Date:	29-Sep-1998 21:42:00
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	I have two words which describe why Miles has been canonized: Talent Scout. Without Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Cannonball, Tony Williams, Dave Holland, Keith Jarrett, Dave Liebman, Mike Stern, John Scofield, Marcus Miller, Kenny Garrett, etc. ad nauseum, Miles would have been a trumpet player with a unique tone. But because he played with Tony Williams and Herbie Hancock, I listen to him butcher the head to Joshua (Complete '64 Concert -- Columbia) and basically anything at a fast tempo. Miles was just about as extroardinary as better than average lunch meat. It's good to make a sandwich with, but I'd rather have Take Out in the first place. Sorry to piss all over your parade. I will get tons of people telling me that I am an idiot. I will be listenening to Lee Morgan while reading those comments. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	29-Sep-1998 23:02:55
From:	vicki (vicki@uab.campus.mci.net)
	Paul you're right...I do think you're an idiot. I don't mean that in a bad way though. Miles was on the cutting edge of everything. Hell...he was the edge!!! I do agree he shined a light on plenty of talented musicians, but I think they became great because of Miles. His stylistic approach to every thing proved first to be a training ground and then a way of life for each of them. His influence lies not just in his playing ability but also his writing. Maybe I sound like a Miles worshipper...but what the hell!!! I hope the Lee Morgan sounds great anyway.

 

Date:	30-Sep-1998 23:08:44
From:	Bebop (car@neptune.on.ca)
	Lets face it, you take Miles out of jazz History and the music would be profoundly different today (man what a scarey thought). Hey, What do you think miles would be playing today if he was alive?

 

Date:	05-Oct-1998 18:16:15
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	What do I think Miles would be playing today? Spice Girls. The last phase of Miles' music saw him covering pop music of the day (and I see nothing wrong with that.) and being that much of today's R & B has de-emphasized melody, he would have had to turn to the Spice Girls the Backstreet Boys and Hanson to stay on that track. And I'm also sure that everyone he would have hired in his groups these days would still outblow him by leaps and bounds (after all, the more things change, the more they stay the same...) Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	06-Oct-1998 10:17:56
From:	Edo Masseurs (maynard@xs4all.nl)
	Before you "better than the rest" Americans start with your comments or critisism about Miles Davis or any other artist...how'bout showing some RESPECT first? It's sooooo easy and cheap to say bad things about someone who's dead. Even Winton Marsallis stepped on Miles's grave by saying that Miles never played Jazz. With music it's easy...you like it or not. Of course there will be people who prefer other artists but I truly don't understand why those people have to be so disrespectful. Especially after an artist has passed away. May Miles Davis rest in peace.

 

Date:	06-Oct-1998 22:09:51
From:	Bebop (car@neptune.on.ca)
	Hey Paul! What did Miles ever do to you? Man lighten up. Its just music. All he did was change. He saw something that he wanted to incorporate into his music and he tried it. After all it was his to change. This is how music grows and sometimes through taking a risk or two. Yes there was and are a lot of better trumpet players than Miles. But thats not the point. He played music that he wanted to play. He added his own personality and thoughts and yes used the talents of those around him to get his desired result. But they gained a lot from him. Its no wonder so many of them went on to become great musicians. Again I pose a question. What would jazz be like today if no one changed anything? How would the music evolve? More importantly for us listeners...What motivation would we have to go out and pick up a new CD from an old or new artist? What would be the point? Ok. So you don't like Miles. Thats alright. But you've got to give him the respect he deserves. He had the guts to change and he did'nt give a damn who did'nt like it. Miles lives.

 

Date:	07-Oct-1998 13:47:42
From:	Vicki (vicki@uab.campus.mci.net)
	That is my point exactly. Miles was the total package!! Regardless of how well you think he could play, it is his IMPACT on the genre that cannot be denied. Whether or not most people may not have agreed with the direction his music took....HIS change prompted THEIR change. Either in the same direction or in another direction, a change was still made and he deserves the credit for being the catalyst in some part.

 

Date:	08-Oct-1998 02:59:17
From:	Paul (yes, me once again) (Pabella3@aol.com)
	For those of you who think I absolutely hate Miles, I must say, I own about 90% of the albums legitamitely put out by him. I do enjoy his albums and thought he had some interesting things to say. I am by no means criticizing the fact that Miles changed with the times (if anything, I applaud him for that) and I'm not saying that he was not an innovator. What I am saying is that much of the accolades thrown on him are not his to be deserved. I cannot think of one Miles album where he didn't get blown off the vinyl by his sidemen. Yes Miles had some brilliant points in his career. But he also released On the Corner and thought it was a good album. Yes, his solo on "If I Were a Bell" was pretty, but it was Cannonball's and Trane's solos on Kind of Blue that made the album. The best songs on ESP through Files De Kilamanjaro are the ones written by his sidemen, and on Sorcerer, one of the more enjoyable moments on the album is Pee Wee, and he doesn't even play on that track. I'm sure I'll be forced to defend myself again on this subject, so till next time... Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	08-Oct-1998 09:41:02
From:	John Litwack
	This seems to be a popular line today, that Miles was a greater group leader, innovator, and talent scout, but only a so-so trumpet player. I can't fathom it. For me, the sound that Miles got on his trumpet was every bit as valuable as anything else that he contributed. Maybe Miles would have been playing "Spice Girls" now if he were still alive. But he would have made it sound damn good too. Among other trumpet players, I would suggest that only Louis Armstrong had an individuality as profound and beautiful as that of Miles.

 

Date:	09-Oct-1998 11:34:58
From:	Mark (markz@starnet.lenfest.com)
	So what if Miles was not a technically perfect musician... the man could compose, inovate, and be a mentor for so many of the musicians of today. Raise you hands those of you who think Bob Dylan has even a nice voice. Yet the effect he had on music, esp. rock & pop, is immeasurable. Miles is in this class.

 

Date:	10-Oct-1998 14:18:27
From:	Vicki (vicki@uab.campus.mci.net)
	Hey Mark, I completely agree. That's my what I've been trying to say. I can't imagine where the music would be if not for Miles' impact. It was in great part due to his innovations that the genre has gone into the directions it has gone. Oddly enough I don't think that idea occured to anyone, other than the muscians fortunate to work with him, until after his passing. I remember reading an article that stated part of the reason Miles did not play a lot of the tunes from the past that made him so great was that he couldn't hit those notes anymore. This just shows me he was the first to admit his limitations, but he moved on in spite of them because there were still avenues to be explored with the music.

 

Date:	11-Oct-1998 14:27:58
From:	Jonathan Kranz (jonkranz@kranzconnection.com)
	I think both Vicki and Paul are right about Miles. Like Vicki, I can't help but respect a musician who was on the forefront of every major movement (with the exception of Third Stream and New Thing) from 1945 onward: bebop, cool jazz, hard bop, modal jazz, fusion, etc. Whether he was the innovator behind the movements or a popularizer just ahead of the curve, he displayed an admirable willingness to leap into the new. On the other hand, there are times -- even in the middle of his most acclaimed albums -- when I wish he had just bagged the @#$%&* mute and played! (Especially his recorded solos after 1965, which often seem more about attitude and atmosphere than passion and insight.) I think of Roy Eldridge's harsh comment, "That's mouse music, man!" and think that there may some rough justice to the criticism. I also think of the many magnificent trumpeters (some celebrated, like Lee Morgan & Clifford Brown; some not nearly as famous, like Howard McGhee and Ken Dorham) who had to remain content to play in Miles' shadow, despite their greater talent. Ultimately, Davis may be the Picasso of modern jazz, a figure whose considerable artistic talents may have been equalled or even eclipsed by a genius for publicity and media manipulation.

 

Date:	12-Oct-1998 08:29:56
From:	jim smith
	Who are the Spice Girls ?????????

 

Date:	13-Oct-1998 01:43:15
From:	Paul Abella (yes it's me...again) (Pabella3@aol.com)
	There is one thing I have to give Miles, ina big way: He was eclectic. He at least gave everything a fair shake, which is more than we can say for about 95% of the jazz educators, critics and jazz snobs of the world. Miles knew people would hate Doo-Bop (his last album with Easy Mo Bee, an underrated rapper from NYC), but he did it anyways because his ears were open. I am in love with the artform known as jazz but hate many of its listeners due to their shear close minded-ness. I'm sure Miles felt the same way. I have to give him that. He was a listener. Which was his other great talent. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	16-Oct-1998 02:50:09
From:	rob (rcrave@webtv.net)
	If it weren't for Miles Davis, I would never have bought a jazz album.I have never been crazy about much of what he recorded after '65, but I can't deny his influence after that year. Starting out with Bird, then continueing with Trane, Cannonball, Mobley, Shorter--the list just goes on. For me, he popularized the muse. How many decades did Miles have to stay on top to make everyone happy? This man was in three of the greatest bands of all time. Name one person who could match his credentials. God bless you Miles, where ever you are!

 

Date:	16-Oct-1998 15:10:15
From:	Blaine Fallis (jazz.guide@miningco.com)
	I like what Joe Zawinul said when asked about the nature of Miles influence in his music. This is an excerpt from Anil Prasad's "Innerview" with Joe Z. The complete text can be found at: http://www.innerviews.org/inner/zawinul.html { AP: How did Miles influence your life? JZ: I wouldn't say that he influenced my life. AP: Many point to the work you did with Miles in the late 60s as the music that most significantly impacted your musical evolution. JZ: It is the other way around, frankly speaking. I think he got more from me than I got from him in that respect. The only difference is that I was much younger when I heard him. I was very young in 1948 when I heard Birth Of The Cool. It influenced my music, but it didn't influence my life. But music is a big part of my life. } And so it goes. Most of us always think about Miles influence, but really, it was a two-way street. Others influenced him plenty as well. Blaine Fallis http://jazz.miningco.com

 

Date:	16-Oct-1998 16:26:07
From:	Fred (Fred Madison)
	i dont know much about music. i just like to listen n let the music speak for itself. i like miles, i like lee morgan , i like freddie hubbard, clifford brown,.....i mean, there s lots of other players,.....all i m sayin is enjoy the music, if u dont get somethin else that works 4 u but forget discussions like these.

 

Date:	17-Oct-1998 18:43:48
From:	Robert Rouda
	Paul Abella. I have read your comments about Miles. Please let me assure you without any doubt or hesitation that you are full of shit. I bet your playing is as stupid as your comments.

 

Date:	18-Oct-1998 03:01:35
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	Wow. It is one thing to disagree with someone's comments. It is however an entirely different thing to start in with personal attacks against someone when they don't agree with you. Therefore, I will explain my "stupid" comments: 1) Miles was a terrible technician: This is fact. Listen to MILES. Single him out in performances. He had some brilliant ideas, but he was not always able to pull them off. Many critics of the day (I'm talking 50's & 60's here)were ruthless to him because he missed notes more often than he got them. WHEN he hit them, it sounded good, and he played the bad notes with enough confidence to make them sound pretty damn good as well, but that curt tone so many Miles fanatics scream about is what many people know as bad tone. This is why so few major trumpeters have been overtly influenced by Miles in their sound. Because it is not a good sound to strive for. 2) Miles was a far better talent scout than player: How can you argue with this one either? What made the 50's quintet was that rhythm section. Who played better than Red, Mr P.C. and Philly Joe? Throw Trane in there and as long as there's a pulse that'll sound good. The 60's quintet? Let's see here: Arguably the best drummer ever, the best modern bass player since Ray Brown, the most singularly styled mainstream pianist since Ahmad Jamal and along with Thelonious Monk, the greates composer of the Post Bop era. Did they even need Miles? Ummmm, no. Bitches Brew? This is just a few of the players on that album: Larry Young, Jack DeJohnette, John McLaughlin and Wayne Shorter. How could that album not sound good? I could continue to go on (and on and on) but the message is clear. Miles was a helluva talent scout. 3)Miles groups were shaped by his sidemen, not him: a classic example is the Kind of Blue album. Look at the tunes, their construction and their personnel. If Miles wasn't on there, it could have been a Bill Evans album, easily. Those tunes, while written by Miles, had Bill in mind, completely and totally and it SOUNDS like a Bill Evans album far more than a Miles Davis album. The Sorcerer was an album along the same lines. That album could have easily been a Wayne Shorter album and no one would have flinched. It has been my experience that those who defend Miles the most are those with very limited jazz listening experience. Those who have checked out better trumpet players (Freddie Hubbard, Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown) will agree that he was a so so player, but an excellent catalyst. Only a fool would say his groups didn't influence and push jazz in entirely new ways. To those of you (Robert, read on...) who haven't checked out enough jazz to know that Miles was not the be all and end all of jazz in the post bop era, I suggest you give a look to some of the other great players from the same era to see that while Miles was a major force in the world of Jazz, he was not necessarily the major talent everybody thinks he was. One last note to Robert and others who share his small mindedness: You should be glad that there are people like me in the world who think like this. What would the world of jazz be like if we all had the same tastes? Wouldn't it be much like the world of commercial rock music that many of you hate so much? Think of all of the commercial music that is out there that all sounds the same because everyone was influenced by the same six artists. It's not cool. So I don't see what the big deal is with Miles. So What! (to cop one of his titles...) At least I'm here digging the music. Once again, though, some idiotic jazz snob has to come by and tell me that because I don't agree with him that I'm full of shit. Isn't it much MORE full of shit to force your tastes and ideas down someone else's throat? May you and your ilk be cursed with a jukebox that plays nothing but Whole Lotta Love by Led Zeppelin. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	18-Oct-1998 13:38:31
From:	Robert Rouda
	Paul: You talk too much and think too much. You, of course, and jazz critics are far superior musicians than Miles and so naturally can judge him. Paul, you are full of shit. Shut up,man; PLEASE don't dominate the rap, jack.

 

Date:	18-Oct-1998 14:34:46
From:	Paul Abella
	I hate that this has become a forum for flinging mud. I never said I was better than anyone else or anything close to that. I am an active jazz listener and musician that has what I think are valid points. So I state them. If that makes me "full of shit," so be it. At least I can back up my statements. You just act like a little parrot saying the same thing over and over again, taking time out to quote the Grateful Dead. I'll go laugh at you now... Keep your ears open, Paul

 

Date:	19-Oct-1998 09:08:26
From:	Mark Zawadzki (markz@starnet.lenfest.com)
	Jazz Central Station has a section wherein 21 artists are asked to give recommendations. Of these, 13 artists recommended a Miles album 6 did not mention a Miles album (Bob James recommended only himself (suc humility !!!), and Diane Schuur only recommended vocalists) 2 did not do thier homework (no recommendations given) I think this speaks for itself.

 

Date:	19-Oct-1998 13:52:15
From:	Judson O. Maynard (jazzbo112@aol.com)
	I would like to agree with Mr. Abell up to a point. I do not think that Miles Davis was quite the innovator that he is sometimes given credit for. I think his greates contribution was his ability to recognize musical innovation in other peoples music and bring those people into his band to provide him with that sound. Miles was able to take what at the time were unpopular movements in music and popularize them. for example his fling with fusion. The Tony williams Lifetime was already playing fusion music with Larry Young and John McLaughlin before Miles began experimenting with it. Also the Gary Burton Quartetw/ Larry Coryell produced some fusion music on an album called Duster. Because most of this music went unnoticed at the time Miles gets credit for being innovative by hiring these musicians to play in his band. I don't want people to think that I am in any way slighting Miles Davis contribution to jazz, which is considerable, but I do think that one of MIles greates contributions to jazz was his ability to recognize innovation and bring it to a wider listening audience.

 

Date:	19-Oct-1998 15:08:50
From:	Chris (c_lowis@hotmail.com)
	I agree with all peoples comments. Miles is a hell of a better player than me, I'm on the bottom rung of the ladder so to speak. Yep players make mistakes, but, some of the best musicians that move you deeply, are not talented players (Kurt Cobain to stray outside the jazz world for a little). Mud flinging is stupid anyway, I bet Miles, Monk, Trane etc etc had shit thrown at them when they suggested controvesial things but they were clever enough to ignore/or embrace it and carry on. So take it easy. OK thats my 2p worth Modern Day Jazz Writer Chris :-)

 

Date:	19-Oct-1998 23:46:38
From:	Paul Graham (grahamp@worksafe.gov.au)
	There's probably an element of truth in everyone's comments so far.... As a person Miles was far from perfect. Not being a musician I can't comment on the technical aspects of his playing, however as a music listener I have much to thank Miles for! No, I can't imagine albums such as Bitches Brew and Kind of Blue without Miles, despite the quality of his sidemen. What I think the jazz world especially has to thank Miles for is the way that he broadened the audience for jazz by attracting listeners from both the classical and pop worlds. He did this by constantly experimenting and deliberatley attracting talented young musicians (who were honoured to be asked!) Gil Evans remarked that what he thought was the best thing about Miles was that he was always changing, but that this also put him offside with others in the jazz world. And he still attracts an audience. I'm currently converting work colleagues to jazz by showing them videos of Miles taken at different stages of his career. It's amazing to see him playing the same tunes with his legendary group in the 60s and then 20 years later in concert in Munich in 1986, with Wayne Shorter giving way to the likes of Kenny Garrett!

 

Date:	20-Oct-1998 00:51:07
From:	Bob Rouda
	Friends of Jazz: Now I don't mean to dominate the rap, Jack, but here's something to think about. Its not about notes, its about music. Its not about technique, its about art.Miles was an ARTIST. Picasso was also an artist, even though some of his forms did not display perfectly formed human figures; but we know from his early work, he was a magnificent purveyor of form.So was Miles and there was a Miles before Bitches Brew. I was able to see and hear him before some of you were born. I can only tell, for sure, that man was on another level from most of us and so was his art, his music. Its just the way he did things, the way he formed things.You can talk about art, but you really can't explain it, and certainly cannot critisize it. Art-music-just is. Why try to change or judge what's been.And, to end, you may wish to link up to the Diatribe Archives from"Birdlives" which is on the "talkin jazz" page of this web site and click ,"the death of individualism in jazz". No, I did not write that nor am I connected with it. It just says a whole lot about the idiom we all love.

 

Date:	20-Oct-1998 20:24:53
From:	Alfred Samuel
	Hey,I've never heard anyone attack Shakespeare.Didn't he run out of ideas and end two famous works identically(Othello and Romeo & Juliet)Why is an African-American icon so hard to fathom?We laud Frank Sinatra(and think,he inspired Harry Connick-ick!)Maybe if Miles were European with blond hair and blue eyes

 

Date:	21-Oct-1998 05:52:44
From:	Chris Lowis
	He wasn't hard to fathom because he was african-american but because he was a genius. Chris

 

Date:	21-Oct-1998 11:11:08
From:	Paul Abella
	Why raise the race issue? Miles can stand (or fall)on his merits on his own. First mud flinging, now race, what's next, conspiracy theories?

 

Date:	21-Oct-1998 22:29:50
From:	Alfred Samuel
	Sorry to ruffle feathers,but what I mean't was I never have heard the same criticism attributed to other artists.What new ground did Elvis Presley,Frank Sinatra,or Paul McCartney,to name a few,break in the last fifteen years of their career?Where I live PBS still shows Elvis' 68 comeback special while begging for money.Even the post office avoided the bloated final days Elvis,nor is he remembered that way.I can understand fans,critics, and society preferring a certain era during Miles' career,but to even utter than he wasn't a GREAT trumpet player is absurd.Was he the greatest?In my opinion,no,but that is not the point. Anyone that has seriously listened to Miles' recordings,live or otherwise,should know that he wanted the flubbed,cracked notes, left in the music. He didn't want it perfect. Herbie Hancock called it,"Honesty".I think that Miles should simply be remembered as great,like the other artists previously mentioned.I feel that real jazz(Monk,Miles,Trane,etc.) as an American art form is vastly underrated,but that's another e-mail

 

Date:	22-Oct-1998 14:50:12
From:	K. Starr (Kenny@noseupyerass.wow)
	It has been put to me by the Jazz Cops that Miles Davis really wasn't the great musician he has been portrayed as by various Americans. Further, it has come forward that, in fact, it was his sidemen who actually made the M.Davis recordings worthwhile. This,of course, constitutes a gross misrepresentation of talent and violation of the natural order of things and surely reason to impeach any and all M.Davis albums from sale to the American public.In addition, it is well known that M.Davis had various and sundry sexual liason in multiple parts of the globe. Therefore, my office, the Office of Independent Genital and Anal Investigation (OIGAI) requires that any person, in particular those that may have played at the side of M. Davis and certainly anyone who had better technique than M.Davis - including any sexual move that may have arisen a member of the opposite sex, surrender any article of clothing which may have had any of M. Davis' bodily fluids, whether that particular fluid is dress-come or trumpet spit. If it should be shown that M.Davis was in faqct NOT the superb artist that most people on the planet Earth purport him to be, we will prohibit any person from so much as listening to one of his albums at the penalty of prohibition of further sexual activities. This investigation will begin just as soon as I am able to dislodge my head from the ass of a well known high-ranking official. Geez, I love this job.

 

Date:	23-Oct-1998 09:47:24
From:	Mark Zawadzki (markz@starnet.lenfest.com)
	There's an historical analogy here. The settlement of the United States took place in waves :

 

Date:	23-Oct-1998 09:56:13
From:	mark zawadzki (markz@starnet.lenfest.com)
	Sorry 'bout that. As I was saying, the settlement took place in waves: - the 1st were the explorers, men who went to new places and saw new things. They burned trails, but left little or no civilization behind them. - the second were the pioneers. Recognizing what the expolorers had found, these men & women cleared the trees, broke the sod, and made things acceptable for the next wave of settlers. The thing was that this wave tended to have a high failure rate. The work to be done and the dangers were greatest at this point. - the third wave was real civilization, the you's and me's of the world. A great many would move into the space created by the pioneers, and make it mainstream. The Miles was a pioneer. Where

 

Date:	23-Oct-1998 10:02:52
From:	mark zawadzki (markz@starnet.lenfest.com)
	Crap! pressing TAB sends the message ! Sorry again. Anyway, Miles was a pioneer, and a great one at that. While he did little raw *exploration*, he followed closely behind those who blazed the trails, and hewed new stylings out of the wilderness.

 

Date:	23-Oct-1998 15:02:41
From:	Paul Abella
	Mark -- I totally agree. That's a great way of putting it.

 

Date:	26-Oct-1998 14:02:19
From:	Chris Genzel (stamil@t-online.de)
	Re. the Zawinul interview above: sorry I have to say so, but Zawinul is an idiot. He's just so convinced that he's the greatest person on earth and everyone else got only half of the talent he has. Come on, he says he invented world music, he says he brought Miles to go electric, he quotes other people saying how great a person and musician he is. I can't stand this arrogance. Again, sorry, but I had to say this.

 

Date:	30-Oct-1998 12:00:37
From:	John Litwack
	Paul A writes <listening experience. Those who have checked out better trumpet players (Freddie Hubbard, Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown) will agree that he was a so so player, but an excellent catalyst.>> It seems to me that this statement is plain and simply false. I would venture to suggest the opposite: jazz fans and musicians that know the history of the music and other trumpet players usually have an even greater appreciation of Miles playing because they are able to evaluate it for what it is: something highly original, profound, and moving. Miles could squeeze more emotion and beauty into one note than most other trumpet players in several choruses. OK, maybe Miles was not quite the technician on his horn that Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Dizzy Gillespie, or Fats Navarro were. So what? The fact remains that Miles could move souls with his trumpet playing. His approach to the trumpet was also entirely different than that of the above-mentioned musicians. It is understandable that young musicians might go through a period of worshipping only those masters with the best technique, clearest articulation at high speeds through complicated changes, least likely to hit a bad note every now and again, etc. In the final evaluation, however, what matters is not the technique itself but how it is applied, what kind of art is created with it. In that regard, Miles hit home run after home run. It would also be incorrect to suggest that Miles was not a good trumpet player from the technical point of view. In fact, I would not rate him below Lee Morgan as a technician. Lee Morgan did more grandstanding than Miles, but he was not the technician of a Clifford Brown or Freddie Hubbard either. My question is: so what? Isn't the real proof in the pudding. And Miles' pudding is always delicious. So was that of Lee Morgan, for that matter.

 

Date:	01-Nov-1998 20:01:04
From:	Robert Rouda
	Mr. Litwack: You are a purveyor of eloquence. The kid who wrote that stuff is a Jazz Punk indicative of what America has turned into: an electronic marketplace devoid of history, roots and culture.That Jazz Punk took acception to my personal attack against him. He, on another page, declared Bird and Diz to be now devoid of meaning. Yet, after 35 years of listening to these Rays of Light, Bird in particular, I continue to hear something new. These people's music will truely last forever.Yet, this punk is telling us to "keep our ears open". When I read something that smacks so intensely of stupidity, I have nothing to say but an attack on the person who wrote it. I will say that its damn decent of the guy to appreciate Ornette, but no-one but Ornette can really do Ornette. What really worries me is that we no longer have a culture. Pre-pubescents bring arms to school,electronics are making the term "book" an ancient dialect, most people working for descent money can neither interpret or answer correctly an e-mail question, brokers don't care about their clients, Jerry Springer has become such a norm that pudgy girls with bulbous legs exploding out of skirts ready to explode cannot even pronounce "whore" correctly, and the government has fallen to allowing people to examine dresses for bodily fluids. But what tells me that we are done for is that ugliness has now come to Jazz. Jazz Punks declare to be meaningless or insignificant rare presences who have brought true beauty to the twisted human soul; foundations of chords and rhythms that EVERYONE else still plays. Miles. Yeah ,man just one note, just the one way he approached it, too.Just the way he heard this world. He was Poetry, wasn't he?

 

Date:	02-Nov-1998 02:39:55
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3)
	Robert, I would rather be a jazz punk than a jazz nazi any day of the week. It was jazz punks like Bird and Diz who changed the music once, and jazz punks like Ornette Coleman and Tony Williams who changed it again and again. And if you read what I said and not what you hoped I would say, you would realize that I never said Bird and Diz were devoid of meaning, I said they MAY not be DIRECTLY relevant to today's players. The reasons for that line of thought can be found on that page for those who may be interested.(though I have to admit, after I posed that question, I went back and listened to all of my Bird again and found myself salting my foot before eating it.) My ideas may not be popular, but they are put forth after much listening. One would assume that a change of pace would be interesting to the jazz world so that we may all be pushed in new directions, but Jazz snobs like Mr. Rouda would rather see jazz turned into repetoiry music played one way by an elite group of mechanics that all think the same way rather than musicians who may approach things in a different manner. Your comment that you made stating that you had seen Miles well before many of us were born states that you are complacent to be a grumpy old man, proud of the way things USED to be done, with no respect for those who may see or do things differently, much like the writers who said that Bird failed to be of musical interest once he started playing bebop. With all of that in mind, I'm proud to be able to say I don't see the big deal about Miles' trumpet playing. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't speak to me. If that is a crime, at least it separates me from fools like you Mr. Rouda, who find it necessary to stoop to 3rd grade levels to attack those who don't agree with you. Mr. Rouda, it is because of people like you that I and many others may love jazz music but hate its listeners. It is sad that this has turned into a mudflinging mess because you are far too stupid to use the "write e-mail" function on your computer. I guess Miles' trumpet just sounds better with your head stuck so far up your ass. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	02-Nov-1998 11:37:11
From:	Bill "all ears" B.
	If you don't like miles' sound that's your problem. You miss out. Gotta get your head right, man. But, if you say he isn't a legend you are mistaken. If he wasn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Now get off the damn internet and spin some vinyl people.

 

Date:	02-Nov-1998 16:59:13
From:	Paul "the jazz punk" Abella
	That last comment brings a question to mind: why is it alright to dislike some legends (like Ornette or Wes Montgomery) and say you don't like their sound or their ideas, but it is blasphemy to dislike others (ummm, Miles for instance)? No one has said Miles wasn't a legend. He, just like anyone else is open to personal preference. I think he was a catalyst for much great jazz, and I think his groups were fantastic. I also think though that much of the accolades thrown on Miles weren't his. (i.e. writing credits on Blue in Green for starters)I have said nothing to state that Miles wasn't a great institution within the world of jazz, yet because I don't like Miles of all people, I am a jazz punk, an idiot, I'm full of shit and I know nothing about the technical facilities of trumpet players. If I said anything about a newer player, however (let's say Roy Hargrove), there's a good chance that I woudn't see a response against it. It's that kind of jazz cannibalism that makes me queasy, where we are expected to feed off of the same five or six players, with little tolerance for those who might see the pantheon of jazz differently. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	02-Nov-1998 21:19:45
From:	Robert Rouda
	Yes, your last comments about yourself strike true. I don't usually get onto these discussion lines and just try to learn from them. But, you are on every single one of these pages - over and over and over again. Nothing anyone says about any musician will affect you as you are here to masturbate your mind all over the place and not because of any other reason. I am here to tell you so because you've had your say and bled the thing rotten -yes, you're going to have the last word on all the pages, we know that. And I know that if you are as you say, a musician, you're the one who gets up there , plays chorus after chorus after chorus and listen to only what you want to say. You will single handedly change the whole course of music. You have cried because I have denegrated you while you stand denigrating the art of DEAD masters who still amaze everyone else on this board and most other places. Nothing anyone else who has been kinder than me on this board has penetrated your head, and if you read through the attempts they,ve made to explain things civilly you've just about worn the electrons off things . Its time to go away, Paul. Masturbate in private if you want, but really I think someone is paying you to say all these things or you've got one strange way of humoring yourself over the system Maybe its the strange idea of some record exec who wants to start maketing the new American evolution in music and you are his pitch man soon to be heard..Now, you get the last word, or probably it will never end with you, but it has with me. Man, I'll tell you one thing. You sure drew me into something I've never done before, but trust this: Your endless denegrations and super insights have become a drag. I would tell you the same in person and I never heard anyone but you go on about this or that jazz legend being good or bad so your last comments were very oblique..

 

Date:	02-Nov-1998 22:34:46
From:	C. Michael Bailey (cmbailey@aristotle.net)
	The All Music Guide names Miles Davis as one of the most important innovators in Jazz. The other five are Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, and John Coltrane. It is not hard for me to say that I think Miles is THE most important member of this group. I am not wild about all of the music that he played, but I do respect the impact it had. Between the first notes of his first recording of "My Funny Valentine" to the coda of "Tutu" lies the whole of jazz history from 1945 until today. There may be equal legacies, but none superior.

 

Date:	05-Nov-1998 11:02:10
From:	Ambjörn Hugardt (Hugardt@arvika.mail.telia.com)
	Ambjörn: hugardt@arvika.mail.telia.com It was very interesting and rewarding from a Swedish horizon to read the discussion about Miles Davis. Unfortunately I only heard Miles live once bur I´ve seen many concerts on TV and video. I have also heard most of his production on records and have many of them myself. I the long discussion on your page there was one aspect that I didn´t find very much represented and thats the aspect of time. From my point of view I think I have heard a lot of examples over the years when the time aspect in Miles playing is crucial. It could be the way he sets the groove in playing his solo part or just a few bars (especially in his later appearances) when I think I can hear how he brings the groove back into a mood of individual cooperation, if you can express it that way. It would be very interesting to get some commets from you people, who knows the subject so well, on this matter. Ambjörn

 

Date:	06-Nov-1998 10:15:43
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	As a drummer, I can tell you why Miles grooved so hard: space. His solos were much more spacious than those of his sidemen, and a lot of the time, not playing grooves pretty hard (evidence of this can be found in James Brown's late 60's early 70's stuff too, and no one grooved harder than James Brown)and face it, if you're not playing on every note, its a lot easier to listen and really line up every note. That's my take on it. See, I don't hate Miles. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	10-Nov-1998 12:17:38
From:	Susan Powers (iscreamalot@urfat.com)
	STOP THE MADNESS

 

Date:	20-Nov-1998 14:41:10
From:	Anthony (hoops2@geocities.com)
	Jazz without Miles (pause) I can't put the feeling in words. You have to listen to the music to understand how great he was, I'm talking about some of his tunes with Gil Evans, they were years ahead their time. Miles was a very intelligent man with multible talents Music, Painting, people skills, Please pickup ther book and read it, you'll be amazed.

 

Date:	20-Nov-1998 14:53:44
From:	Anthony (hoops2@geocities.com)
	Jazz without Miles (pause) I can't put the feeling in words. You have to listen to the music to understand how great he was, I'm talking about some of his tunes with Gil Evans, they were years ahead their time. Miles was a very intelligent man with multible talents Music, Painting, people skills, Please pickup the book and read it, you'll be amazed.

 

Date:	12-Dec-1998 16:43:11
From:	Biscuit (biscuit-14@msn.com)
	If Miles Davis had never played jazz some of the greats would be just average players. Miles got Coltrane his first soprano sax and know that is what Coltranes famous for. He also started Chick Corea playing The Electric Fender Rhodes Piano. Without Miles there would be no Jazz.

 

Date:	03-Jan-1999 05:48:40
From:	Reid Tamashiro (rtt5@gte.net)
	I think John Litwack expressed well a lot of my own feelings on that matter, but I have a few comments to add: 1) Paul, you said, "I listen to him butcher the head to Joshua (Complete '64 Concert -- Columbia) and basically anything at a fast tempo. Miles was just about as extroardinary as better than average lunch meat. It's good to make a sandwich with, but I'd rather have Take Out in the first place." Now it's cool that you don't care for Miles' playing, and Miles may not be the best technician, but calling him "luncheon meat" is uncalled for. As John touched upon, technical ability is not the only criterion to measure a person's playing ability. Thelonius Monk may not have displayed great technique like Bud Powell or Ornette Coleman may not have the same precision as Bird, but they were still great players in my book because they were original, and created moving music. The same can be said about Miles. And I don't think his technical limitations were as bad as you say, not always at least. From what I remember, his playing on bluenote, while not displays of technical virtuosity, were beautiful and technically not bad. 2)Paul Abella said, "...but that curt tone so many Miles fanatics scream about is what many people know as bad tone. This is why so few major trumpeters have been overtly influenced by Miles in their sound. Because it is not a good sound to strive for." This just seems to me like you're letting your dislike for his playing getting in the way of objectivity. There's so many musicians that have tried to sound and play like Miles. He's probably the most imitated trumpeter. Think about the Harmon mute sound. It's like anytime someone uses it, they can't get away from sounding like him. As Gil Evans correctly stated, Miles was a sound innovator. He made the trumpet sound different than before he played it, and too me that sound is beautiful. Now if you don't like this sound that's cool, but surely you can recognize that changing the sound of the trumpet is no small feat. 3) You mention Miles use of space. That was a significant that made his style original and beautiful at the same time. Not only that, but it's partly why his bands could swing so hard; his style allowed the music to breathe through his playing. I know you mentioned something like this, but you didn't seem to consider it a good part of his playing. 4) I think you also minimize his importance in the bands he played with. Miles was like a great coach; he not only got the great players together, but he knew how to put them together. Imagining Kind of Blue without Miles would be very different to me.

 

Date:	08-Jan-1999 10:48:46
From:	Frederic E. Bloomquist (frederic.bloomquist@lls.edu)
	Miles Davis was an exceptional persuasive musician in his early career and his influence was undeniably felt by many musicians and "true" jazz artists. Yet to me the biggest impact he had was NOT positive. As he aged and was more consumed by drugs and his own ever increasing egoism, he also lost sight of a very important player in American life, the I.R.S. Owing them both his ass and elbow he made a deal with the devil, or Capital Records. He would contribute to a brain child of modern marketing known as "fusion" which for all intents and purposes has fairly little to do with jazz. To the contrary it is much easier and therefore cheaper to produce, this and it's innate lack of complexity also makes it easier to mass market. His tax bill paid, and Bitches Brew bringing in millions, Miles accomplished a remarkable yet perverse feat: he diluted the purity of true non-electric, improvisational, jazz and activated a trend whereby jazz, America's greatest contribution to world art, became a hodge-podge of comparatively talentless buffoons, (Kenny G(ag), C. Mangione, Weather Report, even John Tesh). His talent and contribution to the fundamental beauty of jazz is outweighed by this sad sad effect. Now jazz equals: "Smooth" or "Fusion" or "New Age" or "Afro-Cuban" (?) none of which retain any of the musical integrity creativity or intelligence of straight ahead, real I repeat REAL Jazz. A lesson of marketers ruining a truly classic art form and obviously it really pisses me off. F. E. Bloomquist

 

Date:	08-Jan-1999 11:53:49
From:	N Burtt
	Some of the comments in this discussion make we wonder if these people really feel anything about the art form known as jazz. There are plenty of factual inaccuracies in the previous contributions, but the bottom line is that really great jazz is a thing of the moment (as with all improvised art.) You could say that the only way to really experience its full effect is in a live situation, preferably a small intimate club - that way your own feelings are tuned as close as possible to the artists. Sure, Miles played some bad and cracked notes, but he left them in his recordings. Why? Because the music he created as a "whole" outweighed the few "mistakes." His later albums could easily have used the technology of the day to edit and correct the "mistakes", but he didn't. Coleman Hawkins said of a slip in his solo on Max Roach's "We Insist" that he left it and didn't go for another take to try to get it right because anything that emotional just should not be perfect. That should speak volumes to anyone with a passion for this art form. Sure, Miles could be considered a vampire in that his music and ego fed off new young blood artists on the scene - but he was just as proud to show off their capabilities as to talk about how great "his" new band was. Everyone who worked with him, Zawinul included, loved him and still love him despite his faults as human being. Maybe they did Miles a lot of good, but it did not do any of their careers any harm either. Sure, some of the music he created does not contribute significantly to the history of the form, but when you create this music consistency is a rare thing and true moemts of beauty and genius have to savoured all the more.

 

Date:	24-Jan-1999 17:26:06
From:	Ann O. Nomous
	Reid Tamashiro: Don´t worry about Paul. He's a drummer...he says. Bash,bash,bash. Anyone want to hang out while a basher practices?...or bashes other people? Frederick Bloomquist: I didn't know taxes were a relavent influence on the making of music. Anyway, try reading Miles' autobiography and less IRS reports and you may actually understand more of Miles davis. Taxes? Holy satchmo, man.

 

Date:	28-Feb-1999 13:21:16
From:	Peter Lester
	I have scanned through the comments good and bad about Miles and I say everyone has a right to say how they feel but I get a lot of pleasure from the albums I have including Kind of Blue. It`s obvious the contribution that all other musicians made to the recordings but a leader is required for a group and it happened that Miles was there. I know he has critics and I read his biography with difficulty, mainly because of the language content, but as it states, this is in his own words. I was sorry that I never managed to catch him in concert. To change the subject, I recently saw D

 

Date:	28-Feb-1999 13:22:47
From:	Peter Lester
	I have scanned through the comments good and bad about Miles and I say everyone has a right to say how they feel but I get a lot of pleasure from the albums I have including Kind of Blue. It`s obvious the contribution that all other musicians made to the recordings but a leader is required for a group and it happened that Miles was there. I know he has critics and I read his biography with difficulty, mainly because of the language content, but as it states, this is in his own words. I was sorry that I never managed to catch him in concert. To change the subject, I recently saw Dave Brubeck in concert and he was brilliant.

 

Date:	05-Mar-1999 09:43:37
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	I haven't commented on this thread in months. I think now is a good time to come back to it. I have, since my last posting, started listening to Miles a little more closely. I thought "gee, if all of these people say I'm wrong, I might very well be wrong." So I listened again. This is what I found... Reid -- I agree with you on a lot of points. That yes Miles' playing wasn't technically perfect but yes, it did say something. That his playing with a (half a) harmon is his and his alone. That much of the music created under his name was brilliant. Now to tell you why you need to listen to more jazz... Miles had beautiful solos and touching moments. but Kenny Dorham and Booker Little had them too, with not nearly as many missed notes and mental misfires. You say you can think of plenty of musicians overtly influenced Miles Davis. And I agree, there are plenty of musicians influenced by his music. But I can only think of two trumpeters who tried to get his sound: (early) Wynton and Wallace Roney. Most other trumpeters seem to shoot for Clifford Brown or (God forbid) Maynard Ferguson in their sound and approach. Of course, every jazz musician and quite a few musicians from other forms have been influenced by Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew, You're Under Arrest, etc, etc, etc. But I don't see too many people going after his sound consistantly. And, yes, I do agree that practically everything he released between th years of 1954 - 1972 was absolutely brilliant. But come on, you think that with guys like Tony Williams, Keith Jarrett, Larry Young, John McLaughlin, Sonny Rollins, Jackie McLean, Philly Joe Jones etc ad nauseum, that it would sound bad? All they had to do was pick up their instruments and it was already swingin! And my comments on Miles' use of space were very positive. It is something we should all strive for. Case in point, the Keith Jarrett Standards trio. Now, Is Miles' playing better than I gave him credit for? of course. But there are also plenty of examples of him too coked out of his mind to play well. (Round Midnight, Plugged Nickel box set is a good place to start. So is the version of Pfrancing on there.) It's one thing to miss an occasional note, but there were times where he'd go on strings of them, and it hurt my ears badly. For that, he doeserved a kick in the butt from someone. That someone is me. As for Ann: You are obviosly not even a musician, because a jazz musician with any sense of beauty would realize that the bash bash bash drummer is not playing jazz. I'm sorry, but I'mright up there with everyone else on the bandstand trying to make music and I am deeply offended by that kind of remark. It goes to show how silly many so called jazz listeners really are. Keep Your Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	26-Mar-1999 10:41:28
From:	Justin
	Paul, First of all, I disagree with you completely. Secondly, I think it's shameful that some people would choose to turn this harmless discussion about musical tastes into a personal attack. You don't deserve that kind of treatment for offering viewpoints that, although unpopular, you are certainly entitled to have. Having said that, lets get ready to rumble... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT (just kidding) I certainly agree with you that many other trumpet players (e.g. Booker Little) had plenty of artistic brilliance that is almost always overlooked. In fact, when I first started listening to jazz, I didn't understand what all the fuss was either. Freddie was cleaner, Lee was funkier, etc. But, as my understanding of this art form grows, my appreciation of Miles increases. He was a true original. I think his music is some of the most emotionally compelling of this century. Can I explain it from a technical aspect? No. I just know that his albums, and his playing are very important to me as a jazz listener. Let's talk about the technique question for a second. Is it possible that other trumpet players didn't emulate Miles' technique because it was to difficult? I'm a trumpet player, and I think it's much easier to get a Clifford 8th note vibe than to play like Miles. It's hard to duplicate the emotion that Miles put in every note. (No offense Clifford, your one of my favorites)

 

Date:	30-Mar-1999 01:54:53
From:	Alfred Samuel
	Well put,Justin. Paul,maybe you need to go back and listen to the three or four Miles cd's you own.Even better,buy a different one.As for the Plugged Nickel sessions,Miles was laid up for a great deal of time prior to those sets. Miles was a great team player who made everyone around him better.Not to knock John McLaughlin or Ron Carter,but nane three discs by one of them.Miles got the most from the talent around him. Many never came close to the potential that Miles brought out. Paul,when are you going to open your heart? We aren't waiting. A.Samuel

 

Date:	10-Apr-1999 06:59:13
From:	Peter (-)
	I simply don't understand how people can say Miles was crap. Maybe its jealousy, maybe because he is over-exposed. But he is overexposed for a reason. He was a genius, a Mozart of his day if you like, he touched upon/invented so many different styles of music its incredible. And Í believe Miles is/was responsible for atracting loads of listeners to jazz (me for example). People say he did bad things as a person sometimes, but that doesn't affect the music. 'Nuff said Peter.S Sweden

 

Date:	12-Apr-1999 16:43:35
From:	Greg Edwards (gedwards@interlink.com)
	Miles was on the cutting edge of Jazz for many years. How much was innovation and how much was reflection, it's a matter of interpretation. I see three marked changes in Jazz where Miles was at the top of his game: bebop, cool, and fusion. And while other players were as influential during bebop (Trane, Mingus) and fusion -- a guitar oriented music (Mclaughlin, Coryell), Miles was the chief orchestrator of the Cool Jazz movement. His album, "Kind of Blue" introduced the world to a new form of modal music. Miles ability to bring up young musicians with new ideas and mold them into creative forces was his greatest strength.

 

Date:	27-Apr-1999 15:57:23
From:	PETE
	I GUESS BIRD AND ALL THE OTHERS WHO LIKED MILES (COLEMAN HAWKINS,DIZZY,ET.AL. ARE JUST AS STUPID.I RMEMBER A SIGN IN A MUSIC STORE IN LA. THE SIGN READ "GO HOME AND PRACTISE, SHMUCK!

 

Date:	30-Apr-1999 02:26:19
From:	C. Glatzel (carlg@bantudesign.com)
	Justin: I'm with you, man! Hubbard, Morgan and Baker are all great trumpeters. Hell, they're giants! But none have had the influence on music, fashion and lifestyle as Miles. It's evident in his music, in his person... his style. He was truly a genius. Moody, dark, mysterious and morally objectionable. One man that will be recalled by millions eons from tod

 

Date:	08-May-1999 02:12:44
From:	Trudy
	I don't mean to be too rude but how many of Miles Davis compositions were actually penned by Miles Davis? Since he put his name on a Bill Evans composition (see "Kind of Blue") which Evans talks about in liner notes on one of his albums, and Davis also has been named the author of "Solar" when it was in fact a Chuck Wayne composition (see Mark C. Gridley's "Concise Guide to Jazz") the question becomes who else did he "borrow" from? How extensive would the Miles Davis "borrowed" list be if compiled? . . . Nice guy.

 

Date:	08-May-1999 02:23:56
From:	John Travis
	Hey, Miles Davis was a good player, a great band leader, an innovative mind, and yes there were better players, but he did what he did and it was quality. Bill Evans said he didn't start out as a good player but later became one. I'll take that opinion. He was a distinctive player - anyone can recognize him in a minute - that's having a distinctive style - no small accomplishment. Miles was no demi-god. He wasn't even a very nice human being from what many say, but jazz is better for having him around.

 

Date:	08-May-1999 02:34:08
From:	charles taylor
	Do some of you take your dumb pills before sitting down to type your opinions? The guy was a good musician - but the heavens didn't part when he put his lips to the trumpet. Go buy a few Clifford Brown CDs and play them alternately with some Miles Davis recordings and get a little perspective. The Church of Miles Davis is ridiculous. The Church of Elvis Presley is ridiculous. Dumb comes in all colors. Get a life.

 

Date:	08-May-1999 09:24:48
From:	Willie B.
	Why do people need to worship Miles Davis? Why do people need to worship other people? Whatever happened to Pee Wee Herman?

 

Date:	08-May-1999 12:30:43
From:	Sandra
	The gift of smooth jazz, of fusion, of funk jazz??? If the latter day junked out Miles Davis is supposedly responsible for these styles then we should be praying for the sick soul that descended from "Kind of Blue" and "Birth of the Cool" to fashion jazz. Innovation? I think it's sad - a vivid testament to what drugs can do to even a great talent.

 

Date:	12-May-1999 22:05:48
From:	Samuel O'Connor
	Miles did become a very good trumpet player. Who could mistake his sound? Anyone who can hold their own with Coltrane, Adderley, and Bill Evans as a soloist (in "Kind of Blue")has to be one heck of a trumpet player. Come on, give the guy some credit. There IS a lot not to like about the guy, but he was a tremendous band leader, and a significant trumpet player (and yes, I do admit there were better trumpet players but so what - did they have Davis' range - band leader, composer, arranger, innovator?). Credit where credit's due. Get past the hype.

 

Date:	20-May-1999 00:01:25
From:	Dat
	Its a good thing that Miles never listened to critiques like yours....Jazz is not ALL about technique..no wonder many of you have remained so-so musicians, regardless of years of coaching....And you wonder why he was able to bring out the best in collaboraters...I pray that at least you all become better listeners of the ARTform .... dat

 

Date:	20-May-1999 11:39:47
From:	Jon
	DAT: who said it was all about technique? And nobody but Miles plays with emotion? Technique has nothing to do with being able to convey emotions? Granted, there often is an overeliance on technique by immature musicians, but certainly Miles didn't ignore the technical aspects of playing the trumpet.

 

Date:	20-May-1999 12:37:41
From:	Raymond
	As a so-so musician myself, I reviewed the line-ups on all my CDs and albums and did NOT find a musician named DAT. Perhaps in our midst is an undiscovered genius? From reading this thread you'd think Miles Davis was this ignorant emotive trumpet player untouched by technique. And you'd think Clifford Brown was a cold, mechanical player with more technique than is good for any human being playing jazz. I'm sorry but neither of these simple minded images hold up. Both Brown and Davis were emotional players who developed their technique to play what they felt needed to be played. Both were marvelous musicians - and certainly weren't the polarized extremes that they have been caricatured thus far in much of this thread. Brown unemotional? Davis a technical simpleton? Not by my ears.

 

Date:	20-May-1999 18:35:36
From:	Sandra McConnell
	DAT: Lee Morgan Chet Baker Roy Eldridge "Sweets" Edison Cootie Williams Buck Clayton Clark Terry Henry Allen Louie Armstrong I believe these people played with emotion. It wouldn't be difficult to extend this list. Some of these guys play/played with a whole lot of technique too - emotion and technique are not mutually exclusive are they? How much technique is too much technique?

 

Date:	20-May-1999 23:30:49
From:	Pano
	All your talk about technique and emotion and who's a better this and who's a better that!! My head is swimming! Don't you realize that Miles is like the saint tied to the tree with all those arrows shot into him. Jazz's martyr!! Shoot all you want but THE SPIRIT LIVES!!!!

 

Date:	21-May-1999 22:31:13
From:	Beatty
	So, Miles Davis walks into a deli and says: "You got any food for trumpet players here?" Deli owner says: "This is a deli. We don't serve trumpet players here. Now get out of here, please. Three hours later, Miles Davis returns to the same deil and says: "You got any food for trumpet players here?" Deli owner says: Look, you have been here before and I told you then, we don't serve trumpet players here." Same scene repeats itself three more times. Finally at the last visit, the deli owner, now exasperated, says: "Look, I'm sick of you. You come back here one more time and I'll fill your trumpet with kerosene and light it ablaze." Miles Davis returns a final time. He asks: "You got any kerosene here?" Deli owner says: No, you idiot trumpet player, we don't have kersoene here; this is a deli, not some fuel plant!" Miles says: Good. Now you got any food for trumpet players here?"

 

Date:	22-May-1999 22:18:50
From:	Wendy P.
	When the angels put together the program for the celestial choir they go to Miles for advice. I know, my angel told me. Miles is still in limbo, and not heaven - that's what I hear. He was a bad boy at times, but he looks real cute in those celestial robes!! (that's what my angel says, who's a little sweet on Miles)

 

Date:	24-May-1999 10:49:32
From:	Wendell Arnold
	Hey, did Miles ever play the tuba?

 

Date:	24-May-1999 11:48:12
From:	Max DeLucas
	No, Miles tried but was unable to produce any sound whatsoever from the tuba. It is a known fact that only the most technically proficient trumpeters can play the tuba. The tuba is tough, man.

 

Date:	26-May-1999 04:18:37
From:	Dat
	At no point did I say that any of the artists in the list you gave had no emotion...Neither did I say that emotion & technique were mutually exclusive...just goes to show how carefully you read what I said....I simply stressed that it is not also *ALL* about technique...read what I write please..& do not put words in my mouth... And for some of you who cannot avoid doing this..Note that I have not even said that Miles was the Greatest (in my opinion he isn't)...But that does not mean that because he didn't have the same level of technique as all the artists you mentioned he was not as good a jazz musician or even better than some with BETTER technique.... And ooh, while I may not be on any CD (yet or even ever)...I have not gone ahead to make statements regarding an artist who sold so many CDs and with whom many notably, better than many of you, were happy to collaborate with inspite of his "lousy" trumpet playing...they must have seen something positive to the art form in doing so... To quote Freddie Hubbard "Jazz Times April 1999", - "Lee Morgan and I really liked each other. You know AT ONE TIME he was bigger than Miles when Sidewinder came out. I used to follow him around. I went out and bought me a sportscar like he had, drive down by Birdland. Miles was looking at us. Lee had it, man. But he did not know how to take care of it. He was a brilliant cat when I first met him. He had brilliant tone. He could play fast stuff. I could never play that stuff but Lee could do it... Lee Morgan was brillant, but I had maybe a little more hippness going on, for playing the chord changes. But he had the soul, that got to the people. It used to make me mad, because no matter how good I played, he'd play one good lick and the people would go crazy...." So I do understand how you guys feel, when like Freddie felt about Lee, you find that people went crazy about Miles possible without as much talent (at least technically)...but then thats what jazz is about improvisation MORE than perfection (Now do NOT say that the 2 are mutually exclusive!!)... This is certainly NOT "your" Classical music .... dat (of doubtful technique & still looking for his 1st gig & a recording label from one of you :-(

 

Date:	26-May-1999 08:50:05
From:	Raymond
	Since you're refining what you previously said - what many said "lousy?"

 

Date:	26-May-1999 23:33:39
From:	Dat
	Raymond, You certainly seem to have a problem with reading what I write... Note that I take care to use quotes on my "lousy" a very subjective word & which I believe everyone (including myself) is using subjectively...but this is not an English lesson... Anyway, to qualify (& also note that I didn't say that *many* even had the opinion)...the man at the head of this discussion link & to whom I reacted... hot drummer, Paul says (at various times):... -I quote: "Miles was a terrible technician. This is fact..." "Miles was just about as better than average lunch meat...its good to make a sandwhich with, but I'd rather have "Take Out" in the 1st place" "I'm still sure that everyone he'd have hired in his group these days would still outblow him by leaps & bounds..." "This is why so few major trumpeters have been overtly influenced by Miles in their sound...Because it is not a good sound to strive for...' Some remarked on: "...So-So player.." "Not quite the technique" "throw that **$#@ mute.." And this seems to be the basis for most of the grief you have...this "not quite the technique" Anyway, I will not burn more bandwidth since it appears that some of you have "other" problems that I would not possibly be able to address...I mean what can I (or even Raymond) do about the fact that Lee Morgan was not as appreciated (by many) as or even more so than Miles? ...Nothing... And it does not bother me.... Just go ahead & listen to what you feel is good jazz music to you, instead of spending time on that kind of stuff... My take on this is simply that many people (including those many on this list) appreciate Miles & his contribution to Jazz... Whether that is "iconizing" the guy well thats not important to me...All I can say is that he has a place in the history of jazz... regardless what you or anyone says.. Like any musician Miles has his great recordings & not-so-great recordings ...All you have got to do is pick what you liked or even don't bother.. This talk of so & so being "better" is always going to be very subjective, but it gets even worse when people zero in on a perceived flaw (that according to some led to a sound not to strive for) that contradictingly drew many people to the same artist. And since this argument seems an obsession with some, who feel that they have "won" whenever they have the last word, at this point, I'll agree to "lose" this one with what I have said in the my 3 postings... dat

 

Date:	27-May-1999 00:45:29
From:	Derrick Smith (dasmith@iei.net)
	While DAT has made some questionable comments here, I have to say he's not nearly as polarized and competitive regarding jazz icons as are some of the other people in this discussion. This is not an acidic attack, though, because just the fact that we're talking here is hopeful, considering what we could be doing. Of course, we could be doing better things, but what the hell. You've all made intelligent, apt comments, and I'm hoping to add a few of my own. Can't Miles Davis and Lee Morgan and Clifford Brown and all the rest...can't they all be considered heroes of a sort? Wait, strike that "h" word. In music there are no heroes as we know them. There's no bloodied martyr with a shredded flag. As I get older and hear more and different kinds of music, I realize that there is so much fantastic, valuable music, enough to shame me for ever giving into the Don King-like urge of pairing off two trumpeters and ensuring that my player beats the other to a pulp, for my own pro(ph/f)(e/i)t. Miles laid down enough music, really more than enough, for anyone to enjoy and learn from. If you don't like him, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as you respect him for his purely artistic achievements. I hate to sound preachy, but this respect is integral, and all the jazz artists mentioned in this discussion deserve it. I feel like I should say more, but I think this is a pretty simple truism: the world is teeming with creativity: past, present, future, fulfilled, potential, realized, becoming.

 

Date:	27-May-1999 14:13:27
From:	Sam O.
	In interesting question here is why does Miles inspire a brawl? The other threads on this site seem to be much more even keeled - why does this one heat up so fast?

 

Date:	31-May-1999 16:25:44
From:	W.L.
	The modern world lacks a spiritual connection to life which is expressed in a lack of appreciation and gratitude. Miles had his problems and faults, but he did leave us with much to appreciate and to be grateful for.

 

Date:	27-Jun-1999 14:51:16
From:	Edna
	Amen.

 

Date:	08-Jul-1999 16:22:47
From:	tobias_brathwaite (tbrathwa@cablevision.com)
	DIZZY GILLESPIE ONCE SAID OF MILES, HIS MUSIC NEVER REALLY CHANGES. His surrounding musicians and the genre of the music did but his licks were basically the same from what ever Miles era you listen to. If you study Miles as I have you will find that this is basically true. CAN MILES PLAY FAST AND HARD LICKS? Just listen to his early work with Dizz and CP. I grew up with nothing but Jazz from my dad and I hated Jazz. After maturing however the person who first attracted me to Jazz was Miles, the Album, Kind o' Blue, thats right! I then spiraled out from that album, John Coletrane , the Cannon, Wynton Kelly and so fourth. Following this path has led me to a collection of Jazz vinyl well over 1,000 records strong incl. Debut Miles. WAS MILES THE GREATEST JAZZ MUSICIAN OF OUR TIME? Probably not (Duke!, Satchmo?) but his body of music is a great way to introduce non interested people to Jazz as well as a great path to a higher musical consciousness. While on this road you will meet many other artists and take other road tangents but you will owe it all to Miles.

 

Date:	15-Jul-1999 21:29:37
From:	Anthony (hoops2@geocities.com)
	Miles Davis :) If there were no Miles, so many Jazz Greats would gone un-recognized, people such as, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Cannonbal Adderly, Herbie Hancock, Gil Evans (Never got the recognition he deserved) and maybe even John Coltrane. Miles Davis had a talent for combining good talent that would turn out to be some of the hottest bands of their times. What Miles did these guys was years ahead of its time. Miles was reaching for something different each time he made a recording, he actually reinvented music dozens of times. Kind of Blue (My personal favorite is "So What"), Porgy & Bess, Birth of the Cool, E.S.P., Nefertiti, Bithces Brew, Tutu. With each one of these Albums (this is what they were called during that time) Miles gave you a new flavor, from Bebop to Smooth. Now you can say a lot of good things about Jazz Greats but you can't say that with each recording they were giving us a new flavor of Jazz. Miles was a musical phenomenon

 

Date:	15-Jul-1999 21:32:13
From:	Anthony (hoops2@geocities.com)
	Miles Davis :) If there were no Miles, so many Jazz Greats would gone un-recognized, people such as, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Cannonbal Adderly, Herbie Hancock, Gil Evans (Never got the recognition he deserved) and maybe even John Coltrane. Miles Davis had a talent for combining good talent that would turn out to be some of the hottest bands of their times. What Miles did these guys was years ahead of its time. Miles was reaching for something different each time he made a recording, he actually reinvented music dozens of times. Kind of Blue (My personal favorite is "So What"), Porgy & Bess, Birth of the Cool, E.S.P., Nefertiti, Bithces Brew, Tutu. With each one of these Albums (this is what they were called during that time) Miles gave you a new flavor, from Bebop to Smooth. Now you can say a lot of good things about Jazz Greats but you can't say that with each recording they were giving us a new flavor of Jazz. Miles was a musical phenomenon

 

Date:	24-Jul-1999 00:00:14
From:	Alice
	Boola Boola

 

Date:	01-Aug-1999 17:08:30
From:	Saul L.
	I listen to Miles Davis and enjoy the music. I especially enjoy the chemistry of the bands - how well the players interact and listen to each other. For Davis to have gone through as many bands, and for all of them to have sounded so tight is a pretty amazing accomplishment. Whatever one wants to say, he was a first rate judge of talent and a first rate band leader. And the music still holds up nearly a half century later - not bad, I'd say.

 

Date:	04-Aug-1999 13:41:20
From:	Donatello
	My Miles can beat up your Miles, any day. Hah!

 

Date:	11-Aug-1999 20:37:55
From:	Si
	Grow up Donatello - your world will be a better place, so will ours.

 

Date:	13-Aug-1999 00:40:45
From:	Paul Abella (Pabella3@aol.com)
	(cracks the knucles before writing his tirade...) I found the quip about me owning only 3 or 4 Miles CD's quite amusing. For the record, I own everything legally released between 1956-1972, as well as a few of the post comeback things. I've heard it all. Therefore, I can comment on it all. To reiterate my stance, I am a fan of Miles' music. I just think that his OWN contribution to that music is highly overrated and that there are far better trumpeters out there. So the ears are open. Now for the heart... The heart is open. When I hear Miles, I hear great music. When I hear Eddie Harris at his peak, I feel it. I want to jump out of my chair. When I hear Miles, I hear some stuff that makes me think. When I hear Ornette, My gut churns in some happy way that in no way can I explain. When I hear Miles, I hear a guy who really put a lot into his music. when I hear Mingus, I get a lot out of his music. As for the thing about Miles being laid up before the plugged nickel, Roland Kirk was blind and still played the hell out of his horn. After he had a stroke, Boogie Woogie String a Long for Real was still great. Considering he only used half of his body, it's completely amazing. Miles could have at least stayed off the coke long enough to get Round Midnight right. Keepin' the Ears Open, Paul

 

Date:	16-Aug-1999 13:52:39
From:	Sal
	Who is Miles Davis?

 

Date:	18-Aug-1999 19:11:57
From:	Kim
	Sal, he's like a big deal jazz musician - read the thread!

 

Date:	18-Aug-1999 22:44:25
From:	Roger Gibert (hipjazzfunk@yahoo.com)
	Its what Miles didn,t play, as much as what he played that made him what he was. It was the spaces it was the timing, and the feeling (spiritual). He would laugh his ass off at the way your all carrying on.

 

Date:	26-Aug-1999 10:35:37
From:	Scoop
	Robert Rouda was right about Patricia Acapella. Having read his repeated comments i have begun to tire and get bored by his repetitons on every subject on these pages. I feel for Mr Rouda, he seemed to be personally wounded by Acapella's repeated attacks. 'Don't dominate the rap, Jack' couldn't be more appropriate. After all, what does Mz Acapella really know about art? And another thing! If Acapella is so clever, how come he ain't a professional critic instead of being a cyberspace tosser? He could use up some of that spare time he has on his hands and make a living slagging off people instead. Am I right? So c'mon aracapuca baby, let's mix it up a bit huh? Feel like taking on someone with a bigger record collection than yours baby? Sincerely, Fed up with reading your comments all over the place

 

Date:	28-Aug-1999 08:54:41
From:	Vee
	Since this thread seems to have run out of useful things to say - check out Ted