Rebecca Martin: Paradox Of Continuity

AAJ: It seems to me you write about some of that stuff in your new songs. And in some of your songs on People Behave Like Ballads there are some references to religion. You don't specify—well, there's one tune where you specify a certain religion but you seem to be getting at it in a more general sense.

RM: Right, yeah—"If Only. I guess my question is if you can believe in heaven or hell without ever experiencing heaven or hell, [with it being] only something that's written—and I don't mean to disrespect any of that, I don't—then why is it so hard to believe in maybe something more incredible? Or maybe nothing? I don't mean to sound like an atheist either because I believe in something. But I don't think that whatever it is is something that we can totally understand.

I mean, I birthed and I enjoyed my birth and it was hard work. But there's so much of that day that I don't remember. Which is typical. A lot of women say that. But the feeling was something I'll never forget. And the things that I don't remember I almost imagine as, well, I actually touched base with something so massive. Like all the secrets I had to get in touch with in order to be open and allow my son through. But it's not meant for me to hold onto in this life day to day. I just think that the possibilities are endless and massive and fun to think about. I'm not afraid of thinking about those things.

I'm also not judging anybody for not thinking about those things by maybe simplifying the way that they live. Everybody needs different things. I do get upset about judgment. I think people judge and forget that nobody knows. Nobody knows. So anybody's beliefs really are personal and important and everybody should be able to have whatever they need to get through their days without being judged or criticized. I don't like that at all.

AAJ: The idea of nobody knowing is important for me as well. I think that comes out in your writing too. A lot of these [new] lyrics and some of the stuff on your Ballads record are open-ended.

RM: People say, "there's so much ambiguity in your lyrics. [But] it's because I don't know. Who knows? I can only try to describe to you an experience that I had, or several experiences that I've had, and more about the feeling that I had. That's the important thing to me.

AAJ: Not locking down a specific meaning or really literal thing in the writing for me is usually positive. It gives the listener more doors to enter. They can think what they want. It can mean something different to a lot of different people.

RM: To me that's really important because if I'm going to be a songwriter then my goal is to allow the meaning to go out so you can interpret it. I don't want to tell you about my day or my plane ride to the gig. I have nothing to say in that way that is of interest to anybody. I really want people to have an intimate experience that's unique for the people who are interested. Not everybody gets what I do at all; at least not yet anyway. It's not meant for everyone. But the goal is allow the meaning to go out so that you can get something from it.

AAJ: Well it's definitely not for everybody. This may sound a little rude but I think a lot of people may want to be lead by the hand, in terms of experiencing art like film, books, or music. It's not easy, for maybe even most people, to try to invest some real energy from themselves into what they're listening to or watching.

RM: But in general, and again I don't know if this is totally true, but my feeling is that if people think that way then having structure and control is how people feel comforted. If you have to get out of that comfort zone, for instance, if you have to go out and start really seeing what's happening outside of your own existence, start feeling the suffering and the unbelievable things that are going on in the world, you could really lose your mind. So I think in order to survive people keep to themselves very much within themselves. I understand that.

But eventually, that doesn't save you. That doesn't protect you from dying. Inevitably, you're going to die and you're going to experience death. So no matter what you create to keep yourself safe from it, or from seeing it, or from any sort of thing that you deem as difficult, you face it someday. So to try to cut it out of you doesn't seem to be the goal really. To incorporate everything, all of it: all your fear, letting go, having trust, and enjoying the things that you have and are faced with and are learning. I really think that your life can be incredibly fulfilled and happy if that's what you're looking for.

And again, happy is another thing, or sadness like I said earlier, you've got to be careful of these words because they represent things that are very strong. As soon as you hear something's happy then that's the way you experience it. As soon as you hear something's sad then that's the way you experience it. So you've got to be careful so that people can experience things in their own way.

There are certain Joni Mitchell records that I haven't been able to get with. Then a few years later I put them back on and just in that moment it was the right time and that music just penetrated and moved me and changed a certain way of thinking as a writer, as a fan, as a singer. Whatever the case is. So not everything that's created [comes at you at the right time]. Things can come around. You could be more ready to talk about dying, for example, or real things, at another time in your life. I like to think that if people are in the mode of control, then that's where they are now. And everybody has a level of that kind of need to control. Even the most evolved people I'm sure are dealing with that issue. So you can be Buddha and I'm sure you're dealing with a certain control thing at some point in your development.

AAJ: So, about your new songs and your next record. Do you know who else is going to be playing on it?

RM: This new record is going to be really creative and fun. Larry will [playing]. I don't know who the drummer will be yet.

AAJ: Will Peter Rende be playing? I read that you feel he's pretty integral to the stuff you've been doing.

RM: He is. He's similar to my co-producer to me in terms of how he approaches the music and creates a beautiful vibe around the songs. But I'm not sure. Right now I'm in the process of finding a deal and deciding which label to go to and getting that stuff ironed out. We're not going to record this until May. We'll probably start talking about that stuff concretely in February. Right now I'm just getting the business shit out of the way.

AAJ: I'm looking forward to your next record. I don't think I have any other records with Peter Rende on them. I hadn't heard of him before, but on Ballads his sound is great. He creates a really warm vibe. It's kind of like the vibe on Middlehope, warm and big. He uses a lot of different instruments too, like that pump organ. Very creative instrumentation.

RM: We did a similar thing that I'm going to do with [my friends] for my next record, which is [they] came up to my house and stayed with me for a week. We set up the living room with instruments: slide guitar, pump organ, piano, and everything you can imagine. It was mic'd pretty poorly and just threw everything up then took all the basic tracks and just pulled more music out. Pete is instrumental in that. To me that last record is only as good as the musicians on it.

I think a record is only as good as the sum of its parts. I've been so lucky. I've got great musicians and great engineers. It's forever. You've got to do that. You've got to go in there and do it. I'm proud of these records, even my early ones, because of the players and the choices we made. I'm proud of every one of them. I've no regrets on any of the records and the amount of time I had to do them in.

AAJ: I haven't heard Thoroughfare, but I'm assuming that one is more in the singer/songwriter vein?

RM: Thoroughfare is similar to Ballads in that they're original songs. That's the difference. And there is a difference actually the more I go along and see how I interpret my own songs versus other folks' tunes. It's very different. I think I do sing differently. I don't know what that's about. [Maybe] it's because of the guitar. Having another element that I've got to think about. I sure do like the freedom of just singing and not having to play an instrument.

But to me playing an instrument is so important because otherwise what's written harmonically, if you don't play it [the voicing of the chord] in the way that you want it... see, this is another problem with naming things. If you have a chord that sounds similar to something, like an E minor, but actually there's a sharp seven and all this other stuff in there. It's a pain in the neck to write all this stuff out but if you don't then you miss part of the chord that gives you more information to use to make choices in what you play. That's the trouble with a lot of stuff. That's why I play guitar and picked it up later in life.

AAJ: Do you play guitar on every track on Ballads?

RM: Pretty much. I got inspired because if something is written and has all this depth as a voicing and it's been left out because someone names it [or] simplifies it, then that doesn't inspire me at all.

AAJ: It works vice versa as well. If you write a tune where you want the chords to be more simplified and somebody comes in and "hippifies them all up and puts all this other stuff on them, that can change things in a negative way as well.

RM: Well, yeah, because that's not what you want. But generally that's not always the problem. For me that's what's wrong with things like The Real Book [a widely used, illegal book of jazz tunes/standards since the '60s/'70s] with those old songs. The way something's actually written, and the score is so beautiful in combination with the melody, and it's all been dumbed-down. It really has. You can't believe [it]. Go find a songbook and listen. Go find a George Gershwin songbook and check out any of his tunes in there that are common that you can find and play every note that's written in there with the melody. Then check it out next to a Real Book. So much of it is lost. It's incredible and it's a shame because it's mind-blowing what was actually written.

So playing the guitar gives me more of an opportunity to say, "No, it's not that, it's this (sings a few notes of a chord), whatever it is. Then they're like, "What? Let me hear that again. And I'll play it note by note and they'll say, "Oh my god, that's a blah blah so and so..., Then I'll say, "Ok, good. We're on the same page now so pull that music out of the song.

So, back to where we were, about Peter and how the musicians make everything what they are. Peter really made that record wonderful. His parts and ideas and his generosity to the music and giving me all that time.

AAJ: I'd be interested in the recording process for the latest record with Paul Motian. You said you went in knowing the tunes you wanted to do and he'd ask you what arrangement you wanted to do. I imagine you'd say something like, "I'll sing this and then Chris will play here and then we'll do this. What was the session like with the Ballads record? Form-wise it's more involved than the Motian record. There are more parts happening with form and with instrumentation. I'm wondering if you had parts for everyone and went and rehearsed the tunes for a few days and then recorded? Or did everybody just come in and you just hit it?

RM: The process for Ballads was years and years of live performance. Everybody really developed their own parts for the tunes. I'd been playing with everybody on this record on and off for many years and some of the songs had been written a long time ago but just hadn't been recorded yet. Over the years the guys got very familiar with the songs so that they had the freedom to create parts. That's the fun for them—to try to find the strongest part they can write for the song that has the most meaning in a short amount of time because the songs are 3:30 to 5:00 minutes long. It's really important that it has an arc. It's not as open and free as if they were just playing, you know, a standard; playing the tune and then soloing and have all the freedom.

Actually [pianist] Brad [Mehldau] just came to mind. One of the things that I love about Brad is that he's such a strong melody player. The melody is always, always in his solos. In a sense, I feel that's what these guys are doing with my music. They're improvising but they're always playing the melody I've written and always implying the harmonic intention. They're always searching for the most meaning in what they're doing in a very short form. Once they find it they just stick with it. Then, in the moment, the improvisation is truly just the freedom for everybody to interpret that day how they're feeling and it comes out in the song even if the parts are the same. There's always freedom. I don't write parts out. A lot of times the guys might forget exactly what they wrote so the part they're playing may not be exactly what they'd written initially. It's always a little different.

It was done in the same way as Paul's record in that that we went in and recorded live to get the basic tracks. Mostly within three or four takes we'd have the track that we felt, collectively, everybody played their best. The challenge was that there were so many musicians on [Ballads] and trying to choose the right instrumentation for whatever particular tune we were playing. I always have trouble cutting things out because I love all of it. It's like starving and wanting everything in the grocery store and not being discerning. It's sort of like that on this record because I play with all these great guys and I hadn't recorded in too many years which is another reason why there are so many songs and it was just great. It was very hard to cut anything out and I was encouraged not to by the label and the co-producer Brian [Bacchus], which I don't think was the right thing to do. But we did it. I think it's too many songs now, but I hadn't recorded in a long time and I wanted to get all this stuff documented before it was too late. Obviously it was the right thing in that respect and there's plenty more. But I won't do that again. I don't think that was the thing to do.

AAJ: There's a few tunes on there where the instrumentation and the arrangements create a real sense of drama—parts entering gradually as the lyric reveals itself, more instruments coming in. I like that a lot.

RM: That's beautiful, right? That's the sensitivity of the musicians. That's all at work. That's what I mean. They're listening to the lyric and the melody and reacting to it. I think [drummer] Darren Beckett is fantastic. I think I was really lucky to have worked with him at this time because I love his work here.

AAJ: Darren Beckett?

RM: Darren Beckett, with [bassist] Matt Penman, who just played perfectly on this record. Matt's heavenly to play with. He's like Larry in that way; very supportive, melodic and sensitive. He's also a terrible poker player (laughs). I'm joking. He's actually a terrific poker player. I just like to psyche him out for the next game. He's good at keeping people in as they're winning. He's a bit like Las Vegas—good at keeping you in until he's taken all your money.

AAJ: There's one last thing I wanted to talk to you about. You live here (Kingston, New York) now, right? I've spoken with other people, artists and friends, that have lived in NYC for a while and like it but for a number of reasons have wanted leave there; some wanting, or having to leave, while still needing to work there. I also know a lot of people that have a hard time getting work there trying to be artists. It can be a difficult situation in the city just in terms getting gigs and pay; real-world, crass, nitty-gritty crap like that. I'm just wondering if you have any feelings on the city in general. On living there and maybe if it affected you.

RM: I think it's really important to be in NYC if you're a musician because there's so much going on. It's a great place to go at some point in your development if you want to raise the level of how you're playing because you're in this great musical environment. There's always great stuff going on, which is really inspiring.

It's difficult for everybody. But the balancing act for me is that there's just no other place like it to really get better. I'm so grateful for my time in New York because it really kicked my ass. Without it, I don't know if I would've found this path that I'm on now that I love. I might've found something else. But who I was before New York and who I am now, it's so different. I'm more focused on the work that I do. Earlier on I loved to sing and write but it wasn't very focused. I really believe that being in New York helped me get my act together.

AAJ: Yeah. It seems there are so many people there that are very focused and at a really high level that if you're not really focused and working really hard as well, it's going to be difficult.

RM: I think that's a mistake people make though. I think if you think that way going into New York then you're probably not going to have an enjoyable time. You've got to go there because you want to learn, not because you want to be the best or compete. If you diminish the level that you're at because you're comparing yourself to whoever; Kurt [Rosenwinkel] or [guitarist] Ben Monder, or whoever, that's really not the point. Because comparisons generally tend to either diminish who you are or elevate who you are. That's what I think of comparisons.

You just go to learn and you hang as long as you feel like you can hang. I couldn't hang for more than ten years. I was done. I was fried. That it was it for me. I was cooked. I just don't like living like that. After a while living in a small space and being up in the air in an apartment and going outside and always being surrounded by people and this energy that's chaotic, after awhile I just said, "Okay that's it. No more. I'm done. But I was there for ten years and that's what I needed.

I don't think people should be discouraged if they're not part of a scene. You know, you've got to make a living. But not necessarily always at doing what you love. Not at first. I don't know how everybody finds that. It's definitely a unique thing; everybody's path [to] figuring that out. But, you've got to go in open and excited to be a part of stuff and be committed to working harder at what you love and being less interested in comparing yourself to what somebody else has or what someone else is doing. That's not productive and that's not really about the music anyway. I know that can't be helped to some degree but you've got to be conscious of that stuff in order to get to your own voice.

Everybody's got their own voice that's important. Whether you change one person's perspective or a million peoples' perspectives it's all pretty major. But if you change one person's way of thinking, just by accident, just being honest and sharing? Well, my life means everything to me so if somebody changes my thinking in any little way that's with me for my whole life, that's major. You don't have to be Gandhi to do something really good.

I hear that a lot. I hear a lot of musicians get discouraged about New York because it's too hard to get gigs or they're not being welcomed into a certain scene that they're trying to get into. That's frustrating as hell. But if that's where you need to be, you've got to figure that out. That's part of the lesson; figuring out how to be as productive as you can without losing your focus with all the other things that actually don't really matter [or] affect the music. But I don't know how people figure that out. It's definitely challenging and I [still] struggle with it too. You figure it out.

Right before I signed with MaxJazz I had three jobs after all the stuff I'd done. I was working three jobs in 2003 because I had to pay the bills and I wasn't doing it with music. Using different skills of mine to make money. That's not easy to do but that's what you've got to do sometimes. But I was always grateful that I had the drive to write songs because that's who I am.

AAJ: I was talking to a friend of mine about talent and whatever it means or if it exists. He didn't really believe in it so much. His perspective was that it was all pretty much work-oriented and that you just have to be really dedicated and work at it. So the mystery for him wasn't the talent but where does the drive come from? I think that can be something of a mystery. So you've got the drive that you mentioned you were grateful to have, but who knows where it comes from?

RM: Well, I've always been singing since as early as I can remember. You could call that a talent. Through that being a big part of who I am, I was driven to do it. Somebody once said that a lot of people that I know are [around my age], and girl friends of mine who've had children; they're just searching for their thing. That's what they call it—their thing. And I'll say, "What were you doing when you were ten? They say, "Wow, I was cooking. I was making pasta. Meanwhile, that is actually what they're trying to do. They're trying to get a business going where they're making pasta, but they're still not sure about it. But at ten they were making pasta with their grandfather and suddenly they're like, "Oh my god. That's it. That's my passion. I'm still doing it. I'm still making pasta. Well, maybe that's it. You come in maybe with something you're meant to use to do something, whatever it is. That immediacy makes people feel something. So maybe that's it. The drive then is to do it at all costs. The drive comes from really having that ability. Maybe that's it; It's an ability. Because when you say talent, it does get tricky.

[Postscript} At this point the tape unfortunately ran out. We spoke about a few more things, including Martin mentioning that she feels like she's coming up to a big creative opening. The recent birth of her son Charlie has created routine in her life that she says is good for her writing. And besides her next record of original songs she spoke about in the interview, she also mentioned another project she already has in mind beyond that. She wants to make a recording of tunes for which she'll write original lyrics to the melodies of modern jazz tunes written by Brad Mehldau, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Tohnino Horta, Charles Mingus, Guillermo Klein, and the Fly trio with saxophonist Mark Turner, Larry Grenadier and drummer Jeff Ballard. It's a very intriguing idea and will be fun to hear the words Martin searches out. It's a project for an artist with the right amount of drive, something that's clearly in no short supply with Rebecca Martin.

Selected Discography

Paul Motian Trio 2000+1, On Broadway Vol. 4: Or the Paradox of Continuity (Winter&Winter, 2006)
Rebecca Martin, People Behave Like Ballads (MaxJazz, 2004)
Rebecca Martin, Middlehope (Fresh Sound New Talent, 2002)
Rebecca Martin/Timothy Hill/Frank Tedesso, The Independence Project Live at The Outlook (Independent, 2002)
Sonny Probe, The World is a Stupid Place (Smasheasy, 2001)
Rebecca Martin, Thoroughfare (Independent, 1999)
Once Blue, Once Blue (EMI, 1995)

Photo Credit
Courtesy of Rebecca Martin and photographer Jimmy Katz

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