and polished as G-crap. The problem is the dead can't complain, but we can- Kenny G(raverobber) I saw Metheney his first year out kind of awful with a little too much newagey-chorus pedal sound which is what they love over at smoothworld and play adinfinitum to the tonedeaf. When I saw him about two months ago he was on an edge taking chances that I hadn't heard before from anyone else, that's what I can appreciate. But Pat lose that five necked monstrosity. They're celebrating Armstrong's 100th birthday everywhere this 4th of July, the best way is to listen to those moments for when they happened and not try to get to the Elvis impe

 

Date:	02-Jul-2000 12:06:53
From:	Arun Dias-Bandaranaike (arundb@lanka.ccom.lk)
	What an interesting set of exchanges! I confess that I am 'entering' at this point, somewhat 'ignorant' of Pat's peeves, save for what I have picked up from the 'thread'. It is a fact, that the marketplace that allows the Gorelick Kennomenon to flourish, has previously taken some of the venerated ones on occasion. Dash it! Even Pops went that way on occasion.( How else would you explain the "Wonderful World" thing?) One can also recall George Shearing, Nat Cole, Jonah Jones, and... wait for it, Dizzy THE Gillespie!(How many of you have heard the truly tasteless "Winchester Cathedral" that he recorded in the '60s; with him singing as well, badly?) The point is, there is a need for the muscular, truly improvisational hard swinging stuff to become more 'commonplace' and "familiar" to the smoothies, before the 'marketplace' changes the direction of its antenna. Then, and only then, will the Gorelick Kennomenon also change his chops and blow a mean stream in the main

 

Date:	02-Jul-2000 19:45:02
From:	jeff ruggles (oniongum@aol.com)
	i have been at the movies on two occasions, listening to "movietunes" play over the head speakers, when i have heard two completely blasphemous remarks: the first..."now here is soprano saxophone genius Kenny G." ...the second saying "here are the jazz trumpet genius Rick Braun and tenor master Boney James." it made me want to cry. the songs come on and you have nothing more than a r&b beat with two horns repeating the same line over and over. it seems to me to that this "jazz" is not about the music. it is about laying down smooth beats to get into the ladies pants. genius or master should never be used in the same sentence as any smooth jazz player. Maybe Kenny G was trying to do a good thing. i'm sure that it was in fact the record labels idea. but by doing for the money he is sacrificing jazz and it's art. Metheny should have said that, he was brave to have done so. I think Kenny G with his crimpped long hair was thinking "i'll update the song and make a few bucks." but, it is Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." it can't be updated. it is an impossibility. so well done to Pat Metheny who is still true to the art of jazz. and Fuck you to Kenny G and all you other smooth jazz players.

 

Date:	03-Jul-2000 01:23:02
From:	Steve
	It's one thing when a pop act like Kenny G disgraces a legend but I think it's even worse when a so called real "Jazz Artist" does it in order to get radio play on the smooth stations. Such as in the instance of Larry Coreyell with Wes Montgomery. Sad, Really Sad. Thanks to Pat for pointing that out as well.

 

Date:	03-Jul-2000 04:53:07
From:	Richard Baker
	Pat never got over the fact that Kenny recorded that duet album with Sinatra,And that Clinton invited him to the white house.Lets face it Pat he doesn't play jazz, but he jazzed your ass pretty good.Grow up..........

 

Date:	03-Jul-2000 12:28:55
From:	Judd Maynard
	Just to make a small point. I would suggest some of you going back to Kenny G,s work with the Jeff Lorber Fusion. He is a good musician and he plays very well with Jeff Lorber. i am not a Kenny G fan at least not any more,although I used to be.He has in the past played some excellent music i hope he returns to music he used to play although I am sur some of you will dismiss fusion as not really being jazz and the battle will rage on.

 

Date:	03-Jul-2000 17:37:43
From:	dave stearns
	Re KENNY G -- three words: BORING BORING BORING. Calling his recordings "jazz" is an abomination. Shearing, Parker, Getz, Tristano, Peterson, Stewart, Pizzarelli, Monk, Davis, Desmond, Gillespie, Byrd and others play(ed) jazz. Kenny G plays elevator music for non-jazz "modernists". Please don't even try to put him in the same category as the prior true giants of the style.

 

Date:	05-Jul-2000 00:54:50
From:	brian c
	I completely agree with Metheny's comments, and it was brave of him to put his neck out like that for the sake of art. It is sad that someone like Kenny G can make millions filling the world with that instrumental-pop, VH1, sacchirin garbage he calls jazz. And it is even more disgusting to search a modern mega-music outlet and find one recording of his outnumbering the combined copies on the shelf of albums of Jarret, Miles, Bill Evans, etc. But I am also not surprised. Look at the success in our society of Britney Spears, Mariah Carey, Pokemon, Fat-free Pringles, linoleum, etc., and it should be no wonder that this non-threatining ear candy(or ear-syrup) has been so succesful.

 

Date:	05-Jul-2000 02:07:05
From:	Mark F.
	Play your axes and leave the criticism to critics. Your music should speak for itself.Now, if a young music student needs direction that is another story.But DONOT preach to me about what is "good" and what is "bad". The good will live forever and the bad will die away. Play Pat,just play.

 

Date:	05-Jul-2000 07:52:30
From:	David - Sydney Australia
	I am a big fan of Pat Metheny. I must say I was surprised at his outburst. It is such a pity that honesty like this gets such a reaction. Kenny G is awful. One of the magical things about art is that we have such variety. I suppose the question to ask is what is art and culture? Somehow even though I hate to admit it ... all forms of art do have a place. But I would still be happy if Australia quarantined the Kenny G type. All the power to Pat Metheny for having the strength to share his thoughts with us. I wonder if Kenny has the strength to deal with it.

 

Date:	05-Jul-2000 09:55:15
From:	Brock in Savannah
	I think that Pat Methaney's comments were right on time! However, these comments don't just apply to Mr. G. To many jazz musciaians today are making a mockery of the greatest artform in the world. The argument often given to me is that "Jazz changes", well that is correct. Miles changed often, but Miles was a genius that stayed rooted in Jazz no matter what he played. Today's contemporary jazz albums have more R&B remakes than a Puff Daddy album. Remember, jazz is great because it is an original and spontaneous artform. Keep real Jazz alive!

 

Date:	05-Jul-2000 11:03:41
From:	Jeff Winbush (zebop@netexp.net)
	God bless Pat Metheny. I recall from Quincy Troupe's bio of Miles Davis when the Dark Magus met the Clown Prince of jazz and sneered, "You're the guy that makes the music chicks like." And being the terminally unhip doofus he is, Kenny G. thought it was a compliment! I've never been much of a Pat Metheny fan and none at all of Kenny Gorelick's noodling placebo "jazz." I've heard the rap that Kenny is a "gateway" artist that may influence novices to jazz to explore further. I'm not buying it. How one makes the leap from DUOTONES to A LOVE SUPREME is beyond me. Jazz is too precious and too powerful a form of music for talentless hacks like Kenny G. to considered a patron saint. Everything that is wrong in jazz is embodied in the bleatings of Kenny.

 

Date:	06-Jul-2000 00:21:08
From:	Lou
	Isn't anyone gonna point out that it wasn't Michelangelo who painted "The Last Supper", it was Leonardo da Vinci? [That was mentioned way back when and it just stuck in my craw...] ;) ;) ;)

 

Date:	06-Jul-2000 19:06:59
From:	Adam (rbikorg@komputer-serwis.com.pl)
	I fully support what Pat said. Music of KennyG is the most stupid and primitive thing I ever listened. Even my 7 year old son said it is shit. But I do not support the idea of "guitar wrapped around his head". His empty head is not worth to destroy a guitar.

 

Date:	07-Jul-2000 09:07:24
From:	Dennis
	My wife plays Kenny G.'s stuff all the time. Makes me want to throw up. It is just too sweet for my taste, and I am someone who likes mellow. Too much sugar will make anyone sick. If someone wants to listen to elevator music, that is their right, just don't call it jazz. I have even heard Kenny's stuff when put on hold on the phone.

 

Date:	07-Jul-2000 12:21:25
From:	Richard
	Who cares what KG records? He's not jazz.

 

Date:	08-Jul-2000 02:08:18
From:	o.bivins (o.bivins@worldnet.att.net)
	Two things I am sick of discussing and having being discussed over and over again on jazz boards; two I dislike with an intense passion: (1) rap and hip-hop music and (2) Kenny G. OK, three.

 

Date:	08-Jul-2000 17:41:30
From:	Matt Rubin (xyd360@yahoo.com)
	Kenny G uses gimmicks like recording over Louis to associate himself with Jazz in the minds of unfamiliar listeners. While I dislike Kenny G's music with a passion, I believe that he does not present a threat to the educated jazz community. Perhaps die hard jazzers can take comfort in the idea that a person might listen to Kenny G on the radio, go looking for a CD in the Jazz rack in a store, and pick up some Stan Getz instead!;-) Matt

 

Date:	08-Jul-2000 17:45:56
From:	Matt Rubin (xyd360@yahoo.com)
	Oh yeah, one more thing. I'd like to know what Wynton Marsalis has to say on the subject. He has previously avoided the subject by dismissing Kenny G as "Instrumental Pop Music," rather than jazz. Recording over Louis ups the stakes a little, don't you think?

 

Date:	08-Jul-2000 18:53:35
From:	Walter Simonsen (Polijazz@aol.com)
	Fact: Pat Metheny said what most of the jazz world has been saying for a long time. He just published it and let it be known. I was discussing this witha private teacher of mine. He told me about this pannel discusison that occured between tenor players, about ten years ago. He told me that Kenny G said something like, "some of us in the music worlk have been very lucky, I feel that I have been one of those few." And when he finished Bradford MArsalis shook his head yes using his entire body to reinforce the fact that Kenny G ahd been very lucky. I feel that Pat Metheny stood up for jazz and what it stood for. Kenny G is not a jazz musican, he sits with the pop bands that have no talent and no origional ideas, yuet for some reason seem to make it big. I dislike Kenny G in many ways. But most of all he alwyas comes off arrogant. He talks like he is the greatest tenorman ever. Sorry Kenny but you should ahve practiced for a few more years rather than looking for the perfect recording to deface with your horrible tone. Go back to the practice room and become a musican. GO PAT, YOU'RE MY HERO!!!

 

Date:	08-Jul-2000 19:35:28
From:	Bob (info@jacksonblue.com)
	It's kind of scary as a musician who just wants to play for the joy of it. (and would be happy with K.G. kind of success). K.G. is like the artist who does commercial drawings, is paid well and goes home to the suburbs versus the starving artist who is more expressive and skilled, but chooses to paint only his/her heart and lives a less than lucrative life. It's about choice. K.G. chose the suburbs because that was an option, otherwise he'd be playing in somebody's band as a sideman, because it's no secret that he's not playing at THAT level. He's got as much in the area of chops as any of these kids churned out of your Jazz Universites, he's just not any better. If he played and stretched constantly, you all might be singing another tune. He got lucky. Bless any player who gets lucky. I'd take it too. When did they tell you that it was going to be fair? When the opinions of what I choose to play may be questioned, no what I choose to call it, I get nervous. I'm not a classical musician. I don't play classical music as a rule, but have performed with the Santa Cruz Symphony. Some people choose to bottle me as a "Jazz Musician" because of ...how I look. I used to resist as I don't play all the standards invented in the "proper" Jazz like manner. I improvise when it feels right. Some people think I'm playing jazz because I don't play the same thing twice (many times because I can't remember what it was I played). One day in a practice room (at the school where I took lessons), an upper classmen walked in and made a snotty comment about "you sure do like tertiaries(triad patterns) don't you?" I was doing my best (with my limitations) to improvise and "feel" the musical moment. I didn't know what he was talking about, but immediately stopped doing whatever it was he said. I changed how I was playing because someone chose to press their preferences on to me. I should have told him, "if you don't like what I'm playing, then don't listne and by the way, why were you trying so hard to figure it out what I was doing?". But I was too intimidated. To define Jazz is to kill the spirit of it. Spontaneous variations on themes by classical composers like Bach would evolve spontaneously during live performances. Was that Jazz? Most "jazzers" use rules. Play in a key (rule) or use a mode (rule) follow a format(rule). So is it jazz because a player can't or doesn't play consistently? So George Winston is Jazz right? What do you mean? The Jazz police offend me. To define Jazz is to kill it. Music creates a very personal momentary relationship with expression. What you heard and how you felt about what you heard when you heard it. Does it matter what you called it?Many players don't know every cliche harmonic run or lick that "tricks" people into making a comment like, "now that's Jazz". We can certainly go to school and "study" how to "play jazz"(according to somebody). How many of you were in K.G.'s head when he played one of his seemingly heartfelt solos using those obvoiusly "studied"? How we sound as players is a combination of our skills (what we can play, how well we groove, how in tune we are), our limitations (what we are unable to play, how much in tune we are'nt, our inablility to groove) and the choices we make when we do play. Success is using your strengths, while avoiding letting your weaknesses overshadow your connection to the listener(That's called your voice). Hell, K.G. isn't the only out of tune horn player out there. I was born with perfect pitch. Nothing I did. I tuned pianos for a while for money. Most players are out of tune at times. Hell, I could never convince my rock band growing up that Miles Davis was a visionary, because they couldn't get past the unfiltered, mistake peppered performances that move true fans to tears. They would say "he makes mistakes, he's not so great!". Go figure. Now Kenny rarely makes mistakes because he stays on safe ground (respects his limitations). Most people equate good to flawless. K.G. stays within his limitations quite well. With so much on the line, so would I. And becaue he does, he makes bank. I was personally offended when I heard K.G. do the Louis Armstrong rip-off. I think many of us thought, "I can't believe he has the balls to place himself in the same universe with Louis". I think Pat may have hurt himself saying what we were all thinking. Time will tell. My wife listens to K.G. How many of you make love to Freedom Jazz Dance? I've taken her to a concert. Good musicians, good times had by the audience listening to music. Excellent sound and production. What more do you want? She takes me or I take her to the local Smooth Jazz concerts - you've got Smooth Jazz Artist and then you've got Jazz Artist. Maybe there should be a degree, or a license to call yourself a Jazz artist. Did you suffer, are you poor, were you poor, did you play every standard in proper style for $2 an hour for 15 years? You can't have grown up with money, you can't be a non-ethnic, you can't have discovered your love of this music late in your life. The initiation: Do you pledge to hate other players who choose to play music other than you, do you pledge to degrade other's success due to their choices, do you pledge to be resistant to change, do you pledge to conform to the Jazz Police, do you pledge to keep jazz as we say it was and will be forever amen? Well I just got through thinking about the variety of music we call jazz, from Sonny Stitt, Coltrane to Cecil Taylor or Sun Ra. It's about suffering. To define Jazz is to kill Jazz. So when the local highschool band warms up (never playing the same thing...) is it Jazz? It sure sounds a lot like so called Free Jazz. No wait, is it Bop? No is it swing? Most big bands had a lot of fixed melodies (we call them heads) and ensemble(tutti) section work that NEVER varied. Some of it has lots of notes (ala Thundering Herd). It was written down just like classical music. So the only part that was Jazz was the solo? Is it Jazz because we can't comprehend it? Then so is Wagner and Jonatan Cage. When listening to those amazingly complex heads of Chick Corea and Origin, is the only part that is Jazz the solo? To define Jazz is to kill it. My group (Jackson Blue) makes a lot of people happy with what some may define as Jazzak. It's all original. We call ourselves a Jazz Funk group. I'm getting very afraid now. (www.jacksonblue.com)Let me know. Or should I release my version of Giant Steps? I know, give me a catagory that will define what it is we do. Let me know. I'm an engineer, I had to get certifications I guess so people could be sure of what to call me. Maybe that's what has to happen to Jazz. Then something else will have to unfold representing freedom of expression, it certainly won't be called Jazz. That's my two cents. (Yes I read the entire thread before commenting) Regards, BobFunk

 

Date:	09-Jul-2000 09:13:06
From:	Violet (vaturner@aol.com)
	I'm much more acquainted with protocol regarding the blues than jazz. If I am off the mark, please feel free to gently reprimand me. :-) Much like Bob Funk alluded to, there are layers of issues here, many unrelated, some integrated. First of all, should a professional musician openly criticize another professional musician? No matter what profession we're in, that is a pretty taboo and brazen act. I also think it's brave. As a teacher, there is an unspoken "rule" that we do not allow students to openly discuss that "jerk" who taught whatever. At the same time, as someone who works really hard on a variety of levels to reach my students, I sometimes think we do a disservice by not being more open regarding the flotsam and jetsam of the profession. You may not agree with Pat Metheney, but he's certainly entitled, perhaps even required, to speak openly about musicians and artists in his field. You can then read it, agree or disagree, and move on. Ditto for Kenny G. Which leads to the second point, I suspect that Metheney doesn't recognize Kenny G. as an artist, but rather sees him as an entertainer. What Kenny G. did by electronically intruding into Louis Armstrong's classic would be in Metheney's mind the equivalent to me adding a few touches to Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel. When I sign my name beside his there is an implication that I share in his greatness. Anyone would see the ludicrousness of that, even if I was a really good painter! I agree with Metheney about it being necrophelia in the sense that since L.Armstrong is dead, he cannot protect himself from such marauders who steal into his vision and talent. I think had Kenny G. done a freestanding cover, then it would have been as simple as he sucked or he didn't. Doing what he did, the way he did, in a sense defiled Louis Armstrong. It also reeks of ego gone astray. I agree with Bob, that in terms of entertainment, really anything goes. I also, however, as contradictory as it seems agree with Metheney, that when entertainers take art and affix themselves to it for easy profit with the secondary desire to up their credibility they need to be called to task. Perhaps that is an essential rule to establish with children who still possess pure creativity, or at least vision that is less contaminated than adults. By distinguishing early on how to make use of their unique abilities not only do you give them the right foundation for originality you teach them how to be better critics of the abundance of garbage that will be heaped on them throughout their lives. It can be very difficult to identify the diamonds under all that refuse, but it's worthwhile to cultivate that talent at a young age. Finally, in the tradition of the blues, bluesmen always stole from each other. One would stand on one corner watching another across the street picking up extra change, and he would steal the other's lines, add his own, make the music his. Obviously sampling is rooted in this practice. It's also been a tradition to cover someone else's original composition, sometimes making it better than original, sometimes ruining it. In that case, it's fair game to attack the cover or to praise it. There is, however, a huge difference between integrating or accenting your own music with someone else's or just covering it, and actually taking someone's recording, singing along, and calling it yours. Evidently this is in essence what Kenny G. did, although he did it with an instrument other than his voice. I can easily see why any artist would see this as stealing and view it as a threat to art everywhere. Anytime you critique art, it's obvious that all commentary is based on opinion. Metheney was certainly entitled to his. Violet

 

Date:	09-Jul-2000 22:04:30
From:	Richard Baker
	Adam you wrote,I fully support what Pat said.Music of Kenny G.is the most primitive thing I ever listened to.Even my 7 year old son said it was shit. Adam you have my vote for "Hippest Father of the YEAR" I bet if someone should ask you ,Who Thelonius is? you would say,WHAT's HIS LAST NAME???????????

 

Date:	10-Jul-2000 18:52:58
From:	Lucianne Evans (luciannevans@aol.com)
	What Metheny said was a "one off", fueled by his desire to make jazz viable for everyone. For most of his career, he has been compared to Kenny G., not for playing, or music at all, but for the dollar sign over his head in the face of his record companies, who care more about that, even at the expense of their own ideals. It would drive me nuts, woyldn't it drive you nuts! So, he wasn't nice. Maybe he feels better of worse for it now, but I think he must be a "live and let live" kind of a guy who finally had it with the whole phenomenon. What Pat said was a "one off", however Kenny G's decision to play over Louis was a long premeditation.

 

Date:	10-Jul-2000 22:08:51
From:	Stan
	I think that pat is totally correct. How can Kenny G put himself up with one of the greatest jazz musicians ever. Kenny blows.

 

Date:	11-Jul-2000 07:01:44
From:	NICKY (Dorras@btinternet. com)
	Isn't this the same Kenny G. that was lampooned by Waynes World. They likened listening to Kenny as being the equivalent of undergoing root canal. Isn't this the same guy lampooned by Krusty the Clown on the Simpsons, "here's $200 get Kenny G. to play in the elevator for me" Surely Kenny must be used this sort of stuff by now. Ralph Weedon (any relation to Bert) was absolutely right, Britains only Jazz radio station has been taken over by smooth jazz and for those of us who hate this sort of music to have a musician of Pat Methenys stature nail his colors to the mast in this way was most gratifying. WELL DONE PAT.

 

Date:	11-Jul-2000 14:43:55
From:	dan patten (dpatten@mtt.ca)
	i agree with metheny....kenny g isn't even in grover washington's league let alone webster's,lockjaw's,hawkin's, bird's, etc etc.....in all honesty i have been listening to jazz and following the scene since the sixties and i proably wouldn't put metheny in the upper class of guitarists either. pass,ellis,hall,montgomery,green,grimes,van eps,byrd etc etc i don't find it a bit discomforting to see kenny g on the same stage with louis!! besides oscar and jimmy all great jazzers are black and dead...not quite that cut and dry but a good rule of thumb

 

Date:	11-Jul-2000 18:11:36
From:	Al Hager (alhager@hisfa.net)
	The existence of this entire discussion is pathetic. The fact is that xx% of everything is crap and xx% of the population are idiots. I don't know the actual percentages :-) but I know that it is true and that there isn't anything I can do about it.

 

Date:	11-Jul-2000 22:07:02
From:	Derrick Smith (derrasm@hotmail.com)
	"One night, in the early seventies, at Ronnie Scott's club in London, Rahsaan held a note for two hours and twenty-seven seconds. He had his own version of circular breathing, and playing for a half hour or an hour without taking a breath was something he did all the time. On this particular night he was on a mission: he'd invited people from the Guinness Book Of World Records to the club to verify what he hoped would be the world's record for holding a note. I wasn't there but Rah, the guys in the band and some friends from England all told me held the note. For reasons that have never been clear to me (I think Rah got into some kind of hassle with them) the Guinness people refused to recognize his feat. He hated them until the day he died. Why am I mentioning this? Well, recently Kenny G, with as much fanfare and press, radio and TV coverage I've ever seen, held a note without taking a breath for about forty-five minutes and claimed the world's record. Personally, I could care less who has the longest fingernails in Bombay, who can eat the most hard boiled eggs at one sitting or, to be totally honest with you, who can hold the longest note. But it's not about what I think, it's about how Rah would feel if he were here. And since he's not, I'll act in his stead. Dear Mr. Kenny G, Please be advised that when you hold a note for two hours and twenty-eight seconds, you'll be the official holder of the world's record for holding a note. Very Truly Yours, Joel Dorn On behalf of the late, great, one-of-a-kind miracle, baddest motherfucker ever, Rahsaan Roland Kirk." (From the ACES BACK TO BACK liner notes.)

 

Date:	12-Jul-2000 11:38:55
From:	Ken Dryden (kenjazz@vei.net)
	Derrick Smith's comments remind me of other jazz musicians who use a bit of showmanship without diluting the music. Clark Terry is a great example; not only has he utilized circular breathing, but he has held a flugelhorn upside down to play it from underneath and on many occasions alternated between a trumpet and flugelhorn (one in each hand) during a song, both on stage and in the studio. Roland Kirk's ability to play several instruments at once and alternate between them wasn't just a circus stunt; it was musically valid. I've yet to hear ANYTHING by Kenny G, Boney James, Rick Braun or any of that crowd that didn't nauseate me; though at least the latter two didn't have the audacity to use the work of a musical icon without his permission. Grover Washington, Jr. is another story; even if you don't care for his smooth jazz recordings (I don't), he still had a legitimate sound when he chose to record in a atraight ahead jazz setting. Musicians who pretty much stick to playing smooth jazz never get rid of that awful tone; the best comparison is the Star Trek episode where several of the crew are beamed into an alternate universe where everyone on the Enterprise is a savage. Captain Kirk and Company figure out how to fit in very quickly; but are surprised to learn that their savage counterparts were quickly thrown in the brig after arrival. Also remember the cool reception Miles gave to Wynton when the younger man showed up unannounced and try to sit in during a concert. Imagine if G had tried the same thing; Miles might have physically attacked him! Until a smooth jazz musician shows an ability to improvise and not stick to R&B riffs and repetitious phrases, he or she will never be taken serious by any fan of real jazz; he or she will be just another instrumental pop musician. They have every right to play and record their music, but it has nothing to do with jazz. I like Russell Malone's recent quip in Phil Woods' column "Phil In The Gap" (in the Al Cohn Memorial Newsletter): "Kenny G Plays Monk: Straight, No Changes and 'Round Noon."

 

Date:	13-Jul-2000 23:51:17
From:	manders (manders@xsite.net)
	At the risk of not being read all the way at the bottom of the thread, I take my chances and add a couple of thoughts: First off - I'm a massive Pat fan, and what little I've heard of Kenny G has annoyed me. But one of the reasons why I am such a big fan of Pat's stems from an interview I have with him from somewhere back in the late 70's in which he spends most of the conversation reiterating his belief that in order to play jazz correctly (hang in there) it is incumbent upon a player to know what has come before him in the lineage of jazz history. Not necessarily play the same thing, or even be influenced outright by someone or something, but to KNOW what has come before so that you understand the language of African American Classical Music. Implicit in such a message is the assumption that in knowing the lineage the music has taken before it got to you, you had to recognize the value of the players who came before - their artistry, their passion, their genius; so that you were well grounded in what the music was about before you went and tried to do the same thing they did before you - play with the form, and create music. Assuming that that is why you came in the first place. The idea that you need to know what came before is one of the most appealing things I've found about jazz - besides the obvious emotional and spiritual enjoyment it brings me, it allows me to participate, in a small and passive way, with a vast history of beauty and creativity that that is bigger than I am. This idea is one of the things Pat has enabled me to see (As I sat through the "Song X" show, dumbfounded but jealous I didn’t know enough to understand what was happening.) Jazz is filled with figures who would argue much the same thing. So what does this all mean? Simply this: in a world in which history and values centered around creativity, individuality, and dedication are trampled upon on a daily basis, some things deserve to remain sacred, whether they are acknowledged by the public at large as such or not. The fact that Starbucks buys up the right to market the Blue Note record label as if it was nothing more than a marketing ploy specifically designed to tie in to a coffee blend sold to twenty-somethings devoid of the ability to develop a hip quotient without corporate direction doesn't mean that placing the Coltrane CD next to the frappacino sign to sell more cups of joe isn't a crime. If for no other reason than the fact that Coltrane would not have shilled in such a manner. And someone, somewhere, be it the producer, record label, or the notion of an informed, critical buying public, should have said: Hey, wait a minute. Isn't Louis Armstrong one of the pillars of our history and culture as a people? And, if so, shouldn't there be a moratorium on appropriating his work as if it was solely another commodity to be added into the mix to please the boys up in the marketing department? I think that's what Pat was saying.

 

Date:	14-Jul-2000 13:01:06
From:	hookman
	Kenny rules!

 

Date:	15-Jul-2000 17:24:34
From:	c patrick coyne (patrick701@yahoo.com)
	blah blah blah blah. Thank God someone had the guts to stand up for the atrocity that Kenny G. performed upon the world, and double thanks for him being Mr. Metheny, who, no matter what you think of his music or ideas, has never been anything but dignified in all aspects of what he does. What mr. G did was commerce, not music. Technology has made possible the equivalent of having sex with a dead man for money - i.e. "jamming with Louis", and Kenny G did just that. NEC-RO-PHIL-IA. Look it up, and think about this, because it is very important.

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 06:15:27
From:	eurotrash
	C'mon guys, let's be serious. Kenny G plays trash, OK, so what ? Do you think his fans would dig better music if he wasn't around ? Let's face it, the world is full of people who love elevator music and there's nothing much you can do about it. As for Pat Metheny's comments, they're funny, but he should have kept them private. Why risk being sued ? Finally, I haven't heard the Kenny G tune Pat was referring to, but I know "What a Wonderful World". As much as I love Pops, it's certainly not one of his crowning achievements. So acting like the G desecrated the temple seems a bit overblown. Personnaly, I find the use of good music in commercials much more annoying.

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 13:46:39
From:	Arvid Jårkinssonneger
	I think Kenny G´s music is a load of crap!!!! Thanks for Metheny!!! You stood up and said what the whole jazz world has been wanting to say for years but no-one has yet dared. If I´m asked, Kenny G. should stuck his smooth-ringing soprano where the sun don´t shine!!!!!!!

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 14:29:27
From:	Tony Thomas
	It's incredible to see this much commentary on the virtues and/or vices of one man's artistic process! Personally, I don't resent someone trying to make a buck in the music business(OBVIOUSLY, KG has figured out how to do that!). I could devote time here to voice my criticisms of Kenny's thing, as it is easy for any caring player or listener to find things to pick apart about anything available for perusal. However, my preference is to be my own harshest critic,to worry about the integrity, artfulness, and net effect of my own creations/creativity. This is what lets me sleep well at night, not whether I've done a good job of "policing the arts" that particular day.

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 17:32:20
From:	diana
	i still don't understand why kenny G's stuff is in the jazz section of the music store...He should have his own section...far far away. II don't want to bash him but the music industry has gotten away from what true jazz is; what kenny G plays is not jazz but easy listening. He's good at that, so it should go in the easy listening section, not the jazz. I ask people what they think of jazz, and the first thing they say is Kenny G. I'm young myself, but I know this is a sign that jazz has made a step backwards.

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 17:37:21
From:	diana (Dhdrum33@aol.com)
	i still don't understand why kenny G's stuff is in the jazz section of the music store...He should have his own section...far far away. II don't want to bash him but the music industry has gotten away from what true jazz is; what kenny G plays is not jazz but easy listening. He's good at that, so it should go in the easy listening section, not the jazz. I ask people what they think of jazz, and the first thing they say is Kenny G. I'm young myself, but I know this is a sign that jazz has made a step backwards.

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 18:52:44
From:	milt boj
	Yes, i agree with Metheny. Because Kenny G isn't Jazz. It is "easy" listening. Ja ja ja jaaaaaaa...

 

Date:	17-Jul-2000 19:33:19
From:	Mariam (mariamayub@hotmail.com)
	Listening to you guys, I would have to say you all need help. I mean, music is music. And people are going to listen to what they want to. If it moves them, that is a bonus. I pride myself on checking everything out, and I am a big fan of contemporary jazz, but I have also made sure to check out the classics and understand its roots. I have listened to acid jazz, experimental jazz, and latin jazz. I have listened to Metheny, and G and I have appreciation for them both. Why? Well, maybe it is because I am not so embroiled in my own "holier-than-thou" opinion to actually appreciate when an artist makes music and makes a statement. I will give you some background and go ahead with the slings and arrows, but I really couldn't give a crap. I am a huge Madonna fan, and have been for the last 17 years. (NO, I am not a teenybopper, but 27 years old). It just so happens that there are those who lambaste the Mariah Carey's and Celine Dion's of this world, and call themselves Madonna fans, but it saddens me that they can't just say, "you know what? I just don't listen to their music. It's not my style" Get it? There is a difference between saying, "You know, I wish that those who listen to Kenny G covering the greats, would then make sure to go to the originals and experience them as they were meant to be listened to, and I appreciate G for helping them experience that." I came to jazz very indirectly, and I am thankful to those artists today who are helping me discover more of what a great musical world jazz is. (all kinds, guys, all kinds) You guys need to learn manners, and grace and realize when you are mad at commercialism of music and not take it out on a human being. Because heaven forbid I would ever say, "you know what? I like smooth jazz." Since you are incapable of having the intelligence to speak about someone else without lambasting them, you really should think about why this is such an issue with you. Because I know a lot of people hate Madonna, but I am also adult enough to appreciate our differences. As for Kenny G, he is in inspiration to those who will pick up an instrument because they saw him play. Anyone who gets that feeling in motion means something to someone. I hope that he, his family, and friends never take your crap seriously. I never would, you guys disgust me. Mariam

 

Date:	18-Jul-2000 06:09:53
From:	Rafael Mirabal (rafaelmirabal@hotmail.com)
	If you speak about lame-ass then we all should be not writing anything about all this. You know why? Because you now disrespected some of us talking and writing in that G language. We that were dreaming of you as an ideal human being, now find out that you also have our same terrenal feelings and make the same mistakes. You just felt in the obscure waters of Kenny's world and lead us all there and we found out that it's not the same you that played a solo on "Are you going with me" or went to a travel in that train and toke us to our most remarkable place in our hearts. Now we see that the train is not going with you and that there was not any chance to get MAS ALLA. I'm sorry Pat but I will give another chance like We all do with ourselfs when we make mistakes, but please don't do it again. Let him go through his own road, and if it is wrong, just God will know not you or me, because you know that life is not only about Armstrong or did you forget about the children from Camboya in Secret Story? screaming for you to make a Hit album?

 

Date:	18-Jul-2000 18:03:16
From:	Paul Harwood (blues@trip.to)
	I understood it as lacking " class " to put down other cats. To disect a musician's style in a classroom or use someone's performance or composition as an example of how not to , is one thing. But not in public media. This issue was all over the local media, during the recent Montreal International Jazz Festival. I'm sure Kenny's crying all the way to the bank. Paul Harwood Local 406, AFM www.trip.to/blues

 

Date:	19-Jul-2000 22:43:31
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	I think those of you that are flaming us for getting on Kenny G's ass are forgeting one thing. This is a JAZZ website. This kind of discussion would be totally out of line on rollingstone.com, madonna.com, or hamburger.com. You'll probably say that is an elitist view. Well, I believe we have a responibility to be somewhat elitist about our arts and culture. It is not just enough to be able to read-we need to be able to tell people that there is a difference between Jackie Collins and Ernest Hemingway, and be able to explain those differences. Most people who post here do have a deeper knowedge about the history of jazz than the general population. Frankly, that's why I put a posting in here about jazz releases to check out if you like Kenny G. The main reason I did that is so that people can check out samples on any one of the many on-line music shops and broaden their listening tastes to cover actual jazz artists. It's because I love and respect artists like Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, and Billy Holiday, and beacause part of showing respect for those artists is letting others know when someone is passing themselves off as a "Jazz" artist, or leeching on to someone else's greatness, like Kenny G did to Louis Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong can't speak for himself right now, so maybe people like Pat need to. I don't mean to say that you can't listen to and like Madonna, Richard Clayderman, Metallica, or whatever else you want to hear. I just don't think it serves any benefit for anybody to think Kenny G is a jazz artist just because he plays a sax, or deserves any respect for the "artistic" choices he has made. As for laughing all the way to the bank-I wish I could be so shallow. Woody Herman died poor-guess who gets invited to play in the great after-hours club in the sky?

 

Date:	19-Jul-2000 23:03:29
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	By the way, do you folks think we've beaten all the glue out of this dead horse?

 

Date:	20-Jul-2000 13:24:11
From:	Bryan Hopper
	Yeah i think kenny g's music is bad, really bad. kenny g is in it to make money, hey what is a better way to make money than to make fun of a star and put your name in front of the public, way to go pat, free publicity, hope it boosts your album sales. as for pat "defending" jazz, i thought the music was supposed to speak for itself. don't be bitter guys and gals, wheres the love?

 

Date:	20-Jul-2000 15:05:13
From:	robert lettau (blettau@aol.com)
	i like what David R. Adler wrote: <> commercialism is such a powerful influence, and something that metheny hasn't sold out to. his musical conscience hasn't been dulled either. yet, the negativity from metheny seems less insightful and more out of frustration. at least he can still enjoy his musical freedom and professional integrity. :)

 

Date:	20-Jul-2000 19:45:47
From:	Dave Bartholome
	Got to this discussion kind of late. Like the majority of the folks making comments, I despise the music of KG, and like most of the music of Pat M. But I must say I was a little disappointed at Pat's way of expressing himself. He should have made a briefer, better thought out, more charitable statement. Something like this: "In the past, KG has defended his music by saying, 'Hey, I never claimed to be a jazz artist.' Well, I agree Mr. G. So what are you doing with this tribute to Louie Armstrong? You can't do him justice, and you just make yourself look stupid. Only a serious jazz artist, well-acquainted with the music of Mr. Armstrong, has any business doing a tribute to him."

 

Date:	21-Jul-2000 07:40:54
From:	Michael Hillman (rnrstew@hotmail.com)
	It's not even a matter of whether or not Kenny G sucks. A serious artist in any field would not touch the work of another artist in his or her field the way that Kenny G did. Of course it is his right to do a tribute to Armstrong, but only if that means covering his tunes as opposed to COVERING OVER THEM. To desecrate Armstrong's music in the manner that he did is reprehensible. Clearly that is what Metheny objected to, was and he is well within his rights in expressing his opinion.

 

Date:	21-Jul-2000 12:04:05
From:	jun encinas (selizabeth@skyinet.net)
	I can't believe that I just bought Kenny's CD. I never liked him before. I aggree with Pat but Kenny's music just clicks for others. Not everybody likes your music Pat!

 

Date:	22-Jul-2000 00:09:45
From:	Sam Adams (sadams@net-link.net)
	I don't think these musicians should be carrying on against each other like this. It's like one of those lame daytime tv talk shows or something. While Pat's done some nice work, (especially with Charlie Haden in Beyond the Missouri Sky), there's a bit of real commercial stuff in his discography as well. He should hold his tongue next time.

 

Date:	22-Jul-2000 09:15:04
From:	Bregt (Bregt@inwoner.leuven.be)
	I haven't heard the Armstrong-adaptation yet, but all the Kenny G tunes I've heared sofar really sucked. However, I don't see why Armstrong should be seen as an untouchable saint. If Kenny G wants to use Armstrong's voice, let him. His music won't get any better by doing so. By the way, everybody is doing this nowadays: see e.g. how the recorded voices of John Lennon, Freddy Mercury or Bob Marley have been used in new instrumentalisations. I don't like any of those songs, but I don't see why we should forbit these experiments. I'd rather say: keep on experimenting, maybe once something good will come of of it.

 

Date:	22-Jul-2000 23:42:17
From:	Terence
	Pat Metheny was right on the money when he criticized Kenny G for his lack of technique on the saxophone. Mr. G is nothing but a media creation in order to strike down all of the true masters of jazz. There are many people who are not familiar with jazz who believe that Kenny G is the greatest saxophonist who ever lived. If we never teach the public about the true history of jazz, then how are we ever going to keep the music alive! I hate the whole "smooth jazz" phenomenon. It is a damn shame that people like Dave Koz, Boney James, Keiko Matsui, Maysa, etc. can sell millions of records, while guys who spent hours at their craft have to get a second job to make a living. It's a reflection of our society as a whole. America doesn't care about the arts, just how much money can you produce? It's that type of thinking as to why a Kenny G popped up on the scene. RIGHT ON PAT!

 

Date:	23-Jul-2000 17:51:43
From:	hand of fate
	Let's not be too hard on Kenny G, because he is merely out there trying to make a buck--and he is making plenty of them! Deep down, he knows that he is gutless, but he probably doesn't care when he is driving home to his mansion in his Ferrari. I'm not sure I would either if I were him. The real problem with "smooth jazz" (or Muzak "unjustifiably elevated to Mozart") is that it appeals to an aging baby boomer public who have spent tons of money on this crap, and therefore it has disfigured the channels (i.e record companies, radio stations, and other media in general) through which jazz reaches the public. It has saturated the market to the point where real musicians like Matheney have become defensive because they see their authority as musicians that have access to the market as becoming weaker, as the world becomes dominated by Kenny G types. Many "smooth jazz" fans these days, when they think of great Jazz, think of Kenny G or John Tesh or the like...and it is true sign of cultural ignorance that has become pervasive over the last 20 years. But we must remember that mainstream culture has valued the "middle of the road" crap for years now, so it shouldn't suprise anybody. After all, we are a culture who also loves Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey. Sickening. I'm going to listen to Peter Brotzmann's "Machine Gun" and pretend that Kenny G'is REALLY close to Brotzmann's sax, and that his head explodes upon Brotzmann's first thunderous note.

 

Date:	24-Jul-2000 20:44:12
From:	A Real Jazz Sax Player (riffs@home.com)
	(note: I'm a known recording alto sax player).. Well maybe Pat went a bit too far in his choice of words, But he's Absolutely Right. Kenny G is a wimpy pop garbage player and I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell fans who ask me "what do you think of Kenny G" that he sucks. He's not a real jazz player. He's a plastic muzac player. And to have him overdub on a classic like Louis A. is indeed defiling the classy jazz that we all value so much. Kenny G. is a lowlife scumbag who has no right to steal LA's music and Muzac crap all over it. He's like the rappers that sample early motown tracks, but worse. Because he's crapping on our classiest music. Kenny G, get a life and get some class, if you call yourself a horn player. God I hope he doesnt try to defile bird or trane next.

 

Date:	24-Jul-2000 22:06:43
From:	Sammy H (slammyapple@yahoo.com)
	LOL, hand of fate. And just to flog the horse one more time, Right on, Pat! But, Mr. Metheny, you are personally responsible for making too many people think far too much about Kenny G. Most people interested in creative music, jazz or otherwise, stopped listening to him about 10 seconds after they first heard him… It seems like some of the people defending (or apologizing for) Kenny G see his success as some sort of triumph of democracy, whereas anyone who recognizes it as the utter crap that it is must somehow be an elitist or a ‘jazz snob’. And they further make the dubious claim that G represents for many listeners a pathway into jazz. Unfortunately, he’s just proof positive that some people will buy anything, and as long as there are bloated record executives desperate to shine a turd, and audiences mesmerized by shit, nothing will change. It’s not about whether such-and-such is or isn’t jazz – who cares? – it’s about having some shred of freaking integrity, which in our current entertainment-obsessed culture seems to count less and less, to the point that selling out has become a badge of honor. So it’s about time someone of Metheny’s stature stepped up and spoke what many people know already – the difference is that Metheny is himself one of the most successful jazz artists of the last few decades, and while he has obviously sought to reach listeners beyond the typical jazz audience, he has never placed himself above the legacy from which he comes, and rather than exploit icons of the past, he has collaborated with them. No doubt, anyone who saw the Song X tour with Ornette Coleman will never forget it. Metheny may sell a lot of records, but it’s obvious he lives to play music, not vice-versa. Musical pablum has been around as long as records have been made, and Kenny G can be proud to be part of this hallowed tradition. And it’s not entirely his fault that some people call it jazz. (Try playing a 9 chord to a rocknroller.) As A.C. Jobim once said, Americans call everything jazz. So if Kenny and his fans want the word, let them have it – it’s a useless word. In 1986, I went to see Miles Davis play at an outdoor venue outside Boston. The opening act was Spyro Gyra, forefathers of the Kenny G phenomenon. Apparently the promoter had the idea that it made for a good double bill, since by then Miles was playing tunes by Cindy Lauper and Michael Jackson. Our seats were way in the back, practically on the lawn behind the seats, which was disappointing since it was the first chance I’d had to see Miles in concert. I don’t remember much of Spyro Gyra. But I do remember the sight of dozens of people standing up and walking out before Miles had finished his first tune. I spent the rest of the concert in the first row, watching Miles pilot his band through some of the coolest music I’d ever heard. I’ll always be thankful to all those smooth jazz fans for such a great experience.

 

Date:	25-Jul-2000 13:27:00
From:	John Wilson
	Kenny G sucks. Metheny is an average Jazz guitarist in USA. He himself put out a lot of chorus laden, whimped out and disjointed, fragmented lines over an underpinning of bubble gum, in the past. How do you think he got this far? Yawn...

 

Date:	25-Jul-2000 17:29:50
From:	bjean duvall
	To most jazz fans, Kenny G isn't even on their radar. He's relegated to the 'fingernails on blackboard' category of elevator music. While dinning in NY last year, I asked the matre'd to turn off the Kenny G background music or I'd have to dine elsewhere. He graciously acquiesced and received a round of applause from the other diners. That about says it all -- anyone with any jazz sensibilities wouldn't listen to or buy his album anyway.

 

Date:	25-Jul-2000 21:00:49
From:	Cheryl Bellucci
	Personally, I don't think much of either Pat Metheny or Kenny G.--to label them "jazz musicians" is a joke!! If you want to discuss real jazz musicians, let's talk about Tony Purrone on guitar and Sonny Rollins on saxophone, not some mediocre muzak "jazz" wannabes who make too much money playing crap and then whining about someone else playing the same crap! I'd like to see Pat & Kenny do a duet and try to come up to the level of Tony Purrone and Jimmmy Heath. Good luck!!! All you jazz lovers go out and spend your hard earned money on some real jazz music. Never hear surf music, again!

 

Date:	25-Jul-2000 23:45:14
From:	Jimmy
	Cheryl, Pat Metheny toured with Sonny Rollins and made a record with the Heath Brothers. http://allmusic.com/cg/x.dll?p=amg&sql=A421841

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 01:10:28
From:	cheryl
	Jimmy, where have you been all your life? In Fantasyland? You know that shit is just economics & politics-not anything related to compatability or true musical vision.You know, put a commercial one next to a one who doesn't sell that much to try to boost the latter. I heard both those examples you mentioned!!! SAD PAIRINGS!!! Demonstrable Fact. Next, we'll have Pat Methane-y & Kenny Garlic make a duo CD & all the nasties involved will make an even bigger fortune-and,laugh all the way to the bank.But what of the true heroes? What of the people I previously mentioned??? Wait & See!! You'll thank me!!!!! Peace & Love

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 01:58:03
From:	Jimmy
	OK, Cheryl. Thanks. All Praise indeed to Heaths and Sonny Rollins. And Sonny Stitt, Sonny Fortune, Philly Joe, Mr. P.C., Dolphy, Slam, Blanton, Ware, Hawes, LaFaro, Gomez, Motian, Mr. & Mrs. Bley, Swallow, Haynes, Kirk, Hill, Cyrille, Wheeler, Werner, Rivers, Braxton, Valdes, Perez, Palmieris, Pascoal, Gismonti, Cherry, and Brownie... Get off your horse and check some of them out. Take it easy. Peace & Love. (In other words, talent and fame sleep in separate beds.)

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 17:24:30
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	Cheryl, I suggest you check out Pat's latest albums-the trio with Larry Grenadier & Bill Stewart and the duo album with Jim Hall. I think you'll be pleasantly suprised.

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 17:35:55
From:	s.nadir/algeria (peartch@yahoo.fr)
	listen to LAST TRAIN HOME and listen to one of KG album... great diffrence? GOD bless pat metheny

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 21:02:39
From:	Scott
	Yes Kenny G sucks shit

 

Date:	26-Jul-2000 23:19:54
From:	Jim Green (jimgreen@mail.com)
	Frank Zappa said it best: "Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar".

 

Date:	27-Jul-2000 13:01:33
From:	Oswing (oswing@teleline.es)
	I don't need to read anybody's opinion. I consider KennyG music (if we can use this word) as owful. It reminds me .. hmmm a bauty parlor or a dentist waiting-room. I have a weekly radio program in my country and KennyG is in my black list(as some others).

 

Date:	27-Jul-2000 13:13:38
From:	franco (topporo@libero.it)
	pat metheny ha perfettamente ragione, non fossaltro perchè i grandi come Armstrong vanno comunque trattati con il dovuto rispetto, ma anche perchè kenny G. così ha solo dimostrato di avere poche idee e poco talento. ciao franco

 

Date:	28-Jul-2000 09:34:59
From:	David Sac
	I think Kenny G is absolutely abhorring and I've had a disdain for his muzak since the very day I've heard as a child. Kenny G defaced a work by the great Louis Armstrong in a similar way that someone can draw a mustache on Mona Lisa, or that someone may deface a religious statue. Louis' music, like all great art, is often deified by the people who admire it, particularly other artists. Pat is defending one of his own. He is offended by Kenny's insincerity, I agree with him. But, did he go too far? I wonder if Pat would also support Giuliani's push to remove art considered "religously desecrating" from a Brooklyn art museum as well...

 

Date:	28-Jul-2000 11:40:06
From:	MR RIGHT (RIGHTON@OHYEAH.COM)
	Kenny G is the baddest! Man can he play a whole lotta horn! I'll bet Louis would be honored to have him aboard! The world of music owes a great debt to the "G" man. He is the first guy that can really play his instrument, I mean REALLY play! Everybody before him was just trying to be him. I think every musician should write him a thank you note for bringing the instrumentalist to the front of the bandstand! Up until he came along all seriously good music was led by singers. Now finally we have someone that can truly tell a story through his horn! We should all be honored that we are alive the same time as Kenny, not very often do the people get to share the planet with such a talent! And by the way I've known Pat for many years, he's just ribbing you, he's the "G" man's right hand man. You think I'm kidding, they get together and jam all the time! And let me tell you, as a fly on the wall, there is nothing that compares!!! Sincerly, MR. Right

 

Date:	28-Jul-2000 14:24:44
From:	Grammy
	Kenny G should listen to Joshua Redman play Louis Armstrong. Learn from that and then take up Banjo.

 

Date:	28-Jul-2000 15:37:42
From:	George K. Hunt (gkhunt@vaxxine.com)
	Amen to Metheny. Kenny G with his cloying,saccharine style leaves me wanting to throw up.

 

Date:	30-Jul-2000 00:45:51
From:	f
	kenny g blows

 

Date:	30-Jul-2000 12:14:03
From:	maria h. (m21h@aol.com)
	I love Mr.Kenny G and will listen to him forever,no matter what he chooses to play. He's the greatest saxophonist in the world! Shame on you Mr.Metheny-you could take some lessons from Mr.G. & then you might sound half as good as him.

 

Date:	30-Jul-2000 12:26:31
From:	Lenny Goldstein (------)
	Backing up a bit, I agree with Mr. Right- right on Mr. Right!! Pat & Kenny are laughing all the way to the bank because a lot of suckers buy their cd's allowing them to live a lavish lifestyle & win awards based on sales & hype not on talent or ability. Personally,rapper Eminem is more talented & has more to say than either Metheny or Kenny & is at least honest about his contribution to the "music" world.

 

Date:	30-Jul-2000 12:36:20
From:	Andrea O.
	Hey, enough about who's better than who--how about their hair? When's the last time either one went to a hairsylist?? Time to get a haircut guys-the 70's are over. At leat invest in a comb.

 

Date:	31-Jul-2000 10:19:29
From:	roger
	The difference between Metheny´s music and Kenny G´s is evident:the first plays challenging and always stimulating music out of the trends of the market. The latter plays for large audiences of people that don´t investigate music that much and only for those people who like MUZAK. I think everyone has the right to do whatever he wants, even in musical terms, but Kenny G should understand that between him and Louis Armstrong there´s an ocean an a completely different background. In short, who likes good music doesn´t take Mr.Kenny G seriously

 

Date:	31-Jul-2000 20:59:41
From:	Woo (a.k.a. BGB)
	Say what you want about Kenny G, as Mr. Metheny certainly has, but it is important to remember one thing. Light a few candles, mix a little sparkling wine cocktail, and pop in a Kenny G disk, and getting laid is pretty much a done deal. I say bless you Kenny G, for making my sex life that much easier. Of course, if you can't get her back to your place to begin with, Kenny G doesn't really help that much. P's up, H's down.

 

Date:	01-Aug-2000 11:28:23
From:	Lev
	Improper for Pat to be making these comments about Kenny G. Personally, I can't stand Kenny G's music, so I don't subject myself to it. I also can't stand Pat's music. No doubt he's a proficient guitarist, but 90% of what he does seems like pointless noodling to me and bores me silly.

 

Date:	02-Aug-2000 06:13:13
From:	The Warden (tekx13@aol.com)
	Metheny is right, The only thing Kenny G ever does is repeatly use pentatonics and mixolydian scales in his solos, even in his older crap he would use patterns that you learn when started to improvise. Yes he's got the sales to show he can market himself to a changed public, it's a shame how many people in the new generations have been changed into listening to pop crap like britney spears and have lost out in or not wanting to even listen to a complex form of music. Perhaps one day things will change but for now, we can just watch an idiot take the stage and make millions of dollars because people just don't choose to actually find out what's good music anymore. So in the words of the teenage generation kenny G can "suck it". mad props for metheny the greatest living guitarist. words of wisdom everyone who thinks G is god why don't you check out a real sax player like The bird, Trane or Bergonzi and Brecker.

 

Date:	02-Aug-2000 06:35:53
From:	Dennis
	What a great debate this has turned out to be! Before I start I should say I am not a great lover of Kenny G's music, but I do like Pat M's stuff. My point is this: I can't understand the why everybody seems to be elevating Louis singing Wonderful World to the status of a great work of art. Let's be honest, Wonderful World was just a bland, schmaltzy pop song. Not even Louis' tremendous singing could save it from that fate. Perhaps the problem here is that KG treated the track with MORE reverence than it deserved. I've read that even Louis couldn't remember the song when it became a hit while he was touring. The question is this: Does something essentially second rate become 'good' just because an artist with a proven track record is involved? I look forward to your comments.

 

Date:	02-Aug-2000 09:18:08
From:	mark jeffrey
	I totally agree with Mr Metheny.Kenny G has repeatedly sickened me,and is a very poor excuse for a musician.More people need to stand up for quality music,and hopefully weed out the incompetent horrible musicians!

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 03:57:59
From:	richard baker
	Pat Metheny should have an early retirement.He has is know hated around the world for his blasting of Kenny G,who we all know is not anywhere musically,but did not deserve this vile attack by Pat.His only hope is a public apology,which this lame ordinary player won't do......

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 05:12:26
From:	paul giord
	plss dont confuse kenny g to pat methany.. as i agree that kenny g playing is just a good pop music.but there should be a line where pat should respect .this musician

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 09:39:13
From:	Willie
	I think both Kenny G. and Pat M. have made great contributions to the world of elevator music, they should both be commended. Who can forget Zero Tolerance for Silence, what a tremendous album. Pat should keep his remarks to himself. By making such remarks, he puts himself above Kenny in stature, and for some of us that just ain't so. Neither of them ever graces the internals of any device capable of playing music in my house. ZZzzzzzzzz

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 10:50:57
From:	Charles VARANI (cvarani@usa.net)
	I'm sure Pat has not been that diplomatic. But I must agree with every f***ing word he said. This G guy is an insult to anyone intelligence! It's too easy to do what he does. All right, I better stop talking by now! Best wishes for all of you! Pat, congraltulations for your music and your courage! Charles.

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 14:31:53
From:	David Fike (dmfike@hotmail.com)
	I'm not sure how this is even an issue. But when thinking of all the knuckleheads out there that are oblivious to what genuine honest music is, for the music's sake and not feeding the mass culture monkey, I guess I CAN understand why this is a stinker with some. There are certain facts here, and one of them is that Kenny G. has always been a sell out, and 2- His foremost goal is not to improve as a musician, or make any real contribution to music as in changing the form. Having said that, his playing over Louis' track can ONLY be someing to wince at if you care about music. He is not anywhere near the artist Louis was, and really has nothing to thank him for. He may like Louis, but if that's just the case he should just stick to *saying* he likes his music. This was a dishonest act. He got his millions not from Louis, but from his selling out to the mass culture crowd. If he wants to thank anyone thank the folks that shop Wal-Mart, MTV, and all the knuckle heads that bought into his "music" as being genuine. I do find it disgusting that he'd play over ANY jazz legend's track. Pat's comments may seem harsh to some, but that's because they've been letting the chips fall as they may, as he said, for many years and do not really understand how bad his actions really were. One could go on and on about this and gum it to death, but what's the point? If the purpose of this board is to ask my opinion if I agree with Pat.... yes I do, wholeheartedly. I clapped when I read it.

 

Date:	03-Aug-2000 18:22:47
From:	Douglas Payne (dpayne@ix.netcom.com)
	I'm sorry this whole issue is such an issue. There's really nothing to it. There will always be a Kenny G. There will always be a Pat Metheny too. Music is music...you either like it or you don't (sorry, Duke: "good music" is in the ear of the behearer). No one else has to like what you like, and no one else has to dislike what you dislike (or disdain). Ahh, the joys of provacative art. I can't claim to own any music by either party involved in the dispute, but I appreciate Pat's multi-varied music much more than I'll ever appreciate Kenny's. Then again, so what? A couple things that make me laugh about this whole thing: * Natalie Cole did it with her dad - and it sold millions. So why can't Kenny G do it with one of jazz's greatest players? * Bob Thiele, co-writer and original producer of "What A Wonderful World," was just as much of a studio technician as Kenny G is, editing older recordings with newer ones. My feeling is that, despite whatever royalties are going to Thiele's hiers for this piece, Bob probably really likes what Kenny G did. I bet even Miles I'll-edit-anything-to-death Davis probably appreciates what Kenny G did. * Do you have to understand pentatonic scales to play music? Or to listen to music? Especially a music so beautifully described by Whitney Balliet as "the sound of surprise"? Louis Armstrong probably never studied pentatonic scales in his life...and his solos continue to amaze generation after generation of listeners. Why wouldn't Kenny G want to be part of that? * Did Kenny G ever claim he played jazz? Is "What A Wonderful World," one of the corniest POP songs I've ever heard in my life, considered JAZZ just because Louis SANG it? I think jazzers think their music is sacred. But I have yet to find more than a few jazzers who can appreciate more than their own tastes in jazz styles (usually everything but what a jazz listener listens to on a regular basis is too commercial). And there are way more ways than one way to do anything...and there are a lot of ways to appreciate anything too. I'm sorry Pat Metheny - and so many others who claim to like jazz - are so offended by Kenny. I don't agree that Pat's comments were very tactful. But I don't really think that makes this whole controversy valid. Music is music...even when you don't think so.

 

Date:	04-Aug-2000 14:04:24
From:	Helen Whitehurst
	I just wanted to say, very well put David F. I know that women on average don't dig jazz, for one reason or another. But, there are many that do and I'm one of them. I don't think the person before me really read Pat's comments. He probably skimmed over them, or he wouldn't have written half of what he wrote. There's a lot of that going on I think. Skim over it, and them misquote it later.

 

Date:	04-Aug-2000 15:36:13
From:	MikeK
	For those that find PM's music too commercial or slick or like KG's, I suggest you really listen to the music. Crank it up! There's more to the construction of that music than meets the ears. Ask a musician. Part of PM's commercial success is that he is able to make great jazz, great improvisation, great musicality, more accessable without diluting the content. It's just got that extra bit of shine.

 

Date:	04-Aug-2000 22:31:49
From:	msheldon
	Too much time has been spent on this already. Get over it and get on with life.

 

Date:	07-Aug-2000 00:43:35
From:	Nickle.L (sx3240@263.net)
	What will kenny g do next step? Plan to play great trane's work????? Play great Giant Step?? Oh,Jesus!!! I pretty hate his soprano sucks plus Dukoff metal D8!

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 07:23:16
From:	Gerard
	Is the Kenny G phenomena actually in reality a bad thing? I would think that it is not unless it is somehow restricting people's choices to listen and play whatever music they wish. It often seems to be taken for granted that someone who listens to Kenny G is incapable of appreciating 'good' music. Even if this were true, I doubt that it was Kenny's circular breathing that numbed his listener's musical sensibilities. (Is there a fear amongst 'serious' Jazz musicians that the Kenny G fans are going to ban together and start burning Coltrane C.D.s?) In my experience listening to and playing music the only group of musicians who consistently put down other styles as well as there fellow musicians are Jazz musicians. 'Serious' Jazz musicians love to speak of free expression yet they also want to dictate what is good and what is bad music thus limiting their own and other's freedom of choice. It also strikes me that many Jazz musicians do not really have their own opinions but choose from a collection deemed to be Kosher by the 'serious Jazz community'.

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 13:30:05
From:	eric kennedy (erickennedy69@hotmail.com)
	I AGREE WITH PAT. THE KING OF LITE JAZZ IS PUSHED BY ARISTA TO BE THE NEW COLTRANE OR BEST EVER BECAUSE WE ARE TOLD SO. BUT HONESTLY, I AM ALSO NOT A METHENY FAN. HE HAS COMPOSED SOME NICE MUSIC, BUT HIS SHIT IS JUST AS WEAK. HE IS PUSHED IN THE JAZZ WORLD JUST AS MUCH AS KENNY G. ALL OF YOU GUITAR FANS SHOULD LISTEN TO KENNY BURRELL'S GUITAR FORMS TO HEAR A MASTER COVER ALL THE STYLES WITH AUTHENTICITY. LET US BE HONEST WITH ONE ANOTHER. OUR GREAT MASTERS OF THIS ART FORM ARE BEING IGNORED WHILE CORPORATE AMERICA TELLS YOU WHO IS GREAT. DO THE HISTORY AND WAKE THE FUCK UP!ACKNOWLEDGE THIS MUSIC AND ITS CREATORS AND LIGHTBEARERS; NOT THE COMMERCIAL.

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 13:33:57
From:	eric kennedy (erickennedy69@hotmail.com)
	I AGREE WITH PAT. THE KING OF LITE JAZZ IS PUSHED BY ARISTA TO BE THE NEW COLTRANE OR BEST EVER BECAUSE WE ARE TOLD SO. BUT HONESTLY, I AM ALSO NOT A METHENY FAN. HE HAS COMPOSED SOME NICE MUSIC, BUT HIS SHIT IS JUST AS WEAK. HE IS PUSHED IN THE JAZZ WORLD JUST AS MUCH AS KENNY G. ALL OF YOU GUITAR FANS SHOULD LISTEN TO KENNY BURRELL'S GUITAR FORMS TO HEAR A MASTER COVER ALL THE STYLES WITH AUTHENTICITY. LET US BE HONEST WITH ONE ANOTHER. OUR GREAT MASTERS OF THIS ART FORM ARE BEING IGNORED WHILE CORPORATE AMERICA TELLS YOU WHO IS GREAT. DO THE HISTORY AND WAKE THE FUCK UP! ACKNOWLEDGE THIS MUSIC AND ITS CREATORS AND LIGHTBEARERS; NOT THE COMMERCIAL.

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 17:49:07
From:	Max (aikon@hotpop.com)
	Finally! For years i have dreaded the awful, stale, "commercial" muzak of Kenny G. The thought of Kenny G. comparing himself to Louis Armstrong is revolting. It disgusts me that the jazz community stands idely by while the press is indignifying Mr. Methany and his comments. Kenny G. is not jazz and i would protest his music being classified in anything genre other than easy listening. Way to go Metheny!

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 21:09:27
From:	Jacob (bob@nasa.com)
	i agree whole heartedly with pat metheny in the fact that kenny g's desecration of Louis armstrongs' grave is vile and disgusting. the only thing that should be done to Louis' music is restoration. And now, the personal comments: To michael parsons: i would expect much more intelligence of someone as ancient as you. I, a 15 year old have enough sense not to give in to the mindless dreck that groinlick spews from his rechid tin pipe. I have been studying jazz for three years and i've never seen anything as disgusting as kenny g's horrible excuse for music. To RON: what the hell were you thinking? pat may not play the definition of jazz, but aty least he knows his own. The fact that you could spill your dreck over the debate page F I V E times shocks and amazes me. ...i'm not kidding, i've lost sleep over how anybody could be so stupid!. To richard barker: f**k you i think max said it best - kenny g belongs IN THE ELEVATOR AND IN THE ELEVATOR HE SHALL STAY.

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 21:17:15
From:	Tang
	Kenny G's music is the Special Education of Jazz. To expect his fans to understand much is to be very unrealistic - however nice or interesting they may be as people.

 

Date:	08-Aug-2000 23:33:06
From:	Sal Maxio
	Now, granted Kenny G knows as much about jazz as a fire hydrant but Pat Metheney is certainly not one of the immortals. He's no Charlie Christian, Jimmy Raney, Chuck Wayne, Tal Farlow, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Gene Bertoncini, Bill Frisell etc. etc. He has benefited from some of the same energy/forces that have kept Kenny G aloft for all these years. Pat does play jazz, but sort of jazz-lite to my ears.

 

Date:	09-Aug-2000 11:22:53
From:	Get a Clue
	To those slagging Metheny for whatever reason, go read the interview (by Jason West) with Michael Brecker elsewhere on this site. (Does he need an introduction? He should know what he's talking about, right?) This is what he has to say: *** MB: I welcome any opportunity I can ever possibly get to play with Pat Metheny. He’s, you know, probably my favorite musician playing right now. I can’t say enough about him; I love his playing. Obviously, I love his sound, and his conception, I think, really transcends the instrument. He’s an artist in every sense of the word, and, as you said, a fantastic composer. *** You heard the man. Give it up.

 

Date:	09-Aug-2000 14:25:07
From:	Ben (carlshowalter@hotmail.com)
	Without a doubt, the opinion of Pat Metheny's is of the utmost truth, said in it's most blatantly obvious and truthful form. There's no question that the bile that has spewed from Kenny G should be placed in the Muzzak bin, CD's under a dollar, free giveaways by pharmaceutical companies etc. The raping of the beauty, produced by years of ingenuity and originality that the Jazz greats have given us, is a crime that needs to be acknowledged. That he can guiltessly taint something previously so pure and get away with it, be supported by the many people who buy his CD's, of which there is no ingenuity and originality, just poor mimicry of the painstaking works of others, degrades music to an art form without standards. This is unacceptable. In short, Kenny G can go fuck himself.

 

Date:	09-Aug-2000 18:10:12
From:	Jon
	Technically, would that be incest?

 

Date:	10-Aug-2000 14:50:50
From:	Ken
	Any of those who don't think that Pat Metheny is one of the great jazz guitarists up there with Charlie Christian, George Benson, and even Wes Montgomery fail to understand the breadth of his recorded work. Musically he is about as good as it gets in terms of playing. Much of his work is admittedly not necessarily straightahead jazz, but neither is George Benson's. That doesn't negate the impact he's had on the music. (Check out the magnificent Coltrane disc he did with Kenny Garrett, "Pursuance".) Part of Metheny's problem is that he's recorded so much eclectic material that few people really have a grasp on his total musical character. Musicians, however (Michael Brecker not being the least of them), know that Pat Metheny is brilliant. You might not agree with everything that puts out but it's hard to deny his ability or his place among the great jazz guitarists.

 

Date:	10-Aug-2000 17:56:42
From:	Hal
	Brecker, Metheny, and Benson - good players, not much depth.

 

Date:	10-Aug-2000 18:35:46
From:	CJ
	Kenny G is pathetic, everytime his "sound" hits the airwaves it makes feel like someone should draw me up a bubble bath! Pat's comments are right on! I do have a question however, I've got a tremendous amount of Pat Metheny music, but, what the hell happened on "Zero Tolerance for Silence"? I'm no musician but that CD is intolerable!!!! Was it a sarcastic rip at the grunge/metal heads?

 

Date:	10-Aug-2000 18:46:58
From:	On Glue
	Christ.

 

Date:	10-Aug-2000 21:57:24
From:	alan
	Perhaps this whole controversy is a slick ploy to manuever Pat Metheny and Kenny G into recording a CD together! All this publicity for free!! Pat Metheny and Kenny G record the music of Louie Armstrong?

 

Date:	11-Aug-2000 09:33:37
From:	Samuel Claiborne
	I think Pat went a little over the top, but he indeed said exactly what many of us think. perhaps a little tact would have helped. The most galling thing about kenny G, for me, is not his excreble pap that he calls music. I have always hated it. It is the antithesis of passion and creativity that is the hallmark of all good art. However, it is his conceit, his megalomania, his immense ego that galls me most. I would never have the chutzpah, the temerity to overdub myself with one of the masters. The boy's WAY to big for his britches. Ironic: He thinks he is 'all that', many of us think his 'music' is a waste of breath. Pat has integrity. Kenny G is a pop whore. Nuff said. Pax...

 

Date:	12-Aug-2000 05:14:00
From:	Paul
	I have always loved Pat's music (most of it anyway - he has "strayed" a couple of times himself). He has always been one of my favorite composers and musicians. He is a brilliant musician in just about every since of the word and also very intense. But, you can't force art and culture on people. Music is supposed to be fun and enjoyable (like art) and it comes in many forms. I haven't particularly liked Kenny G's music, but believe it or not, I thought Songbird was a very well-written and produced enjoyable song for what it's intention was. It's not INTENSE. I can't listen only to intense music all the time. Hell I even enjoy Christine Aguilera!! As far as Kenny G not being a good musician - that's just not true. I saw him play at ChicagoFest with Jeff Lorber back in '81 and he was slammin' as was the whole band. That was at the end of the peak of JLF - he attacked that instrument on those tunes man. As far as some of these posts where people are talking about how "better" musicians are making less money, I hope to God that's not the reason any of us play jazz - to make money - COME ON NOW! There is no "fair" when it comes to money - you know that. One other point - sometimes people hate most what they are afraid of becoming. Otherwise, live and let live - and don't wrap a guitar around anyone's head. Violence makes this whole party a bummer...

 

Date:	12-Aug-2000 08:44:00
From:	Sal
	That's good - maybe Metheny has a fear of becoming like Kenny G - the pull of the bucks is seductively appealing to his lesser self and Pat's conducting his own psychic battle in public. If he slides into the land of schlock permanently (he has visited) it would be more difficult to do so having publically denounced the King Of Schlock - Kenny G. Kenny G now becomes Darth Vader who preys on the noble dead, Louie Armstrong. Oh, I like that. Pat, may the FORCE be with you!! Stay Tuned!!!

 

Date:	12-Aug-2000 11:49:42
From:	Kathy
	The drama of it all!! Ohhhh.................

 

Date:	13-Aug-2000 01:09:51
From:	Richard Baker
	The Pat Metheny Groupies have got to be the biggest dumbo's In the history of the music business.Don't they know this publicity stunt by the fading Pat Metheny was trying to get him in the spotlight,because his cd sales were dropping way down and as his public appearances also dropped dramatically.It didn't work. His vile essay has made him the putz of the universe.Wake up groupies,you've been taken.....

 

Date:	13-Aug-2000 09:17:40
From:	Zippy
	Hey, Pat has recently recorded with Charlie Haden, Jim Hall, Joshua Redman, and has a recording coming out with Dave Holland and Jackie Dejohnette. So, Pat's doing alright at least in the artistic realm - OK so he's not in those guys league, sort of the junior member on the recordings, but it's good for real good musicians to have exposure via Metheny and good for Metheny to be associated with good musicians. Works both ways. You know Concord Records has a great duet series going - perhaps they could make an offer to Metheny & Kenny: "Pat & Kenny Play the Music of Louie Armstrong: Live from Disneyland Park." Or rather "Kenny G and Pat Metheny: Live from Disneyland." Something like that.

 

Date:	14-Aug-2000 01:53:48
From:	Sharon
	I also saw Kenny G at the Chicagofest in '81 playing with JLF. It was an awesome display of technique, improvisation, and pure musical bliss. Once Kenny G went out on his own to cultivate a sound for the masses, I was saddened by how he underplayed. I love Metheny and perhaps his comments reflect undeniable anger toward an equally talented jazz musician who would cross-over into pop. In essence, Kenny sold his soul. This is unacceptable to Metheny who probably had respected Kenny in the past. And, he may be jealous of his popularity and high-selling albums. Anyway, though I don't like what Kenny G has done with his awesome talent, he nonetheless has cultivated interest among a crowd of some, to investigate, hopefully, the highly spiritual and complicated world of jazz music. I am disheartend by Metheny's severe and unrefined attack on Kenny G. As perhaps Kenny G lost credibility and respect among his peers by becoming a "souled-out" jazz musician, Metheny degraded the respectable image of a fine jazz musician (himself) by offering a poorly worded, bullified message which quite obviously doesn't match the intelligent eloquence of jazz music.

 

Date:	14-Aug-2000 13:57:07
From:	Graham
	I don't like KG but its a free choice, and what entertains. Pat M's ok, but who's sold the most records?. I think KG's up to about 300 million - quite popular eh?

 

Date:	15-Aug-2000 19:31:14
From:	Dan V. (EauClaire@Hotmail.com)
	Pat Metheny has been one of the most consistently creative and important musicians of the past 25 years. From Bright Size Life on he has shown an ability to transform jazz while transcending it to something that goes beyond category - as Charlie Haden so aptly put it on the note to the recent classic recording Beyond the Missouri Sky - something like contemporary americana. He is easily a more important figure on his instrument at this point than anyone since Wes Montgomery and he proves it again and again on each new release. John Mclaughlin and John Scofield would be the only other two to begin to compare to his impact and influence, and while both of them are excellent players, neither has begun to have the impact that Metheny has had either on the public at large or the musical community. Metheny's importance as a composer cannot be undervalued either, since his tunes are starting to show up all over the place now and become the closest thing any jazz composer of his generation has come to writing "new standards", from Roy Hargrove to Roy Haynes just in the past few months. There will doubtless be many more in the future as his Songbook is now out and we can all finally figure out what the hell is going on with those so deceptively simple sounding inversions that aren't simple at all if you try to figure them out! And since I work in a record store, I can assure any doubters that Metheny is just about the only "real" jazz artists that still sells any serious numbers of records - his most recent records over the past few years have all been "#1" in the store for weeks or months after they came out; Trio 99/00, Pat Metheny and Jim Hall, Like Minds (w.Gary Burton), Map of the World, and Imaginary Day. His records seem to be selling better than ever and from what the Warner rep says he sells more overseas than here - the guy said that Trio 99/00 was almost 300,000 worldwide already. The average Wynton Marsalis record does not even reach 25,000 anymore, for instance. All this is said for the benefit of the people here who are so apparently deaf to the music itself - how could ANYONE confuse Metheny's music with anything "smooth"? Even the PMG stuff has a depth that is obvious to even untrained listeners. As far as what he said about the G, don't forget, he said it to what he thought were the few people that visit his own personal site, the fact that everyone else wanted to copy and paste it all over the world says more about the people doing the cutting and pasting than anything. Someone asked him a question and he gave his opinion and has not had anything more to say about it since while the world has gone nuts over this! My opinion? He was right on the money!!!

 

Date:	15-Aug-2000 20:35:45
From:	Francine Eisner-Steig (mrsjsteig@yahoo.com)
	The real problem is not that Kenny G is musically insipid, or that he smiles out of the side of his mouth while playing, or that his interpretation of a great musician's work is not up to snuff. There have always been musical lightweights. When I was a teenager, there were so-called "Bubble Gum Groups" like the Cowsill, the Archies, and the Osmonds, and everyone knew who they were. There was an audience for them: Yeah, your 11-year old sister or your 67-year old aunt from a small town in Ohio, who never had any taste. The problem is NOT Kenny G...it is that it is impossible for most great musicians, especially in the jazz genre, to get decent record deals or even decent gigs. Oh, yes, there are a handful who can, but not many. I know of quite a few people in this category. Now, Pat has the CLOUT to say something negative and not have it affect his career. Keith Jarrett made a similar statement.(I think it was about 10 years ago.) THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE MUSIC BUSINESS HAS CHANGED SO THAT IT LIMITS OR EVEN ELIMINATES THE PUBLIC'S ACCESS TO GREAT MUSIC. Music has become the worst type of showbiz. For example, does anyone really think Madonna or Christina Aguilera or Mariah Carey are great musicians? The package is the thing now, with dancing and special effects. Great backup musicians are hired to help flesh it all out. When I was a kid, things like this went on in Las Vegas, and no one took it seriously. Oh, yes, there was always some "showbiz" involved. Take, for example, the case of Elvis Presley, who even I can't find fault with in his musical interpretations.(Mostly) But somewhere down the line, the music BUSINESS ruined everything. How? By eliminating from their roster of artists anyone who doesn't sell a million records. And let's face it, there have always been people, OK, MOST people are like this, who buy whatever is most highly recommended by media, or most vigorously promoted.I could say lots, lots more on the subject. I'm personally glad that Pat has a great career going. I love his playing and his tunes...but the current industry emphasis on BIG, BIG BUCKS as opposed to quality has ruined everything for those who have good taste in music. Fran Eisner-Steig (Mrs Jeremy Steig)

 

Date:	16-Aug-2000 09:51:23
From:	james jones
	I agree completely with Pat's assessment of Kenny. However, live and let live. Everyone knows the deal on Kenny and his syrupy "pseudo jazz". There's no need to attack Kenny personally. JJ

 

Date:	16-Aug-2000 14:07:27
From:	Ken Wibecan (mistro817@aol.com)
	In the good old days of jazz, musicians earned their places in the jazz heirarchy by getting up on the stage with other jazz musicians in "cutting contests." You played your best, and if it wasn't good enough you got chased off the stage all the way back to the woodshed with your tail between your legs. Kenny G never would have survived such competition--and he knows it. That's why he used technological trickery to get to play with the best. Louie would have wiped up the stage with Kenny G. Pat Metheny was right on the money.

 

Date:	17-Aug-2000 03:46:33
From:	Ercan (ercan_y@lycos.com)
	If this guy can sleep comfortably there is nothing can be done. And you can be sure that a duet with Parker and/or Coltrane is on the way. Another project can be blowing one of the ballads when Chet sings. In my country, when there is a funeral or a wedding, some people appear who are not known to anyone. They are just there to eat free; since people are very busy, sad, etc. and it is very crowded, no one notice them. They eat, drink, even dance to have fun. I think Kenny is a guy of this sort. Onemore point: If you know how to make love, you don't bother to scratch it to find the G-point. Thanks Pat! It's good to hear that someone speaks to defend the creativity.

 

Date:	17-Aug-2000 03:55:41
From:	Ercan (ercan_y@lycos.com)
	If this guy can sleep comfortably there is nothing can be done. And you can be sure that a duet with Parker and/or Coltrane is on the way. Another project can be blowing one of the ballads when Chet sings. In my country, when there is a funeral or a wedding, some people appear who are not known to anyone. They are just there to eat free; since people are very busy, sad, etc. and it is very crowded, no one notice them. They eat, drink, even dance to have fun. I think Kenny is a guy of this sort. Onemore point: If you know how to make love, you don't bother to scratch it to find the G-point. Thanks Pat! It's good to hear that someone speaks to defend the creativity.

 

Date:	17-Aug-2000 04:02:44
From:	Ercan (ercan_y@lycos.com)
	If this guy can sleep comfortably there is nothing can be done. And you can be sure that a duet with Parker and/or Coltrane is on the way. Another project can be blowing one of the ballads when Chet sings. In my country, when there is a funeral or a wedding, some people appear who are not known to anyone. They are just there to eat free; since people are very busy, sad, etc. and it is very crowded, no one notice them. They eat, drink, even dance to have fun. I think Kenny is a guy of this sort. Onemore point: If you know how to make love, you don't bother to scratch it to find the G-point. Thanks Pat! It's good to hear that someone speaks to defend the creativity.

 

Date:	17-Aug-2000 17:56:30
From:	The Idiot Identifier
	Man you guys are idiots...STRAIGHT UP IDIOTS! Pat sounds like an extremely bitter 12 year old gone wrong! Let alone everyone else with their remarks of "OO PLAY LIKE COLTRANE..." etc..etc... Don't take yourself too serious. Obviously Pat is looking to grow as a musician and to push his limits that should have been pretty clear to all of you. Now Kenny G just seems to be taking the easy way out...going straight for the elevator music. So stop taking yourselves so serious! You guys sound so childish saying "How DARE HE PLAY OVER LOUIS ARMSTRONG!?" BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL! The poor guy never said that he was anywhere near him as far as being a musician.....anyways shouldn't music be all about enjoyment....so all of you lighten up, even Pat, and get those sticks out of your ass..you should get some surgery done for that as well...but we all still know Kenny G blows.

 

Date:	17-Aug-2000 21:11:55
From:	Andreas
	Basie Swings, Michael Bolton Sings!

 

Date:	18-Aug-2000 14:06:24
From:	Andreas
	A review of Kenny G's Greatest(?) Hits from a fan on Amazon.com: "The Best CD EVER!, Reviewer: from Colorado Springs, CO This is the best cd ever! This is a very relaxing cd. I am a preschool teacher at a child care center and I use this cd a lot during nap time. The kids go right to sleep. We also use it during quiet periods that we have throughout the day. It really helps to keep the children calm. I definatly give it 5 stars!" Need I say anything? This isn't jazz. It's musical Sominex!

 

Date:	19-Aug-2000 10:14:44
From:	Dawn
	I'd like to respond to Woo...aka BGB. The best that you can ever get from me by playing a Kenny G disk is a blow job. I've never given it up for Kenny G, and women who do are worthless sluts.

 

Date:	19-Aug-2000 10:17:01
From:	Woo (aka BGB)
	This is for Dawn. If I throw on a Kenny G disk, you know I be about 5 minutes away from scorin' anal. Don't give me that bull shit. You want it right now...don't you...don't you!

 

Date:	19-Aug-2000 10:18:59
From:	Dawn
	BGB, Woo, whatever. even IF you did get it, you probably couldnt last 5 minutes.

 

Date:	19-Aug-2000 10:20:04
From:	Woo...BGB
	Whatever cunt.

 

Date:	20-Aug-2000 03:42:37
From:	Nora Galvin (ElianoraX3@aol.com)
	I suppose if Kenny G were playing at the local Holiday Inn, Pat Metheny would not have bothered with him. Pathetic bleatings aside, Kenny G is not a harmless mellow creature. He's rich, powerful, riding the crest of America's wave of bad taste (created by the fame machine/music industry with its deathgrip on the airwaves and distribution), and therefore helping to destroy popular music. While I was told never to criticize anyone's taste in music since it comes from their soul, some people must have Cheez Whiz for ectoplasm! They need to be told! Maybe PM went a little overboard. Oh well. Artists feel passionately about such things. If KG is an artist, pointing out how cloddish he's being is doing him a service. It will help him form some artistic sensibility. (When I played badly, my teacher would point to a D.S. al Fine and say, "That's you: Dumb Shit to the end!" Somehow I learned from this.) I can understand how anyone might play along with an old recording for a thrill. But publish it? no. Louis Armstrong is dead. No one asked his permission. He had no choice. His work is immortal and should not be messed with. Music is such an ephemeral thing people think copyrights mean nothing. You can't see anyone playing on a recording, therefore copying is fair game. Is it somehow more ethical because you bought the permission from the current copyright holder (not the artist)? It may be legal, but no, it's not ethical. PS: if Natalie Cole is so fabulous, why didn't she make it on her own? I respect "musical nobodies" more for honestly producing their own work even if they never h

 

Date:	20-Aug-2000 07:44:31
From:	mo
	Nora dear, don't diss Natalie; she's had a long (25years+) career. So what if she used her dad's recordings to rejuvenate her career? If you don't believe me check out her live album from the mid-70's. Like others have said, she's the real deal and has the R&B hits to prove it. And I happen to agree with Pat, though I will admit to owning a KG album or 2; cover bands gotta work! Personally, I prefer the older Kenny G stuff---when he was "Gorelick" and a sideman on Jeff Lorber's albums---Wizard Island, Galaxian,etc. This was the hip shit for high school---remember this stuff was out around the same time as Mangione's "Feels So Good". And Mangione had the pedigree and the blessings of Dizzy himself. I've been gigging for 25 years and was fortunate to study real jazz with real players and able to discern "jazz" from "instrumental pop" which is what Kenny G is all about. If I'm not mistaken, I've heard that Kenny G doesn't consider himself to be a jazz musician but a pop musician, so there lies the rub. Next on the soapbox.....

 

Date:	20-Aug-2000 09:59:56
From:	Hal
	BGB/Woo & Dawn - a lovely couple.

 

Date:	22-Aug-2000 02:37:37
From:	Asanka Perera (pasanka@hotmail.com)
	Reading this debate actually made me critically LISTEN to a borrowed disc by KG ! (having philistine friends do come in handy sometimes ;-)) So here goes my two cents... (after only one painful listening session): Granted, some of Metheny's own recordings DO sound pretty mediocre. But at least they don't descend to the lower depths of the torture I just let myself endure. Leaving aside Metheny's impressive line up of co-musicians, he DOES play his instrument with dignity. And like Louis Armstrong, he has contributed much to the idiom(jazz or otherwise) with his unique sound and articulation on his chosen instrument. In contrast, other than circular-breathing stunts and cliche-filled lines I didn't "hear" anything fresh in KG's soprano sax. Duke was right; there are only two kinds of music. Life is too short to damn yourself with the wrong kind. (That includes Pop's vocal outings too)

 

Date:	22-Aug-2000 07:10:45
From:	Wilbur
	I'm a musician, been playing for over 35 yrs - guitar specifically. Regarding PM, I can recognize his talent as a player. Problem is, I find him boring as hell to listen to. One song performed by Howard Roberts provides far more entertainment to me than a whole PM album. I've tried very hard to warm up to Pat, and I just can't seem to stay awake long enough. Luckily however, I do have the ability to choose what I listen to. Nobody is forcing me to listen to Kenny G or Pat M, so whatever they're choosing to do, I could care less, _I don't have to listen to it_. I think Kenny G has a right to do his thing and make it available to the people who like such endeavors. In some aspects, Kenny G has served to introduce people to the world of jazz (I don't really consider what he does as jazz), and they then go on to discover the real jazz greats, and never listen to Kenny again. Pat has no right to single out Kenny G and launch his personal diatribe as he did. It makes him sound like a pompous ass in my opinion. I've only heard Kenny G on the radio, and it's more than enough to make me realize that I don't need any Kenny G albums in my own collection. If you don't like him, don't buy or listen to his music - it's that simple. But let the ones who do happen to like him enjoy what he offers.

 

Date:	22-Aug-2000 07:52:47
From:	mrach
	Congrats to Mr. Metheny for his courageous stand! There ARE some things that are too sacred to be defiled this way!

 

Date:	23-Aug-2000 08:34:29
From:	H. R.
	I realize the work is out of fashion, but even Dante's great work "The Inferno," in which he describes the circles of hell and those who belong there, couldn't do justice to Kenny G's depraved desecration. Will he start showing up at art museums with a spray paint can next?

 

Date:	23-Aug-2000 14:55:31
From:	Victor Acker (ackers@mediaone.net)
	If you're put off by Pat's comments, then you simply just don't get it and you never will. I've seen you on blankets at jazz festivals eating wine and cheese in your Rippington's T Shirt, blabbering through the performance. Forget about it and go back to sleep. Art is not as subjective as you might think. Some of it is honest to gosh monkey crap and it's about time somebody said so.

 

Date:	24-Aug-2000 01:40:41
From:	oman (oman@pacifier.com)
	I suppose that Pat may be selective as to what he blurbs out in the future. What Kenny is about ... it is about him. He is making money and a name for himself ... he is promoting his career and exploiting the 'smoooooth acceptance' that he has gained. He plays that 'bedroom' music that is quite frankly very popular and he is exploiting his own strengths. Let's not loose site of that. What is unfortunate, most listeners really don't listen critically and in my opinion do not understand the distinction between real jazz and pop music. That an instrument strongly associated to jazz is also used to play 'pop' music with a jazzy feel (if that some of the time). That a 'Smooth Jazz' genre has been forced on the masses, with deliberate intent towards large pecuniary gains. Whether this is intentional or not, it has frustrated support and air-time for true and authentic jazz. I do want to see jazz musicians find success, but this is about more than just money. oman

 

Date:	24-Aug-2000 05:43:57
From:	Ron Santen (santenr@iinet.net.au)
	I just came across this site and I have to agree that Metheny is spot on about Kenny G. (That wasn't meant to rhyme). Unfortunately a few months ago a friend of mine loaned me a couple of Pat Metheny CDs (namely First Circle and Secret Story) and I made almost the same comments - in a less frenzied manner - about Metheny! How dare this man desecrate the legacy of Charlie Christian and call his music jazz! So I thought about it for a while and I remembered all the crap versions of the music of Mozart and Bach (Classical Gas etc) and prints of Picasso and Dali in yuppie coffee bars...and the ongoing misuse of great art to serve tawdry commercial interests and I thought _ well there are always going to be those pricks who want to try to corrupt great art by 'popularising' it (i.e. making money out of other peoples genius,and giving the impression that you are a genius too, by association). I think it is preferable to let great art speak for itself -and educating people about it, pointing out why it is great. So what can I do - well I make it clear to my friends if they play crap like Kenny G and Pat Metheny while I am at their place I will either walk out or be bloody rude about it. If they visit my place they can expect to hear Miles, Coltrane, Louis Armstrong, Fats Waller, Mozart, Beethoven or Ali Farka Toure, Toumani Diabate but NOT Kenny G or Celine Dion and their like. Now, I don't have many friends, but my friends all have good CD collections and if they have crap - they are too ashamed to let me know that they own crap music....and isn't that how they eventually stop listening to the Kenny G's of the world. One last point Kenny G. is awful, and his pathetic and tawdry linking to Louis Armstrong was tasteless - but have you heard Michael Bolton?

 

Date:	24-Aug-2000 09:11:42
From:	reuben jackson (jacksonre@nmah.si.edu)
	Like many (most?) of your readers, Kenny G. doesn't do much (anything) for me, and not because his music is or is not jazz (I think that even the most ardent lovers of this label cling to often staid definitions of what the music can and/or should be)-but because it never reaches my heart. For that reason alone, I do what I wish folks who, say, don't like certain TV programs might consider doing, or what opponents of a woman's right to choose might consider-namely ( respectively) dont listen, or dont get one. I only heard snippets of Kenny's "Classics" collection, and while I didnt care for much of it, I give him credit for even trying some of these tunes. How many of our lionized ( pun intented)young jazzers of today push themselves beyond the head-solos-head formula ( complete with nice suits) some of us consider " the real jazz". Both put me to sleep faster than a Sominex IV. Peace

 

Date:	24-Aug-2000 09:25:54
From:	Fred Davidson
	Kenny G. plays the soprano sax. If you really want to hear what that instrument can do, listen to some Sidney Bechet. Pat Metheny plays the guitar. If you really want to hear what that instrument can do, listen to some Pat Metheny.

 

Date:	24-Aug-2000 16:22:03
From:	Lyle (lylek19@home.com)
	I would not grace the sound of Kenny G with the term 'jazz' or anything associated with 'jazz'. Pablum, maybe!

 

Date:	25-Aug-2000 09:13:35
From:	simon
	I enthusiastically second Fred's comment about Sidney Bechet. For you modernists, I'd add Steve Lacy, and Jane Ira Bloom. Don't forget Lucky Thompson and Zoot Sims both recorded wonderful soprano sax music (Thompson has a very good CD with Tommy Flanagin in which he plays a lot of soprano; "Zoot Plays Soprano" on Pablo is also recommended). Hey, Kenny G is paint by numbers stuff. There's a big world out there.

 

Date:	25-Aug-2000 15:57:33
From:	Mariam (mariamayub@hotmail.com)
	Well, I thought I would take a look and you guys are still at it. Sigh...did it every occur to any of you sometimes people like to listen to relaxing or simple music? The John Teshes, Yanni's and Kenny G's have their place in music, just like the Mariah Carey's and Celine Dion's. They make music, we decide if we want to buy it. If people aren't smart enough to appreciate something outside their realm (hey, guess what? I listen to world music like Femi Kuti and Afro Celt Sound System, so I know what it is like to follow people that noone else seems to know about and appreciate and how frustrating that can be), but I also like what I like. You can't convince me that I need something if I don't feel that I do, but you are definitely making me sure I don't want to hear all the greats you mention, because of your whiny, lame-ass, s#%t for brains attitude that reeks of stupidity and really, you guys aren't any smarter about music than anyone else. How about we go head to head on some other category? How well would you do? Wouldn't you have to start out with some greatest hits collection, and go," gee, duh, I don't know, never really listened to this music" Well, there is a Kenny G in that department for you as well. Bet you are gonna be glad you can learn in that way, but guess what? Someone might be laughing at you for not appreciating good music and being stupid, well, how likely are you going to broaden your mind after that? Idiotic elitists...hey, don't those mean the same thing?

 

Date:	25-Aug-2000 17:55:50
From:	leifmag
	IT IS ALL THE SAME TO ME, WHAT IS JAZZ? WHO IS THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER ON ANY GENRE OF MUSIC? ME, YOU, PAT, ANYBODY WHO LISTENS. THERE IS AN ABUNDANCE OF JAZZ IDEAS OUT THERE, MANY FROM EUROPE,ISRAEL,AND NUMEROUS OTHER PLACES. JUST THINK, IF BILLIONS OF PEOPLE JUST LIKED METHENY, HE WOULD BE CONSIDERED A SELLOUT POP STAR. IF HIS MUSIC WAS PLAYED OVER AND OVER IT WOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED TIRED. MUSIC IS SO LARGE THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO EVEN THINK I UNDERSTAND EVERY MODE, LEADING TONE, VOICING, OR RYTHYMIC STRUCTURE THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE PLAYED. I THINK IT IS BETTER SOMETIMES TO IGNORE A FRACAS AND THINK MORE ON THE INVOLVING THEORY OF MUSIC THAT IS PLAYED AROUND THE WORLD. JAZZ IS JUST ONE OF MANY CEREBREAL FORMS OF MUSIC. DONT DISCOUNT ANYONE LIKE THE G KID WHO PLAYS POP MUSIC, AND THEN COVERS AN OLD POP CLASSIC LIKE ITS A WONDERFUL WORLD. SO PLEASE MOVE ON TO PLAYING WHATEVER YOU PLAY WITHOUT ALL THE BANTERING, IT DOESNT DO ANYONE ANY GOOD. LOVE, BACKWOODS FUSION EXPERIMENT.

 

Date:	25-Aug-2000 18:33:07
From:	Tiki
	Perhaps Miriam needs an enema?

 

Date:	26-Aug-2000 00:31:12
From:	Matt Rubiin (xyd360@yahoo.com)
	Alright, folks. Let's get something straight. There are, in fact, fundamental musical differences between what Kenny G plays, and what most self respecting jazz musicians and listeners call "Jazz." Kenny G has a very weakly developed swing feel. He does not draw from either a blues based or bebop vocabulary. His solo's do not contain very dramatic elements of tension and release. His songs rarely employ the dissonances craved by most of the jazz community. On top of all that, he is not a master of his intrument. Some true masters of the soprano saxophone are Sidney Bechet, John Coltrane, and Wayne Shorter. Kenny G is at best a second rate jazz musician who has used catchy pop hooks and a great deal of promotion to sell millions of albums to unsuspecting customers. His decision to record himself with Louis Armstrong is offensive to Jazzers because Louis would probably never have chosen to appear with an unexciting performer of such low quality. Louis was a showman, and Kenny G makes for a truly mind numbing show. So you see why some of us jazz folks are a little bitter! Matt

 

Date:	26-Aug-2000 08:35:23
From:	Alison
	I have to disagree with Tiki. I think it is presumptuous to speak of Mariam in terms of a need for an enema. She may, I don't know, but she is an excellent example of the main issue at hand. Here is someone who is obviously bright, she writes well: she is capable of presenting an arguement and of conveying emotions in her writing. On the other hand, she likes Kenny G. Neuropsychologically it is the norm for people to be well developed in some cognitive areas and under developed in others. There are plenty of people who can make a ton of money but still have no taste when it comes to houses, movies, music, etc. Mariam's like a Learning Disabled kid who is illiterate but has very good spatial perception. Since this culture doesn't value music all that much her learning disability doesn't have a great impact on her life. Don't point that out to Mariam - because she just might get very angry (so might your rich friend who built a quarter million dollar ugly house).

 

Date:	27-Aug-2000 16:28:38
From:	Kittra
	I certainly wouldn't view it as a personal attack. I'd say that Mr. Metheny is a brave man. It takes a lot of guts to voice a negative critique of a fellow artist at the risk of alienating anyone in this industry. An industry that functions on friendships and who-you-know camaraderie. I say BRAVO. If the truth hurts, Kenny G. can wear it. If Kenny G. doesn't recognize Mr. Metheny's comments as having any merit, that's OK too, he can let it roll off of him like water off a ducks back end and laugh all the way to the bank. Please check out the Shrine to pianist Tupper Saussy at http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/rsmkjo/tupper.html

 

Date:	27-Aug-2000 17:43:25
From:	Amos
	Metheny, besides being one of the best musicians in the jazz world for the past 25 years, is also one of the most genuine about the music and its future. His concern about the legacy of Louis Armstrong in this era of "anything goes" is a reminder that there are some folks who care, who are willing to hold things to a higher standard and to insist on respect for the dignity of our most important figures that happen not to be around anymore to speak for themselves. Kenny G should be ashamed of himself and he shouldn't need Metheny or anyone else to pull his coattails on this - he should never have overdubbed himself on Louis Armstrong's record in the first place. Can you imagine the scene in the studio while this was being put together? As a huge fan of Armstrong, when I heard this on the radio it almost literally made me sick. For the folks that don't get this, that feel that Metheny is doing this as some kind of personal attack (like he doesn't have better things to do, he puts out about 4 great records a year these days), all I can say is that EVERY SINGLE musician I know supports him all the way on this.

 

Date:	28-Aug-2000 13:45:42
From:	Moe Howard
	Hmm, thought y'all might enjoy this ... Kenneth Gorelick BORN: 1959, Seattle, WA Kenny G has long been the musician many jazz listeners love to hate. A phenomenally successful instrumentalist whose recordings make the pop charts, G's sound has been a staple on adult contemporary and "smooth jazz" radio stations since the mid-1980s, making him a household name. Kenny G is a fine player with an attractive sound (influenced a bit by Grover Washington Jr.) who often caresses melodies, putting a lot of emotion into his solos. Because he does not improvise much (sticking mostly to predictable melody statements), his music largely falls outside of jazz. However because he is listed at the top of "contemporary jazz" charts and is identified with jazz in the minds of the mass public, he belongs in this book. Kenny Gorelick started playing professionally with Barry White's Love Unlimited Orchestra in 1976. He recorded with Cold, Bold & Together (a Seattle-based funk group) and freelanced locally. After graduating from the University of Washington, G worked with Jeff Lorber's Fusion, making two albums with the group. Soon he was signed to Arista, recording his debut as a leader in 1982. His fourth album, Duotones (which included the very popular "Songbird"), made him into a star. Soon he was in demand for guest appearances on recordings of such famous singers as Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston and Natalie Cole. Kenny G's own records have sold remarkably well, particularly Breathless, which has easily topped eight million copies in the U.S.; his total album sales top 30 million copies. 1994's holiday album Miracles and 1996's Moment continued the momentum of his massive commercial success. He also recorded his own version of the Celine Dion/Titanic smash "My Heart Will Go On" in 1998, but the following year he released Classics In The Key Of G, a collection of jazz standards like "Round Midnight" and "Body & Soul," possibly to reclaim some jazz credibility. Regardless, he has made the soprano sax sound appealing to millions of fans, while simultaneously annoying many jazz purists. ~ Scott Yanow, All Music Guide

 

Date:	29-Aug-2000 08:09:41
From:	Sal
	Ever the diplomat, that Scott Y. Good man. Since Kenny is associated with contemporary jazz by the mass public, he says, Kenny belongs in the book - not that the mass public would know what jazz was/is.

 

Date:	29-Aug-2000 15:48:35
From:	George (cooperdooo@webtv.net)
	I never listen to Kenny G! He repulses me. I could not have said it any better than Pat M.

 

Date:	30-Aug-2000 09:57:32
From:	Ken Dryden (kenjazz@vei.net)
	As the editor of the 2nd & 3rd editions of the All Music Guide to Jazz, Scott Yanow did a fine job. Any of us who write for AMG usually strive to keep the biographies we write factual; the reviews are for our opinions. I've known Scott for over a dozen years, he prefers to call smooth jazz instrumental pop, taking most all of it out of jazz entirely. I find it funny that JazzTimes finally got around to mentioning an excerpt of Metheny's comments about the bozo known as Kenny G; they also included an excerpt of that hilarious concert review that's been circulating on the net. They never did mention why nobody reviewed the widely condemned "Classics in the Key of G" after they printed such a puffy article following an interview with America's #! Jazz Fraud. Check out the 30th anniversary issue!

 

Date:	30-Aug-2000 11:36:07
From:	Thomas Nettleton (tbnettleton@juno.com)
	A friend of mine gave a classic remark about the music of Kenny G. several years ago. He called it "ear candy." I do not nor will I ever consider Kenny G. a jazz musician. His music lacks the vibe, the feel, the ambiance of jazz, even in a recording such as his tribute to Satchmo. I think that, minus the harsh language, Pat Metheny is dead-on correct in his assessment of Kenny G. Kenny, leave jazz to people who know it, eat it, breathe it, live it and feel it. It's obvious you are not capable of any of the above in your music.

 

Date:	31-Aug-2000 11:00:19
From:	Mike R. (mricci@allaboutjazz.com)
	Here's an excerpt from John Metric's recent The Other Paper article (from Columbus, Ohio). Enjoy! "A whole lotta people paid a whole lotta money to witness a whole lotta meaningless breathing exercises done through a musical snorkel Saturday night at the Columbus Convention Center. Kenny G--the mayor of mayonnaise music, the milquetoast maestro, the woodwind weasel--played his saxophone to roughly 5,000 people at $25 per head. That adds up to a $150,000 gross and boy, gross it was. G is the latest and most successful instrumentalist with a slight jazz pedigree to hit the big time. However, in G's case, it's with an authenticity so questionable he may as well document it with a fancy diploma from some phony offshore jazz school in the middle of the Caribbean. Even Zamphir comes with better jazz credentials.

 

Date:	31-Aug-2000 16:31:25
From:	Jon Leonoudakis (jbgreek@earthlink.net)
	I used to rag on "wave music/easy listening jazz/new age, etc." until an accomplished pro musician told me that since there are very few jazz radio stations left in this country, record sales, live dates, and WAVE radio arplay are the main sources of income for jazz musicians. Alot of jazz guys write and play the wave music because it provides the type of income that feeds families and sends kids to school. It also makes it so these folks can continue working at the "real" music (whatever that is) they may not pay enough to provide for themselves and/or their families. As far as Pat Metheny's comments are concerned, I heartily agree. The great guitarist Tommy Tedesco once said, "there's music, then there's the music business--one's got nothing to do with the other." Kenny G is about making Jack ($$$). Alot of people buy into what he's selling. That's OK, just don't call it something it isn't (jazz!). And I think Kenny taking Louis Armostrong's tune is musical necrophilia in a major way. As if he needs to cop that tune to make more money anyway. Is it true he meant it as a tribute? If so, he is a confused person. If you want to support jazz, walk the talk: go see the guys/gals working in clubs who get paid $40/night and play for the love of it; buy their records, get their stuff played on the radio so they can make $ off the song publishing. If you've got the coin, give money to jazz educational programs, encourage kids who respect you to give jazz a try and listen to it in hopes they may appreciate it the way you do. I'm gonna walk the talk this weekend when I work out Pat's "Last Train Home" with my 8 year old daughter who plays piano and hasn't really tried to play jazz yet (mostly classical and blues thus far) I recently bought Pat's voluminous Songbook and I have my work cut out for me!

 

Date:	31-Aug-2000 16:44:55
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	Miriam-"Sigh...did it every occur to any of you sometimes people like to listen to relaxing or simple music? The John Teshes, Yanni's and Kenny G's have their place in music, just like the Mariah Carey's and Celine Dion's." Miriam: I think the issue is what you search out to relax to. I really feel that people don't think nearly enough about anything in life, including what the arts mean to us all. A while back I posted some suggestions of recordings for people to check out if they want to check out music that is both "Jazz" and "Relaxing". I suggest you check out some of those records-I think you'll find that if you do, you'll start to hear a difference in what, say, Toots Thielemans plays and what Kenny G plays. It's kind of like the point when people realize that there is a fundemental difference between Monet and Norman Rockwell-it doesn't mean you can't like Rockwell, it just means that you have allowed yourself to experience something deeper, and thereby deepen your understanding of the human condition-become more "Human", if you will. I think everybody owes themselves the challenge to learn and grow and experience more. I think when you do, and when you listen to, say, Ben Webster play "My Funny Valentine", I think it will all be clear. P.S.-I think if you put a record like Ben Webster's "Music for Loving" on during the next romantic evening you have, you'll notice the difference there too!

 

Date:	01-Sep-2000 00:55:45
From:	Leon Ruppolo (satchmo_754@hotmail.com)
	Ain't gonna lie to ya: the name Pat Metheny never entered my ears and I still don't know who he is, but I certainly lend him my undivided support if he trashes Kenny G. It isn't the man I hate, it is his music and what it stands for. And as for you Rick Banales, man, get the f--k out, is all I can say. You can't get any more concise than that, which is what is appropriate and necessary for the fake jazz fans who come crashing in here looking for something to "relax" them. It kills me, every day it does, because people like yourself (or at least those you defend), if they dare venture out into the world of real jazz, stick to the ballads, the romantic songs, which is acceptable if you EXPAND beyond that. There is just so much more to this music - I don't care if Coltrane is playing a ballad or Kenny G or whoever. Jazz was created as an ART form. Those who truly love it will appreciate it as that as well as an entertainment form. Kenny G fans, in general, know nothing about nor make an effort to learn about the true greats. They not condone the blatant EXPLOITATION of jazz by 1) supporting Kenny G, who plays from a money-crazed genre of music that isn't in any way jazz, and 2) shying away from anything softer than a romance ballad - you name Ben Webster, "my Funny Valentine," great song, great artist; try something harder though, man, Sonny Rollins hard bop, or if you are really brave try the underground avant-garde stuff of today, man, that'll shock any Kenny G fan back into the elevator or air-conditioned supermarket, or force back BEHIND THE WHEEL of his rush-hour Yuppiemobile (take your pick) on his way back to the suburbs....you see what I'm saying. You want relaxation? Smoke some gage, man, but don't exploit this wonderful, beautiful, impeccable American art form. Don't sully it. (Footnote: man, it is soooo difficult to be a high school jazz fan, not only am I musically lonely, but I have to explain to my peers the distinction between smooth "jazz" and the stuff I

 

Date:	01-Sep-2000 01:06:21
From:	Leon Ruppolo (again) (satchmo_754@hotmail.com)
	Just a quick addition I must make, in reference to the comment made by one pitifully misguided apparent Kenny G supporter... You stated something about the implied peaceful openness of Louis Armstrong's music by citing his recording of What a Wonderful World. That song is arguably his WORST work ever - I do not care how many copies it sold, how well it fits into movies and TV dramas. I was duped (by the smooth jazz stations, of course, which I now avoid constantly) into believing that that song is somehow a jazz song simply because Louis sings it - not true. That song is a sappy, synthesized, mney-pursuant pop song that bears not one element of a jazz song. People assume (naturally) that exemplifies his finest hour because it caught on with the mainstream audience. We all know jazz hasn't been a mainstream music since big band died and bebop rose. (Thank God, the music never would have flowered if it was buried under the weight of the commercial mainstream.) I can name a few less innocent songs by Louis that are among the best - hmmmm, namely "You Rascal, You" (tame, yes, but his band sang it at times very emphatically, love the line "I'm gonna kill you just for fun, you rascal, you"), and from the Creole Jazz Band days and earlier, he enjoyed the song Take Your Finger Outta Katie's Ass. Don't think that one made it to the LP! In conclusion, look at the period of 1920 to perhaps 1940 or 1950 for the man's best work. Turn your ears away from What a Wonderful World and any other pop songs Louis

 

Date:	01-Sep-2000 12:37:15
From:	Andreas
	Leon raises a good point. So many times I've mentioned that I like jazz and gotten responses like "Oh yeah, Kenny G, the Wave (local lame-ass smooth "jazz" station)", and I have to explain that neither has the least bit to do with jazz. It's depressing to think that kids in high school today will be turned off to jazz because all they hear is Kenny G & co. People are certainly entitled to listen to and enjoy whatever they like, just STOP CALLING IT JAZZ! Get your crappy Kenny G CD's out of the jazz section and I'll never have anything nasty to say about him again.

 

Date:	03-Sep-2000 14:49:24
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	Leon- Ya gotta chill, son. I'm not saying the only worthwile thing in jazz to listen to is romantic ballads-I'm just saying for a Kenny G fan, it's the best place to start. I'm listening right now to Tomasz Stanko "Leosia" on ECM-great album, but if you play this back-to-back with "Songbird", you'll turn somebody off. It's great that you're into Louis, and it's great that your passionate about the music, but you have to be able to talk about it without turning other people off. It's not a real long way from Johnny Hodges to Sonny Rollins-if you start someone off on the trip, they'll probably get there on their own. There is a difference between being selective and being elitist-probably a difference that comes with age. A long time ago I probably would have gotten pissed-off at the "fuck-off" remark-now I can chalk it up to a combination of unbridled passion for jazz and adolescent insensitivity. If you look before you type, you'll see we're both talking about the same thing-the only difference is sublety.

 

Date:	04-Sep-2000 15:17:03
From:	Leon Ruppolo
	Eh, maybe your right. My opinions on this thing go WAY beyond music; I tie them into social class and personal identity and an array of other things that you would think would be irrelevant...You see, I closely associate the whole Kenny G/smooth jazz thing with the rich; I see that music - as I said - as something for yuppies to listen to in their BMWs. And I'm disgusted when they make the claim that they like jazz - we all know smooth jazz is a misnomer - and feelthat the rich are exploiting a musical art form that belongs to the middle class and poor. So that is why I become a little bit fervid when talking about this - because of the associations I have with other stuff. Anyway, I'm probably wrong but either way...whatever. You are right though; I guess that is where a Kenny G fan would start. In fact as I remember I used to listen to that style and when I did turn to the real stuff I turned to the ballads, which I am now thoroughly bored with. And personally I'd rather see someone listen to a ballad by a classic performer (even without any interest in the musician) than listen to Kenny G. Gotta ask though: what did you mean by "It's not a long road from Johnny Hodges

 

Date:	04-Sep-2000 19:47:09
From:	Robert BIakabatuka (zulutuka@yahoo.com)
	Anyone who would log onto a site to read about Pat,knows what good jazz is all about.Kenny G is a mediocre muscian at best,and has survived simply,because there are those who enjoy that sort of sappy,perverse,fucked up kind of shit.Hey Michael Bolton has'nt done too badly either.It is sad,that people have to protitute themselves and sell out to prove how little talent they posess.It sad too that Kenny G,with some serious work could be a great one,right now he is just another wannabe

 

Date:	04-Sep-2000 19:50:43
From:	Robert Biakbatuka (zulutuka@yahoo.com)
	And Yes, I am A musician,A great one.

 

Date:	05-Sep-2000 10:27:42
From:	Ken Dryden
	Comparing Kenny G to any real jazz musician is like comparing Broadway multi-millionaire Andrew Lloyd Webber's work to that of Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, George Gershwin, etc. The modern clowns may sell a lot of tickets, sheet music and CDs, but musically, there's nothing there.

 

Date:	05-Sep-2000 23:25:33
From:	Tiki
	Robert B. - I'll bet that's exactly what Kenny G would say!

 

Date:	07-Sep-2000 16:20:01
From:	Andre Kage (Rynersucks@hotmail.com)
	I have never heard of Pat Metheny before today, but I do enjoy jazz. His comments are right on the mark. An egual mix of emotion and facts his point comes across perfectly. Can you do better?

 

Date:	07-Sep-2000 21:43:16
From:	Tom
	Andre: Who's you?

 

Date:	08-Sep-2000 15:55:49
From:	Steve Kornfeld (steven.kornfeld@novellus.com)
	I believe that although Pat's comments on Kenny were probably viable and credible from a purist's standpoint, what difference does it make? Those who enjoy Kenny's music will continue to do so, and why shouldn't they? Although I personally enjoy the improvisation of true jazz artists, there are those who's tastes are more in the pop genre. In fact, in a perverse sense, it may be kind of a good thing that the masses consider Kenny a jazz performer. Let me explain. As a child of the '70's, it was rock and roll or nothing!! I was introduced to jazz by Spyro Gyra, a pop/rock oriented emsemble, but they were and are catagorized as a jazz band. From there, I fell into Miles, Bird and so on. I was introduced to classical by Emerson, Lake,& Palmer, particularily Pictures at an Exhibition, a classical work by Mussorsky. From there, I went into Mozart, Beethoven and so on. What I'm trying to say is that if people like Kenny's music for what it is, so what? But if just a few people, even mistakenly connect him with true jazz and become interested enough to investigate further, is Kenny performing a service or disservice? As far as Kenny having discredited Louie, it wouldn't be the first time an artist has defiled another's work either by covering a tune badly or dubbing, so why crucify Kenny? Pat's comments are his opinion, as is his right, just as Kenny's music is an expression of his, so what's all the hoopla about?

 

Date:	09-Sep-2000 22:34:48
From:	jay (jaysmooth@freeze.com)
	I've always been fond of both Kenny G. and Pat Metheny. I have cd's of both artists. I'm paying this sad and embarrassing gossip no mind because I think it's disgusting that a musician as gifted as Pat Metheny could have made such comments about another musician. Music changes it's face with the changing times. You can't become distorted when someone else decides he's going to change the face of Jazz. I might care about Mr. Armstrong's music but I don't know the man personally! For all I know, he could have been a cross-dresser on his own time! Lets not be rediculous. Music has a right to change and evolve into whatever the age dictates! I will continue buying Mr. Matheny's music because he's so talented and he's one of my influences as a guitarist myself but if he actually made those comments, the man's a talented idiot with no verbal self control. I expect to see him in Jerry Springer's show soon! Jay, NYC

 

Date:	13-Sep-2000 22:01:44
From:	Dave at home (dm522@juno.com)
	Q- What's the difference between Kenny G & an Uzi? A- An Uzi only repeats 100 times! hehehe

 

Date:	14-Sep-2000 13:56:47
From:	Sam Y.
	I completely agree with Pat's opinion of Kenny G. He has no musical value whatsoever, and I'd sooner listen to a retarded chimp trying to learn the violin. But Pat is taking the whole thing way too seriously. One of the comments in his wonderful rant (omitted in the excerpt that heads this discussion) was "There ARE some things that are sacred." No, Pat, there aren't---short of destruction of the originals. Listeners are still free to ignore Kenny G's putrid honkings and enjoy Armstrong's music as he created it---and that's surely what they'll do. All Kenny G. did was to exhibit a ludicrously misplaced ego the size of the Crab Nebula and to turn himself into even more of a laughingstock than he already was. Nothing is sacred. It's not inconceivable that someday someone will come along who can create something worthwhile by overdubbing Louis Armstrong. (It sure won't be Kenny G., though.) If it turns out to be more garbage, all we have to do is laugh, turn it off, and put on some unadulterated Louis to take the bad taste out of our ears.

 

Date:	14-Sep-2000 20:31:26
From:	Chuck Edwards
	I have seen Kenny G perform live. It was ok. In fact, in fairness to Mr. G. , I liked both of the notes he played that night.

 

Date:	16-Sep-2000 04:13:52
From:	Dan (FunkyMonk_99@hotmail.com)
	Very true Mr Metheny, and if you haven't noticed, this kind of thing is happening to other styles of music. Just look at blues music being produced today and compare with that of the past. It's extremely dull and a complete rip off and is not worthy of being termed "the blues". All of the soul and originality seems to be missing in most of todays music whether it's jazz, blues or even hardore metal shit. Kenny G definitely had it coming and I'm glad it came from Pat Metheny. I'm a 17 year old guitar player who wants to go pro and i think a little more spirit and knowledge wouldn't go a stray in music in the near future because a lot of us can't take much more of todays shit. That's what I think anyway.

 

Date:	16-Sep-2000 04:15:00
From:	Dan (FunkyMonk_99@hotmail.com)
	Very true Mr Metheny, and if you haven't noticed, this kind of thing is happening to other styles of music. Just look at blues music being produced today and compare with that of the past. It's extremely dull and a complete rip off and is not worthy of being termed "the blues". All of the soul and originality seems to be missing in most of todays music whether it's jazz, blues or even hardore metal shit. Kenny G definitely had it coming and I'm glad it came from Pat Metheny. I'm a 17 year old guitar player who wants to go pro and i think a little more spirit and knowledge wouldn't go a stray in music in the near future because a lot of us can't take much more of todays shit. That's what I think anyway. By the way Pat, I'm a friend of Travis Jenkin's son.

 

Date:	16-Sep-2000 17:16:02
From:	karl engelmann (sojomojo@hotmail)
	only in today's comercial sell-out world would a "musician" such as mr g be able to put bread on the table. his type of music is a mirror image of the brain-washed, tootie-fruity, everything is alright mentality of the people who listen to it. kenny is about image, not inovation. this whole episode should wake us up to the point of music revolution. everything we play and listen to should be thought as a wooden spike driving through the heart of the pop music vampire.

 

Date:	18-Sep-2000 00:45:43
From:	eric kennedy (erickennedy69@hotmail.com)
	OUR OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES; EVERYONE HAS ONE AND IN THEIR FAMILY. I AM A MUSICIAN AND PROUD OF THIS FACT. I RESPECT ALL MUSICIANS. THE GOAL IS TO OFFER THAT WHICH IS IN YOUR HEART. SOMETIMES WE MAKE MONEY AND SUPPORT OUR FAMILIES. SOMETIMES THE MUSICIAN BARELY SURVIVES. I DON'T MIND ANYONE MAKING A LIVING. EVERY HUMAN DESERVES THE RIGHT TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY,FINANCE AND A PROFESSION. I LOVE ALL MUSIC. I HAVE MUSIC FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD ON MY STEREO MOST OF THE MUSIC IN MY HOME IS WHAT WE CALL AMERICAN CLASSICAL MUSIC. THIS IS THE MUSIC FOUNDED MOSTLY BY THE MEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR. THIS MUSIC AND ITS OWNERSHIP HAS BEEN ABUSED, MISUSED AND NEGLECTED IN THIS COUNTRY. THIS MUSIC HAS THE CULTURE, SPIRIT AND THEORIES OF ALL THE WORLD'S FOLK MUSIC. WE MOLD THIS WITH HARD WORK, LOVE AND DEVOTION. THIS MUSIC WELCOMES EVERYONE. I HAVE WATCHED MANY AN AMERICAN CLASSICAL MUSICIAN, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, SUFFER AND FIGHT FOR THIS MUSIC(BARRY HARRIS, ROLAND KIRK AND MARY LOU WILLIAMS BEING GOOD EXAMPLES). WE WORK HARD AND STAND FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE: THE TRUTH. THE TRUTH IS KENNY G IS A MUSICIAN. HE IS NOT A JAZZ MUSICIAN. JAZZ IS STRAIGHT AHEAD MUSIC; STRAIGHT FROM THE HEART. JAZZ IS AN ELEGANT YET PRIMAL FOLK MUSIC FROM THE STREETS BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T CARE FOR THE BULLSHIT,ARGUMENTS AND CRITIQUES. JAZZ IS GREAT DISCIPLINE AND THE EXPLORING OF FREEDOM AND SONG IN THE SOUL. TRUE JAZZ IS NOT CALCULATED PERFORMANCES. TRUE JAZZ IS NOT MERE STUDIO TRICKS. TRUE JAZZ IS INDIVIDUAL AND NOT GENERIC(METHENY OR KENNY G: YOUR CHOICE). TRUE JAZZ IS OFFERED TO ALL OF US. YOU CAN LISTEN TO WHAT YOU WANT. I DO. JUST REMEMBER THAT DUKE ELLINGTON SAID THAT WE HAVE TWO KINDS OF MUSIC: GOOD AND BAD. THIS IS YOUR DECISION. IF ANY OF YOU METHENY AND KENNY G. FANS DON'T KNOW WHO THE GREAT DUKE ELLINGTON IS OR WAS, WELL, SHAME ON YOU!!! PLEASE STUDY THE TRUTH OR ELSE ONE DAY, WE MAY HAVE COMMENTS AND ARGUMENTS PERTAINING TO THE ORIGIN OF OUR GREAT LOUIS ARMSTRONG!!!! PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU ALL.

 

Date:	18-Sep-2000 01:32:28
From:	e.b.k. (returning)
	KENNY G. SUCKS. PAT METHENY SUCKS. THE KINGS OF SPAZZ. SPAM PLUS JAZZ EQUALS SPAZZ. CAN'T THESE TWO GUYS AFFORD HAIRCUTS AT LEAST AT THE HAIR CUTTERY? MAYBE WE SHOULD START A COLLECTION FOR THESE COMFORTABLE INCOME GENIUSES. THEY ARE BOTH PLAYING SOME COMMERCIAL,COUNTRY LIKE A DOZEN EGGS BULLSHIT. THEY ARE BOTH CRIMINALS AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. BIG FUCKING DEAL. METHENY SLAMS KENNY. KENNY WILL SLAM METHENY. WHO WILL WIN THE W.W.F. COWBOY MUSIC BELT? JAZZ IS SUPPOSE TO STIMULATE YOUR MIND, HEART AND MOST OF ALL: SWING. THESE TWO GUYS COULD NOT SWING IF YOU TOOK THEM TO A PLAYGROUND DURING AN EARTHQUAKE. I WOULD RATHER HEAR HANK GARLAND, TED DUNBAR, JIMMY PONDER, KENNY B., WES, CHARLIE CHRISTIAN OR TAL FARLOW. I WOULD RATHER HEAR CARLOS SANTANA AND JIMI HENDRIX.I WOULD RATHER HEAR ROY CLARK AND EARL SCRUGGS BECAUSE THEY SOUND LIKE THEMSELVES AND THEY SWING. I WOULD RATHER HEAR MY 8 YEAR OLD CREATE MUSIC FROM THE BOTTOM OF HER SOUL. I WOULD RATHER HEAR TED NUGENT! HE ADMITS THAT HE IS A ROCK AND ROLLER. JUST BECAUSE PAT METHENY HATES KENNY GORELICK'S MUSIC DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IS SUPERMAN. LONG LIVE GRANT GREEN!!!!

 

Date:	18-Sep-2000 17:27:47
From:	Rich Acciavatti (jumbush@bellatlantic.net)
	Although Pat Metheny's use of the English language is poor, his message was crystal clear. After wading through poor grammar, bad punctuation, spelling errors and a never-ending supply of run-on sentences, I concluded that Metheny's attack on Kenny G. was completely justified! I agree with most of the statements in his lengthy diatribe. Metheny should be commended for his bravery in speaking out against Kenny G. It is rare (and politically incorrect!) for a professional musician to publicly condemn a fellow musician. Perhaps this was safe in that the victim in this case was only Kenny G. and not a “real musician” deserving of respect. Flibbert J. Goosty wrote, "if there were no Kenny G., what would we hear every time we walk into an elevator?" What happened to Henry Mancini, Mantovani, or even Lawrence Welk? Background music should be light - NOT nauseating. You may not groove listening to 1001 Strings playing Eleanor Rigby, but it least it won’t cause you any discomfort! Kenny G. is a disgrace to music in general -- not only to the genre. He is royalty to his scores of fans, but to me he is nothing more than a Prince of Pablum, or Sultan of Schmaltz. Gorelick’s idiotic iterations are a sham -- he is a charlatan masquerading as a "smooth jazz artist”. But in reality, G. is a smooth operator and a supreme con artist. And it’s sad that Kenny Gorelick has been able to trick so many poor, naïve souls and soak them for MILLIONS$$$! Metheny neglected to mention that besides desecrating the music of Louie Armstrong, he has also defiled the exquisite creation of Adolph Sax!

 

Date:	19-Sep-2000 16:08:16
From:	Adam Powell
	To the guy who says that Metheny doesn't swing, all you do is show that you are a clueless fool. Metheny has swung his ASS off for twenty fucking years with everyone from Sonny Rollins to the Heath Brothers to Roy Haynes to Billy Higgins to Elvin Jones to Kenny Garrett to McCoy Tyner AND he has played some brilliant "other" stuff too. If you don't know this, or more to the point, CAN'T HEAR IT - then shut the fuck up!! The only thing worse than a clueless Kenny G fan is a clueless mainstream fan who thinks he is hip when he don't know shit!!

 

Date:	19-Sep-2000 21:48:42
From:	tony exum jr (one1take@aol.com)
	My opinion is mixed. Not all of Pat's music is straight ahead. Just the other day I heard Kenny g "midnight Motion" and then some Pat Mentheny song from '81 right after it (ironic to say the least) So I think Pat is contrdicting himself a little bit. 1. Kennny G was influenced by sax players like Grover and Ronnie Lwas and Sanborn so he doesnt have the same apporach as say Antonio Hart or someone with a strong sense of harmony in a bebop CONTEXT WHY? CUZ HE AINT PLAYING BEBOP 2. Kenny G was/is honest about his appraoch to music. In other words he never tried to say that bird or trane influenced him. In fact, he mentions somewhere in the liner notes of that Classics in the Key of 'G' album that he DID NOT EMALUTE THAT STYLE OF PLAYING. so lower, for the lack of a better term, your expectations of him as an improviser the stuff he records what be worse if he played nothing but bebop licks over his music. What he does is idiomatic of that style of music. leave him alone now if he was to play pentatonic licks and nothing else over a standard like str8 no chaser or something then talk shit 3. Some people in jazz have said similar things about some of Pat Mentheny's music 4. What a Wonderful World? jazz?? really???? sounds like a pop standard to me (where is Louie's trumpet playing or where is the improv in that song) but because louie sang it its jazz?? not exactly that is like saying Kenny G is str8 up jazz just because he plays the sax once again not exactly .... 5. Pat should backoff and let me Kenny play his music Its not Kenny'S fault that people think its jazz blame the industry for that its much easier to market it as jazz then it is to called it "instrumental pop" OR VARIOUS OTHER SUB-CATEGORIES..... to sum it up Kenny does his thing the way he knows how. sure its boring at times and gimmicky but what do you expect he has to that is what is expected of him by his fan base because that's what got their attention in the first place speaking from a recording artist point of view Kenny is now a pop superstar so he must give the prople what they want so he can continue to sell millions of record so he can continue to have a damn contrct with Arista records let him be if you dont like dont listen to it and as for Pat I wonder what cCharlie Christian would say or Wes about some of your music....

 

Date:	20-Sep-2000 12:40:53
From:	Dave
	What was said by Mr. Metheny, frankly, has made me more proud of the jazz tradition than I was ever before. I think it is wonderful that a musician can stand up and say, "Enough," when he sees his lifelong love raped in the alley. This 'attack' on Kenny G will definitely have a positive effect on the jazz tradition and quality of musicianship, due to its frightening of wanna-be-g's out there. If Kenny-G's music had any musical difficulty or originality in texture to it, these comments may or may not have been uncalled for, since every type of new music that has come along has endured criticism from all ends of the musical spectrum. However, Kenny-G's music, if accepted by the jazz community, would introduce an entirely new aspect to jazz playing and performing -- crapulence. If any no-good backstreet-loving hack was allowed to call himself a 'jazz artist,' what would happen to the legacy of phenomenal players that have sparsely populated history? What would jazz become if it was played to crowds of hundreds of thousands of young teenage girls, who bought shirts, stickers, and had no idea of the history of what jazz is all about? Kenny-G's playing has defiled the name, 'Jazz.' I'm sick and tired of having the response to, 'Do you like jazz?', be, "Oh, you mean, like, Kenny-G?" I'd like to thank you, Mr. Metheny, for your passionate and accurate reaction to Mr. G., and I hope you continue to thrive in your musical excellence.

 

Date:	20-Sep-2000 13:14:29
From:	Rich Acciavatti (jumbush@bellatlantic.net)
	To Adam Powell: Regarding Eric Kennedy's post saying that Pat Metheny doesn't swing, I strongly agree with you. Metheny is talented and certainly holds impressive credentials in the industry. But some of his music has also turned up on the so-called Smooth lame-ass radio stations as well. In any case, even the lamest, sappiest tunes from the PMG repertoire are not nearly as offensive as ANYTHING performed by the odious Kenny G! I feel that for the most part, Metheny shines in the PMG. That's his element. However, he is least effective when playing in an ensemble where there are giants. In that arena, he often pales considerably. For example, when Metheny is in the company of legendary artists such as Mike Brecker,Jack DeJohnette, and Charlie Haden, it just doesn't sound right. His solos and ideas sound weak not only following a Brecker solo, but also with the supreme rhythmic accompaniment. When players of that high caliber are matched with Scofield, Abercrombie, McLaughlin, to give just a few examples, the effect is not the same. Metheny always sounds like the weak link in the chain. But while his playing doesn't necessarily get "in the way" of what's going on with the major league players, sometimes you listen and think, "Jeez, I wish he was sitting on the bench". Or, "Why is he on this record with the Heath brothers???". But that's just my opinion. In Metheny's diatribe, he states that Kenny G. SHOULD be held up to the same standard as Coltrane. Well, I totally agree with that statement. I believe that Metheny ALSO must be held up to that same high standard. Therefore, I believe it would be accurate to say "Kenny G. is NO COLTRANE", and "Pat Metheny is NO McLaughlin!". I believe when people listen to Metheny, they appreciate the general package (e.g., his compositions, the mix, his personal sound, etc.) but do not necessarily evaluate him solely as a guitar player or innovator. In a way, there's a similarity. Kenny G. is presented as a "package", (sound, hair, tunes, etc.). The major difference is in the sophistication of the audience. Metheny fans ARE actually jazz fans and generally have a decent ear, while Kenny G's legions of fans are all mindless, tone-deaf, naive twits. But I'll say it again -- Metheny's comments about Gorelick, the Titan of Tastelessness, were 100% justified, even if the source is neither a great jazz icon nor literary genius! Regards...

 

Date:	21-Sep-2000 12:43:12
From:	Stampout KennyG
	Plain and simple: Kenny G. SUCKS! HE HAS NO TALENT, and he looks like a greasy slimeball to boot. I wish he would give up torturing us with his horn and become a dentist. At least as a dentist, he would still have the opportunity to hear his recordings while at work!

 

Date:	21-Sep-2000 15:01:32
From:	John Tesh
	Some folks on my staff told me about this site (since I was mentioned in several posts). I read every post, and I'm very appalled. Metheny's comments were sickening and unprofessional. A disgrace. Perhaps it's because of my busy schedule, but I never knew that these types of sentiments existed. Kenny has produced some of the greatest music in its genre during the past two decades. I never imagined that people felt this way about him until I read these vicious, horrible posts. You should all be ashamed of what you've done. If you don't want Kenny's music classified as jazz, I'm sorry, because IT IS JAZZ. Jazz is a state of being-- a state of mind -- an expression. Who is to say that the music of Leonard Bernstein or Bob Marley is not jazz? If it is soulful and the message touches your heart, then it's jazz. That is why Kenny IS an incredible jazz artist. His music and melodic concept, along with incredible, mind-boggling technique on the soprano sax, penetrates your soul. And his skills are world-class, for which he should be admired and revered -- not vilified. I detect a great deal of envy on the part of these posters as well as Mr. Metheny himself. I am not just praising Kenny because he is my friend. I truly feel that he is a marvelous technician, and plays with spirit, imagination, and feeling. I am positive Louis Armstrong would have greatly admired and appreciated ALL of Kenny's efforts (yes, yes, even the overdub on "Wonderful World"!). I strongly believe that if Mr. Armstrong were alive today, he may even wish to join Kenny on a duet album of romantic favorites. Why NOT??? I realize that I too will be attacked for this opinion. But these attacks on Kenny can go on unanswered no longer. I became tearful after reading the hateful and despicable posts on this board. If Mr. Metheny wishes to condemn me for my views also, so be it. Make my day -- I will have equal time and there will be equal exposure. Kenny is a true gentleman and has not responded to these blistering attacks, and probably won't. So, go ahead if it makes you all feel so "big" -- keep attacking Kenny. But just remember one thing -- I'll be watching. In the end, it will be Kenny who prevails.

 

Date:	21-Sep-2000 19:46:22
From:	tony exum (TONY1TAKE@YAHOO.COM )
	In response to johnTesh dont let it worry you everyone has the right to play the way they feel. i wonder how many of those people are just jjumping on the bandwagon just because pat says he hate kenny. If I remember correctly, gentleman posted a message saying that Pat is just "ribbing" us and that he a Kenny Gorelick jam on occasion. Well hopefully that's true but Pat had no right to attack Kenny personally in the media. A true musician would approach that person ..in person not publicly I am sitting here listening to G play with JLF on a tune called Wizard Island some great playing and yes a couple of bebop lick s were thrown in too PEOPLE kenny can play the sax well techincally speaking and I am sure if he wanted to he could play music that isnt as formulaic and it is now so people please back off Hate Kenny cuz you Hate kenny not because everyone in the so-called Jazz community does I am a saxophonist myuself G and I had the same influences. I was a stuent a Uni of Denver and I got hated on just because I did at one time listen to G (his older stuff like G-force and JLF) i couldnt even get my professor and fellow students to really even acknowledge me totally just becaSue of that TO THE POINT WERE I QUIT SCHOOL AND JUST STUDIED BEBOP ON MY OWN I think its time to move on Kenny G is going to keep playing regardless of what anyone says besides had he not sold 36 millions copies of is albums NOBODY WOULD GIVE A FUCK ABOUT WHAT HE DOES AND IF ANY ONE RESPECTED JAZZ MUSICIAN ACTUALLY APPLAUDED HIS EFFORTS NO ONE WOULD HATE HIM AS MUCH EITHER

 

Date:	21-Sep-2000 21:13:08
From:	Rick Banales (riczen@hotmail.com)
	Why do I feel like a hunter with a bazooka at a boneless chicken ranch... I just can't believe that JOHN TESH is defending KENNY G from being flamed by everybody here and PAT METHENY!!! Gee, where the hell do I start? I hope Mr. Tesh is not comparing his music and the music of Mr. Gee to Jazz-if anything, Mr. Tesh's music is farther down the Easy Listening road than Kenny! Jazz IS NOT a "... state of being-- a state of mind -- an expression..." Jazz is a musical art form that has it's basis in blues and swing and improvisation. Bob Marley was NOT a jazz musician-his music had very close affinities with Caribbean folk music, modern reggae, and American R&B. I think by fuzzing up what are very definite terms, Mr. Tesh is trying to legitimize his music. Mr. Tesh, I'm not saying I dislike you as a person, in fact one of my favorite musicians, Toots Thielemans, played on one of your albums. I just think that in our society it's very easy for people to dismiss the vibrant, magnificent work of the fathers of this art form like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker. If you think your work and the work of Kenny G is really part of the Jazz contunuum, I would like to see you put that opinion on the line. I would like to hear you, on just one album, try to play and do justice to a work like "Giant Steps", "Disinfinado", or even a blues like "Mr. P.C.". I would really like to hear you answer the challenge. Until then, I suggest you let the people who know about Jazz, like Pat Metheny, take someone like Kenny G to task for being the emperor with no clothes. -And you don't look good naked, either.

 

Date:	21-Sep-2000 21:50:04
From:	Boobie (Boobie@asheboro.com)
	I think that it was kinda funny the way Pat came out and said something like that about Kenny G, but sometimes I think the truth hurts. Another thing I agree with him about Keeny g's playing is the it is not cool to still other peeps licks. I understand how it feels to have a lick took from you and played over and over. *cough* (DD) *cough.* But I don't think that using the internet is the correct way to discuss the issue. Boobie

 

Date:	25-Sep-2000 16:51:23
From:	ebk
	TO MR. ADAM POWELL: YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT FOR USING SONNY ROLLINS,ROY HAYNES, PAT METHENY AND SWING IN THE SAME SENTENCE! I HAVE HEARD METHENY PERFORM WITH THESE ARTIST LIVE AND/OR RECORDED. METHENY IS TALENTED, BUT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE TONES AND RHYTHMS WHEN COMPARED TO THE ARTIST YOU MENTIONED. TRUE OR FALSE, MEDIA PAWN? GOD BLESS YOU.

 

Date:	25-Sep-2000 23:14:45
From:	Dr. Brian Sauter
	I do not understand why Mr. Banales is surprised that others in the music industry would defend Kenny G. Kenny G. is a master of the soprano saxophone and has earned his 'button' in the industry, and deserves it. I have been often called a "jazz snob" by many, yet I am one of Kenny G's biggest fans. His music really speaks to me, and it transcends all music borders. Before retiring, I was a professor of jazz history and music theory, and I can tell you without any hesitation or embarrassment whatsoever -- Kenny G. IS a Jazz artist, and his music is Jazz! Over the years, I have listened to many soprano sax players in jazz other than Mr. G., notably John Coltrane, Pat LaBarbera, Dave Liebman, Joe Farrell, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and Sidney Bechet, just to name a few. While there's no doubt that those individuals have all enriched jazz with their contributions, there are millions of jazz aficionados throughout the world who believe, as I do, that Kenny G.'s contributions are of equal historic importance. You may not realize it now, but in time it will prove to be true. And to those who have said that Kenny G. is not jazz, may I remind you of his earliest influences? Rahsaan Roland Kirk's influence is evident in Mr. G's mastery of the circular breathing technique. Coltrane's influence on Kenny, though, is definitely the strongest of all. This is heard in Kenny's flawless execution, modality, his use of harmonics and the upper partials, false-fingering and most importantly, his 'sheets of sound' methodology (check out "Eastside jam" and "Getting' on the Step", from the "Moments" album. Coltrane's lyricism (as in this early 60s phase) can be heard on Kenny's versions of "Body and Soul", and "'Round Midnight" on his incredible masterpiece, "Classics in the Key of G", which is no doubt his greatest work to date. Kenny's soulful playing is reminiscent of the New Orleans flavor as well. This can be heard in the Bechet-like passages (sans the wide vibrato!) on "Even If My Heart Would Break" with vocalist Aaron Neville, and of course, his heart-warming and critically-acclaimed rendition of Louis Armstrong's classic, "Wonderful World". Some of the "Giant Steps" taunts written on this message thread are totally absurd! Kenny G. plays well enough over Giant Steps to answer the challenge. However, it would be a bit out of character. It is obvious that the way in which Smooth-type jazz swings is far different than be-bop and post-bop (i.e., hard-bop, etc.), so a co-mingling of this music would not fit in with his repertoire. But again, he would have no trouble churning out an award-winning performance on the Coltrane classic. Mr. G. is one of the greatest technical masters of his instrument, and I have no doubt that he spent many of his early years in the woodshed blowing Giant Steps, Countdown, and Moments Notice at a rapid tempo. I conclude that Kenny G. is possibly the MOST under-rated artist in the history of Jazz. It may be that the posters on this thread feel that when something sells more records than the Monkees, it must be like the Monkees. But clearly, Kenny is worlds apart from the bubble-gum artist implied on forums such as this. The fact is, all of Kenny's detractors are sadly mistaken and horribly misguided. Anyone who criticizes Kenny G. is not sophisticated enough to appreciate the finer things in life. A Kenny G. CD, along with a glass of fine champagne and a beautiful woman is about as good as it gets! And Kenny G. brings it all together!

 

Date:	26-Sep-2000 07:20:27
From:	Erik J (ejshp3dee@hotmail.com)
	As I sit here listening to the masterpiece Metheny Group CD "Travels", I cannot help but reflect on Pat's comments about Kenny G with absolute glee. I do not generally promote the bashing of anyone; however, aside from having a general aversion to Kenny G's brand of insipid, jejune ersatz-jazz, I must say that Gorelick, by undertaking an overdub project such as the Louis Armstrong fiasco has invited the wrath of serious jazz fans everywhere. As a postscript I would like to add that Pat can BURN over Giant Steps, so all you "Pat-Metheny-is-a-smooth-jazzer" skeptics can go pound sand with your pal Kenny while he lulls you into a coma with his music-less Gorelicks (sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

Date:	26-Sep-2000 13:30:28
From:	Sammy H (slammyapple@yahoo.com)
	hahahahahahaha!!!! this is getting better and better! isn't this subject over? there are so many dead horses here you could glue together every kenny g cd ever sold. once john tesh starts proselytizing on jazz, it's time to run. loved ya' on ET, but c'mon - the sound of 'ka-ching!' played in an ivory tower doesn't sound like jazz to anyone who knows life ain't always pretty. we're all a little past the teletubbies now, so going goo-goo on a min7 chord doesn't really cut it. i'm sure nobody meant to offend your sensitive ears, but we can't all be MPAA-approved...

 

Date:	26-Sep-2000 17:00:54
From:	Ian Stewart (ianstewart_1@prodigy.net)
	I quite agree with Dr. Sauter's brilliant assessment. Very brave, (considering the hostility on this thread), and well-stated! Kenny G. is a magnificent artist, a talent we can all be proud to enjoy. I agree completely with everything stated by Mr. Tesh as well. Whether you like Mr. Gorelick's style or not, it is Jazz, and it's here to stay. In the coming years, there will be as many Kenny G. clones as there are Coltrane and Charlie Parker clones.

 

Date:	26-Sep-2000 23:34:38
From:	Nicholas Onan (nickysonanismo@hotmail.com)
	Hey Ian! Dr. Brian Sauter's comments amount to his initials: B.S!!! How the HELL can you agree with his "assessment", and dare to call it brilliant?? Kenny G's "sheets of sound" methodology??? Kenny G's ballads are as lyrical as Coltrane! What???? This totally defies all logic. The notion of Kenny G. being "influenced by Coltrane" is completely laughable, and I have only one thing to say: I'm glad I didn't attend the college where he was teaching music theory! Hey Dr. B: Clean out your ears, jerky!

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 12:06:24
From:	Antonio Weber
	Sh*ts of sound, maybe. No way is Dr. Sauter for real. That, folks, is brilliant satire, pure and simple, and somebody took the bait...

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 14:52:46
From:	Billy Shaw (shawsafan@aol.com)
	Kenny G. will smoke all of you out on his next release! I'll give you a sneak peak: Arista Records: Kenny G. -- Transitions (2 CDs!) Kenny G. - Soprano sax Pharoah Sanders - Tenor Sax *** Bennie Maupin - Bass Clarinet *** Steve Turre - Trombone, Conch Shell *** Herbie Hancock - Acoustic Piano Dave Holland - Acoustic Bass Jack DeJonette - Drums, Percussion Badal Roy - Tabla *** L. Shankar - Electric Violin *** Tracks: Giant Steps (8:33) Out of Nowhere (11:21) A Love Supreme (33:05) Seven Steps to Heaven (7:09) There is no greater love (21:07) If I were a Bell (3:12) Straight No Chaser (5:32) *** Personnel on A Love Supreme, There is no Greater Love, and Out of Nowhere only;

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 17:37:59
From:	Rodney King (stillalive&well!@jiveass.com)
	Can't we all just get along???

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 17:42:22
From:	Steve Bradford (stevieb@lycos.com)
	Dick Baker is right.

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 17:56:41
From:	Rob Sweda (srob566@arsenaux.com)
	The previous post stated "Dick Baker was right", so I checked. Yep! Dick Baker IS right! 100% on the money. Metheny's career has faded, and he opened his arrogant trap as a publicity ploy. It's a very astute observation, and I'm surprised that none of the PMG groupies picked up on this! Especially since they are supposed to be smarter than the Kenny G. groupies! Now I'm not saying that Kenny G. is great, as some others here have done. In fact, Kenny G. blows! But Metheny is really the one here who has exposed himself as a bitterly jealous and frustrated fellow smooth-jazzer who is inarticulate, to boot! Pat needs to grow up quite a bit!

 

Date:	27-Sep-2000 19:06:18
From:	rf
	I adored PM's initial comments.....but the thing is, in contrast to metheny, I've always felt that kenny g should not be looked at as a jazz musician, cuz he's certainly not! i don't need to put gorelick up there next to shorter and coltrane to see that his music is lame....my ears told me along time ago that gorelick sux. it's heavily produced instrumental diarreah.

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 13:32:42
From:	Louis Armstrong
	Who is Kenny G and why does this ofay hate my music so much? Sure, I took some easy money for singin' that damn wonderful world thing, but he's playin' this weak-ass crap over my song!! He pisses me off more than that cracker Bing Crosby!! I wish Mezz Mezzrow was here, because I need some really good weed now!! And who's John Tesh? Ain't he hostin' Hollywood Squares or somethin'? If you have to ask what Jazz is, you don't need to know!! -Satch

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 16:51:38
From:	Doug (dougs@optibase.com)
	As a sax player myself, I always thought Kenny G. was kind of a wimpy muzak sort of player, but he has found an audience and many women swoon over his sound. I don't own any Kenny G. records, but I think Mr. Metheny needs to lighten up. He's spent way to much time knocking down Kenny G. I wonder if Mr. Metheny wishes his music made the women swoon a little more...

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 16:52:21
From:	Doug (dougs@optibase.com)
	As a sax player myself, I always thought Kenny G. was kind of a wimpy muzak sort of player, but he has found an audience and many women swoon over his sound. I don't own any Kenny G. records, but I think Mr. Metheny needs to lighten up. He's spent way to much time knocking down Kenny G. I wonder if Mr. Metheny wishes his music made the women swoon a little more...

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 17:41:07
From:	Frankie Trumbauer (frankiecmelody@heavensgates.com)
	Hey Louis! Good to see you're still on the scene! (Where the heck are you, anyway?? -- I'm in Heaven and haven't seen you yet! I hope this don't mean you're in that 'other place'! Anyways, about that Kenny G. He should go fly a kite, for cryin' out loud. Your take on this was copacetic, Louie! Kenny G. is as square as they come. A real Joe Zilch! In my day, Bix, Tea and I blew circles around that goofy, mop-topped gold-digger, 'cause we were true jazzbos! Hot diggety! But Kenny G. don't have a clue on how to get hot! And all them wiseacres on this board who dig Kenny G. think they're real smarties, but they sure don't know nothin'! Kenny G. ain't nothin' but banana oil in a clip joint! But that there Coltrane, now he was really swell! The sound on his horn was the cat's meow, and his tunes were peppy, nothing like that Kenny G. Maybe he sounds better if you were crocked on some hooch!

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 23:50:06
From:	Bix Beiderbecke (bix1901@limbo.net)
	Hey Louie & Frankie! Hot diggety! It's swell to see you both here. I'm in limbo right now, but I'll be in Heaven soon. They said I need a brief period for a detox of my soul before they let me in. Meanwhile, I've been trying to improve my reading. But it's like I still can't read for sh**!!! Hoagy ended up with my good horn, and now I got this big, bright majestic thing that's so hard to play! It's a dandy, though! Can't wait to show it to Tommy (if he's where I'm going(???)!!! Hey, you wouldn't believe it -- I saw Paul here awhile ago! Jeez, was he FAT! I figured he would slim down a bit up here, but NOT Paul! Anyways, he's not conducting anymore... He said he'd be hosting a radio show with Arthur Godfrey. What a PIP! There were a bunch of smarties who were joshing Paul about his lousy conducting, but he just laughed them off! I saw Gene for a little while too... But his departure was delayed three times 'cause he kept getting caught smokin' and drinkin' giggle water! But on the subject at hand -- You jazzbos are both right! Kenny G. ain't no Shiek -- he's a joke! From what I heard up here, he's just a two-timing, no good gold-digger! His music ain't the cat's pajamas! It ain't even the cat's litter box, fellas! Copacetic! See ya soon! Love, Bix!

 

Date:	28-Sep-2000 23:56:39
From:	Steve Bradford (stevieb@lycos)
	I STILL say Dick Baker was RIGHT!!!!

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 14:54:03
From:	Andreas
	No, Mr. Tesh, just because you say it's jazz doesn't make it so. The best of any style or genre of music will touch the heart and make the mind soar to another plane. That in and of itself doesn't make it jazz, obviously. Bob Marley's music certainly lifts both the mind and spirit and he is undoubtedly one of the most significant musicians of our times, but it's not jazz (although you ought to check out Monty Alexander's interpretations of his music). Not being very knowledgeable about classical music, I will refrain from commenting on Leonard Bernstein's credentials as a jazz musician ( I understand that Bach did do some improvising). A lot of people are obviously wondering why this thread keeps going on and on. I am amused by it, even as I am an accomplice. I think the issue is not whether Kenny G sucks or not. Kenny G (and John Tesh) plays middle-of-the-road mood music with some superficial jazz elements, and he has had a lot of success, so he must be doing something right (though playing jazz ain't it). Nothing wrong with that. It's not my cup of tea, but to each his own. The real issue, which is the source of great frustration and irritation to jazz fans, is a music INDUSTRY which cranks out this plain vanilla, easily digestible so-called smooth "jazz", while people playing the real thing have very limited opportunities. I recently heard an interview on the radio (on KLON, one of the last remaining full-time jazz stations in the country) with Branford Marsalis. Even he, who is one of the most prominent jazz musicians these days, said he was having trouble getting opportunities to record music that did not fall into any of the marketing pigeon holes. Basically the record companies are only interested in having blockbusters. Music is being marketed as if it were just another product, like popcorn or soap. The problem I see is that, as jazz musicians's opportunities are limited, so too is their ability to reach out and inspire the best talent of the next generation of players. Jazz is not going to disappear, obviously, but it would be a shame to see what is arguably America's greatest artistic contribution relegated to museum piece status instead of being a vibrant creative force. Mr. G is not the only person to blame for that. Excessive conservatism and narrow-mindedness on the part of many prominent people is also responsible for stifling any real creative development. (Anyone care to start a thread on that issue?). That, I believe, is the reason why Pat Metheny's comments sparked such a strong reaction, and why jazz fans never miss an opportunity to slam Kenny. G. His success is symbolic of the problems I have discussed. Like I said earlier, just stop calling it jazz, and I won't say anything nasty about Mr. Gorelick anymore (unless you ask me, of course!)

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 14:57:16
From:	Herbie Hancock
	People: There wassomething SERIOUSLY inaccurate written on this message thread, and I MUST set the record straight!!On September 27, Billy Shaw listed the following personnel on the next Kenny G. double CD set on Arista, "Transitions": Kenny G. - Soprano sax Pharoah Sanders - Tenor Sax *** Bennie Maupin - Bass Clarinet *** Steve Turre - Trombone, Conch Shell *** Herbie Hancock - Acoustic Piano Dave Holland - Acoustic Bass Jack DeJonette - Drums, Percussion Badal Roy - Tabla *** L. Shankar - Electric Violin *** This is WRONG!!! Where did he get his information??? NUMBER 1: Steve Turre was not available, so we had Jim Pugh. AND NUMBER 2: I played ELECTRIC PIANO as well as Acoustic Piano, and he didn't give me credit! Jeez! Some people just go out on a limb and print ANYTHING! Thanks for letting me set the record straight! Peace! -- Herbie

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 15:01:54
From:	Steve Bradford (stevieb@lycos.com)
	Didn't anybody else read Dick Baker's column here??? If you did, you'd know that Dick Baker is RIGHT!!!!

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 16:19:22
From:	Buddy Bolden
	Louis!! Frankie!! Bix!! Wuzzzuppp!! This is exactly why I didn't let anybody record me! I told King Oliver just the other day, don't play into that Victrola, it'll steal your soul! And look what happened!! Someone white man stole ol' Satch's shit!! Watch yall's backs!!! Buddy

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 16:28:23
From:	Eddie Condon
	Louis, I just want to say I'm sorry that some young pup stepped on your toes. Those kids today, they just don't have any respect for the old music. I'll bet none of them ever have the traditional morning swig of gin, and I know this Gorelick kid could never look good wearing a bow tie. We should all get together and play again and teach these young kids what it's all about. I think if you've never woken up drunk in Tijuana and married, you just can't know what jazz is!! Speaking of drunk in Tijuana, Pee Wee says Hi. -Eddie

 

Date:	29-Sep-2000 19:01:48
From:	Grand Wazoo
	Is this thread turning into a seance? Looks like Kenny's got several people turning over in their graves.

 

Date:	01-Oct-2000 23:47:23
From:	Gene Krupa (hoochatdawn@heavensgates.com)
	Buddy! Eddie! Frankie! Bix! Louis! What's happening? Great to see you all! It's kinda damp here in Heaven -- my calf-skin heads keep sagging, and I've gotta keep tunin' them all the time. Bix -- hope you join us soon! I haven't seen Tommy at all -- is he -- you-know-where? Jimmy's here, and he sure as hell hasn't seen him! Man, that Kenny G. is one LAME CAT, daddy! I couldn't believe the sh** I heard -- it's pablum! There's been alot of restless souls up here since we had that baloney piped into the elevators here!!! It used to be better when we had Mancini! Kenny G. BLOWS!

 

Date:	02-Oct-2000 21:28:21
From:	John Tesh
	I'm apologize, I thought you were talking about Kenny WHEELER, or Kenny BURRELL... Yeah, that Kenny G guy does suck butt. Sorry, John Tesh

 

Date:	02-Oct-2000 21:39:33
From:	Buddy Rich
	Hey you Goofballs!! If I had my way, i'd be playin paradiddles on this Kenny G's spongy little head! What happened to the good old days-It used to be if you didn't like the way somebody played, you gave him a couple of karate chops to the solar plexus!! Well, at least I did... You know, I would love to jam with Louis, and Bix, and Eddie and Pee-Wee, but only if it's MY band!!! Damn, would I love to chew their asses out!! Sure, they all play great, but that isn't the point-what's the good of having a band if you can't abuse your players!! I know Benny felt the same way... But back to the point-Kenny G, if you EVER do a big band album, me, Benny, Woody, and Mel Torme are going to come back and kick your ass!! Hell, I'd rather go to the other place and play in Lawrence Welk's band downstairs!! Peace, Buddy

 

Date:	02-Oct-2000 21:59:35
From:	Clive Davis
	Personnel on the new upcoming Kenny G album on Arista, "This is Our Music, Too!!" Kenny G-soprano, sopranino, soprannoccio sax Ornette Coleman-Alto sax (Violin and Trumpet on "Songbird") William Parker-Bass Peter Brotzmann-Tenor sax (Tarogato on "Songbird") Casper Brotzmann-Guitar David Murray-Bass Clarinet Anthony Braxton-Dodecacappacontralto Contrabass Clarinet (on "Songbird") Milford Graves-Drums Rob Thomas of Matchbox 20-Vocals on "Lady Madonna" Last Poets-Recitation on "Lady Madonna" Thank you all for supporting Kenny G!! Clive Davis

 

Date:	03-Oct-2000 13:36:25
From:	Dick Baker
	Number 1: the latest "John Tesh" post was done by an imposter! The earlier post was the real McCoy. Number 2: Yes, I WAS RIGHT!!!!

 

Date:	03-Oct-2000 13:41:00
From:	Gene Krupa (hooch@heavensgates)
	Hey Buddy! Lay off, you wiseacre! Still haven't changed, eh??? well guess what? Bix, Tea and the cats only dig me -- not you, fasciabruta! Next time I see you, I'm going to grab your toupee, make pierogies with them. then shove 'em down your throat! Stay away from the fellas or else! And I'm not kiddin', kiddo! -- Gene

 

Date:	03-Oct-2000 14:16:55
From:	Joel Klein (kleinsleep@havemorefuninbed.com)
	Hey! Have you heard the latest Kenny G. "Lost Episodes" CD??? It's the BOMB! Best CD I've ever heard!!!! It's a limited edition, and it's going for $50 retail, but it's worth EVERY PENNY!!! Dig this: On Tracks 1, 2, 3, 4: "I'll be home for Christmas" "Ascension" "Passion Dance" "Sun Ship" Kenny G. - Soprano, Conch Shell, Whistles, Chanting Dave Liebman - Soprano, Tenor saxes Don Cherry, Freddie Hubbard - Trumpets McCoy Tyner - Piano Christian McBride - Acoustic & Electric Basses On Tracks 6 & 7: "Beauty and the Beast" (arranged by Don Cherry) "Just the Way You Are" (arranged by Bob Brookmeyer overdubbed on the original classic) Kenny G. - Soprano Michael Bolton, Madonna - Lead Vocals Dave Grusin - Acoustic Piano Billy Joel - Electric Piano(from original recording) Miroslav Vitous - Acoustic Bass Doc Severensen, Maynard Ferguson, Don Cherry - Trumpets Dewey Redman, David Murray, Michael Brecker, Joe Lavano - Saxes Bob Brookmeyer - Trombone Andrea Marcovicci, Janis Ian - Background Vocals Howard Johnson - Tuba Jack DeJonette, Billy Hart - Drums, Percussion, Melodica Track 4, 5: "Giant Steps" "Blues on the Corner" Kenny G. - Soprano, Percussion, Conch Shell, Kazoo Rashid Ali - Drums, Percussion

 

Date:	03-Oct-2000 15:27:12
From:	Buddy Rich
	Hey Gene, They have this new thing, it's called a ride cymbal-ya' gotta' try it... Buddy

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 15:30:46
From:	Rocky Raful
	Thankx Pat U said it ALL!!!!1

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 21:13:24
From:	Gene Krupa (hooch@heavensgates.com)
	Hey Buddy! You nasty little grey-touped weasle with oversized dentures! You haven't heard my ride cymbal work??? What are you listening to, my tracks from 1931??? Schmuck! You ain't no ELVIN either, Buddy! By the way, Buddy, STOP RUSHING! Try Swinging! And stop annoying me, will ya! Gene

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 21:28:35
From:	Dick Baker (dickbakerwasright@righteousmonk.com)
	Kenny G. Blows K s kENnY g. blOwS E w Kenny N o G. N l Blows! Y B G. G. Kenny B y G. L n Blows! O n Kenny W e G. S k Blows! NO MATTER HOW YOU LINE IT UP, IT STILL COMES OUT THE SAME: KENNY G. BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Dick Baker c. 2000

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 21:32:40
From:	Dick Baker (dickbakerwasright@righteousmonk.com)
	Kenny G. Blows K s kENnY g. blOwS E w Kenny N o G. N l Blows! Y B G. G. Kenny B y G. L n Blows! O n Kenny W e G. S k Blows! NO MATTER HOW YOU LINE IT UP, IT STILL COMES OUT THE SAME: KENNY G. BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Dick Baker c. 2000

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 21:56:32
From:	Shemp Baker (shemp@dickbakersbrother.net)
	DICK BAKER WAS RIGHT Yeah, Man! Shagadelic! Dick Baker was right! Kenny G. Blows, but Metheny is a jealous goofball!!!

 

Date:	04-Oct-2000 22:19:41
From:	John Tesh
	Hello again, everyone! I AM THE REALJOHN TESH One of the previous posts was the work of an imposter! Please buy my new album, if you want to hear some burning jazz! And AGAIN, PLEASE STOP trashing Kenny! We could have a great deal of fun on this site without all the negativity! Thanks! Love and Peace, John

 

Date:	05-Oct-2000 10:29:57
From:	Gene Krupa (hooch@heavensgates.com)
	Hey Buddy! You wanna see my RIDE CYMBAL??? Here it is, pal! By the way, I SMOKED you in EVERY one of them drum battles we used to do! If I didn't get busted for that trumped-up hooch baloney, you would've been NOWHERE! I'm the one who made room for YOU, pal, and don't you EVER forget it! And like I said -- STOP RUSHING!!!

 

Date:	05-Oct-2000 10:54:16
From:	Buddy Rich (buddy@noneyabusiness.com)
	Yeah, GENE????? I'll show you rushing! You'll be rushing to the EXIT SIGN after I get through with YOU! Let's have another drum battle -- right here AND NOW!!! But you better get yourself in condition FIRST by listening to this: Then take two aspirins and call me when YOU are READY! hmmmph! -- Buddy

 

Date:	05-Oct-2000 21:29:31
From:	Slobdan Milosevic (Slobm@saddamsplace.com)
	Help ME!!! Thousands of Serbian peasants broke into my building today and, at gunpoint, forced me to listen to 11 hours of KENNY G!!! DON'T THESE PEOPLE HAVE ANY MERCY?????????????????????????????????????

 

Date:	07-Oct-2000 13:24:26
From:	Jazz Girl (noway@hotmail.com)
	For all you who think Pat Metheny is smooth... check out his duet cd with Jim Hall and think again.

 

Date:	09-Oct-2000 00:20:01
From:	JazzBeau (way@bixmail.com)
	Jazz Girl, Pat Metheny IS of the Smooth caliber. Next to Jim Hall, Metheny sounds like the lightweight that he is. Metheny somehow pops up with some of the heaviest musicians of the century (e.g., Brecker, Holland, Liebman, DeJonette, etc.), yet is not in the same league. Very strange. Kenny G. is the lamest of the lame, but as far as I know, doesn't make any pretenses. The glowing praise for Kenny G. I've seen on this board from John Tesh, Dr. Brian Sauter, and others is kind of ridiculous. But yet I believe Metheny is lower on the food chain ever since he wrote that article! http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/gimbals/banjo/body1.gif

 

Date:	09-Oct-2000 00:22:42
From:	JazzBeau (way@bixmail.com)

 

Date:	09-Oct-2000 00:33:57
From:	Sammy Burns (sammy@gotcha.com)
	Listen! I believe that both Dick Baker and Dr. Brian Sauter made valid points. Metheny's popularity has actually gone down quite a bit since the article. Dick Baker eloquently stated the whole situation in earlier posts. I'd strongly recommend that everyone here checks out all of Dick Baker's posts. Later on, Dick Baker acknowledged that Kenny. G. blows, which had not been stated as strongly in his earlier posts. Nevertheless, it is Metheny who has lost the most from this entire ordeal. John Tesh and Dr. Sauter, on the other hand, may have gone slightly overboard on their lavish praises for Mr. G., however they did manage to drive home the point that Metheny's vicious diatribe has cost him a great deal. And yes, Jazz Girl, Pat Metheny IS just another player of "SMOOTH jazz". Jim Hall is a great-grand-daddy to this tadpole!

 

Date:	09-Oct-2000 00:50:04
From:	Shemp Baker (shemp@dick_baker_was_right.com)
	I am no relation to Dick Baker, but I just wanted you all to know that Dick Baker was right. And just to prove it, I made a collection of all of Dick's posts for you, so that you will all know that Dick was right! Dick Baker is like a visionary. His posts have moved so many people, and convinced so many people about Metheny! Although, as JazzBeau stated, he later admits that Kenny G. blows, but not until he has proven a case against Metheny beyond any reasonable doubt. Ready? Here's my tribute to the incredible Dick Baker: Date: 16-Jun-2000 00:02:10 From: richard baker Kenny Werer,It figures, all the lames and homophbics like yourself would be in Pats corner.I can't picture a crazy like you digging jazz..... Date: 28-Jun-2000 04:52:09 From: richard bakerThe the pat metheny group had requested the jazz online message eliminate the essay that pat wrote.THEY eliminated the thread,but the discussion, is continuing. fEEL A LITTLE GUILT THERE PAT,A LITTLE SCARED ABOUT YOUR REPUTATION FOR YOUR SICKENING ATTACK ON KENNY G. YOU ARE A DUMBO. Date: 03-Jul-2000 04:53:07 From: Richard Baker Pat never got over the fact that Kenny recorded that duet album with Sinatra,And that Clinton invited him to the white house.Lets face it Pat he doesn't play jazz, but he jazzed your ass pretty good.Grow up.......... Date: 09-Jul-2000 22:04:30 From: Richard Baker Adam you wrote,I fully support what Pat said.Music of Kenny G.is the most primitive thing I ever listened to.Even my 7 year old son said it was shit. Adam you have my vote for "Hippest Father of the YEAR" I bet if someone should ask you ,Who Thelonius is? you would say,WHAT's HIS LAST NAME??????????? Date: 03-Aug-2000 03:57:59 From: richard baker Pat Metheny should have an early retirement.He has is know hated around the world for his blasting of Kenny G,who we all know is not anywhere musically,but did not deserve this vile attack by Pat.His only hope is a public apology,which this lame ordinary player won't do...... Date: 13-Aug-2000 01:09:51 From: Richard Baker The Pat Metheny Groupies have got to be the biggest dumbo's In the history of the music business.Don't they know this publicity stunt by the fading Pat Metheny was trying to get him in the spotlight,because his cd sales were dropping way down and as his public appearances also dropped dramatically.It didn't work. His vile essay has made him the putz of the universe.Wake up groupies,you've been taken..... Date: 03-Oct-2000 13:36:25 From: Dick Baker Number 1: the latest "John Tesh" post was done by an imposter! The earlier post was the real McCoy. Number 2: Yes, I WAS RIGHT!!!! Date: 04-Oct-2000 21:32:40 From: Dick Baker (dickbakerwasright@righteousmonk.com) Kenny G. Blows K s kENnY g. blOwS E w Kenny N o G. N l Blows! Y B G. G. Kenny B y G. L n Blows! O n Kenny W e G. S k Blows! NO MATTER HOW YOU LINE IT UP, IT STILL COMES OUT THE SAME: KENNY G. BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Dick Baker c. 2000 IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT DICK BAKER WAS RIGHT??????????????\ THANKS!

 

Date:	10-Oct-2000 08:58:31
From:	Django Reinhardt (Quintette@hot.club)
	Kenny G? Merde Alors!

 

Date:	10-Oct-2000 15:45:44
From:	Stephane Grappelli
	Django, you learned how to write!! Deez americains, they have no, how you say, class!! They just go about their way swilling milkshakes and smoking filtered cigarettes!! Eet ees no wonder to me that they like thee Kennee Gee-they would not know good music eef eet smacked them een their big, smelly, bidet-avoiding asses!!! Zut Alors!! Stephane

 

Date:	11-Oct-2000 12:37:42
From:	Kevin Tesh (kt@betchabygotcha.com)
	This board is degenerating fast! It's gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Kenny G., like jazz, is here to stay. John Klemmer's music of the 1970s paved the way for modern giants such as John Tesh, Kenny G. and George Benson. Call it "smooth" if you wish, but it is JAZZ nonetheless. John Klemmer blended the sounds of Coltrane over major seventh chords, giving jazz an entirely new dimension. Kenny and John Tesh have brought this approach to wider audiences than Klemmer would have ever dreamt possible. Bless you guys!!! All three of you!!!

 

Date:	11-Oct-2000 18:19:41
From:	Johan
	This is not America !! We all like some commercial benefits, even Pat does !! Kenny G is just not so subtil ...

 

Date:	11-Oct-2000 18:22:09
From:	Johan again
	However This is not America was a good song, and not because of Bowie ...

 

Date:	11-Oct-2000 23:38:36
From:	Johannes Sebastian Crotch
	I spent the last hour reading every post on this board. I thought Dick Baker's columns made the most sense.

 

Date:	11-Oct-2000 23:51:31
From:	Wolfgang A. Mozzarella (wolfie@kennyg_sucks_the_big_one.com)
	Dick Baker was right! Kenny G. BLOWS!

 

Date:	12-Oct-2000 13:01:02
From:	Weckl
	Buddy is old Gene is dead

 

Date:	12-Oct-2000 13:09:33
From:	G thanks
	G strings G spots If you think of gorelick it gives it a whole new meaning

 

Date:	13-Oct-2000 01:32:38
From:	Andy Kaufman (andy@whereami?.com)
	G Thanks! That was a good one!!!! Long Suck Kenny G. !!!!

 

Date:	13-Oct-2000 09:26:19
From:	victor (services@umg.org.uk)
	It is all very simple. Whatever style one plays, do it from your heart. It is much easy to be honest. Pat plays with his heart, Kenny doesn't. So, I'am for Pat. I am not angry with G or anybody else. How one can be angry with a handycap. I am angry and frankly pissed off with record industry and media who have no shame what so ever allowing people like Kenny G into musicmaking on a pro level. It is very dishonest to market players like Kenny. As far as elevator music goes, I could do without one very happily. It is our fault after all if we accept music in places such as elevators or supermarkets. Music exists when people listen to it. So, to me personally, Kenny G does not exsist really. I am simply not bothered. Thanks

 

Date:	13-Oct-2000 16:51:15
From:	Kevin Osborne (kevino@johnlscott.com)
	I have seen Pat Metheny in concert, and have two tapes I alternate in my car at present, "Letter from Home", and "Secret Story", and love his music. I am not a serious jazz fan, and have only heard the singles that Kenny G. has released and don't have the expertise to comment on the musical opinions expressed by Mr. Metheny or others on the board. But I will say I believe Mr. Metheny would have been better off going to Kenny G. directly and expressing his opinion. He would be better off now, if he hasn't done so, to go to Kenny and apologize not for the sentiment, but for the way it came out.

 

Date:	13-Oct-2000 18:06:18
From:	Michael Gardner (mgardner666@hotmail.com)
	Regarding the false complaint of Metheny's supposed "smooth" jazz... First, of all one has to differentiate between "style" and "performance". One can perform in a "style" and perform badly...the style in and of itself is NOT necessarily bad. On the surface it may appear simpler and less sophisticated but may have be also sublime. There is a difference between easy and simple. There has always been a "softer" side to jazz (this upsets all the Fusion Freaks, but oh well!)...Ellington (he still blows me away with his sophistication yet ostensibly simple and supple melodies), Ella, Louis, the list could be endless. Heck, one could even argue that Brubeck was really "bebop for white people" in the early 50's...BUT the performances were excellent...i.e. the choices of notes/melodies over chord choices (because, heck, ultimately that's all it really is all about!) were challenging to the ear, and challenging to the player to play: I don't hear that in ANY of Kenny G's performances. I never NOT hear it in Metheny. If you really are a musician, look at something like "Last Train Home" in his own songbook. At first hearing, it SOUNDS like smooth jazz. I guarantee you it is simple but harmonically sophisticated tune but most know it as the "Amtrak Ad music". It may sound appealing because of its choices of very consonant tones...but Debussy did something similar too. La Mer SOUNDS highly consonant because it is...but musically, to have to perform it?...takes real talent, real hard work, real performance. Remember, differentiate style from performance always. G is repetitive; repetitive is easy; repetitive sells because it becomes commonplace and overly comfortable. Most people in this world DON'T want to be challenged...musically or otherwise....mg

 

Date:	16-Oct-2000 22:50:53
From:	Rocco Capone (rockyc@fuggetaboutit.com)
	Listen, I've got tell you! Kenny G. REALLY, REALLY BLOWS! But that Metheny -- GOD! WHAT A MORON!!!! I guess that's what happens to your brain when you've spent too much time hanging around at Berklee playing RealBook changes! Metheny is a rank f***ing amateur, now suffering for his unprofessionalism as his career fades in a New York minute. If my Great-Uncle Al were still alive, he'd shoot the radio with his tommygun upon hearing either Metheny OR Kenny G. ! To Pat Metheny and Kenny G. -- Ba Fungul!

 

Date:	16-Oct-2000 23:04:53
From:	Emil Naytreiydte (emilionays_addiction@gotcha.com)
	Hey everybody! Did you see Shemp Baker's tribute to Dick Baker???? It was FANTASTIC! You've got to check it out. Dick Baker was definitely right, and Shemp's collection of quotes from the incomparable Dick Baker proves that he was right Dick hasn't been on this board for awhile, but I bet he'd be awfully surprised at how many fans he now has! Scroll back to Shemp Baker's tribute, read the quotes from Dick Baker and you'll see for yourself!!! Enjoy, and best wishes to all, and goodnight.