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Interviews

John Surman: From Boy Choirs to Big Horns

By Published: August 31, 2009
Coming to ECM

"We [Surman and Stu Martin] did [Barre Phillips'] Mountainscapes (ECM, 1976), and that's when the dialogue began. Then Jack [DeJohnette] called me and asked if I'd do a Mick Goodrick album [In Pas(s)ing]. I was in the studio with Manfred and he said, 'Let's do something,' so I proposed that I do the solo album, which I thought would be an interesting sound, and so did he."

John SurmanThat album, Upon Reflection (ECM, 1980), would be the start of a lifelong relationship with ECM as both a leader and guest, as well as the first in a series of completely solo albums, where Surman would layer saxophones, bass clarinet, keyboards and more to create, orchestral combinations of in-the-moment spontaneity and preplanned composition.

That first project also established a strong working relationship with Eicher. "The solo project for Manfred was interesting," Surman says, "because we got involved together very much from that. When you're alone in the studio recording then it really is useful to have someone in the control room that's got a really good ear. You do one track, and then you multi-track, and then you can ask Manfred how was that and he says, 'Great, great, go on to the next track,' so you can keep the immediacy, you can keep the vibe.

"We managed to get a way of working together straightaway, and I think he enjoyed that work, he was brilliant at it because I might do seven or eight takes, and he has this ability, this very good memory, for what's happened, so when we came to put it all together he said, 'What you want to listen to is this," and, 'Check that,' and so we had good cooperation there and that's why it worked out quite quickly."

Surman's next two projects—The Amazing Adventures of Simon Simon (1981) and Such Winters of Memory (1982) would feature two artists—Jack DeJohnette and Norwegian singer Karin Krog respectively—with whom Surman would come to collaborate often. As with DeJohnette, Surman's relationship with Krog has gone beyond the music. "We met in 1970," Surman explains. "The Down Beat readers poll in 1969 or '70 had Europeans like [Albert] Mangelsdorff, Jean-Luc Ponty
Jean-Luc Ponty
Jean-Luc Ponty
b.1942
violin
, Karin, me, Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen, Daniel Humair
Daniel Humair
Daniel Humair
b.1938
, Francy Boland
Francy Boland
b.1929
and the entrepreneur, Joachim Berendt.

"[Berendt] is known because of his great Coltrane quartet albums. So he took this band to Japan, I met Karin there and we did an album. I wrote a tune for it and subsequently, for several years, she wrote to me occasionally for bits of material. And then we eventually wound up doing a duo record in the '70s which took about four years because I funded it and ran out of money. It sat around and finally, in the early '80s, we also became an item; I was divorced and we've been together since the end of the '80s."

Sideman Sessions

Surman has released nearly 20 albums as a leader for ECM, stylistically ranging from near-free explorations like Adventure Playground (1992), a quartet with pianist Paul Bley
Paul Bley
Paul Bley
b.1932
piano
, bassist Gary Peacock
Gary Peacock
Gary Peacock
b.1935
bass
and drummer Tony Oxley. Still based around sketchy compositional form, that 1991 session yielded so much freely improvised material that a second album, this time billed as a collective, was released a year later as In the Evenings Out There It's not uncommon for ECM sessions to include some completely free improv—or, in the case of Brewster's Rooster's "Haywain," something built around such a spare idea that it's hard to think of it as possessing any structure at all. But Surman has participated as a guest on as many sessions as he has as a leader.

Surman was a member of Czech bassist Miroslav Vitous
Miroslav Vitous
Miroslav Vitous
b.1947
bass
' late-'70s/early-'80s quartet with drummer Jon Christensen and, first, pianist Kenny Kirkland
Kenny Kirkland
Kenny Kirkland
1955 - 1998
piano
and then John Taylor
John Taylor
John Taylor
b.1942
piano
. First Meeting (ECM, 1980) was, as the title suggest, precisely that," Surman explains. It was simply about coming to the studio and recording. I hadn't met Miroslav, but I saw him the day before in the hotel. I remember he brought me some free aftershave, which I thought was sort of unusual, I'll never forget that. I knew Jon Christenson, but Kenny Kirkland I didn't know, and so it was set up like track one, track two, track three, and so on. And of course it worked out very well. Subsequently we did do two or three European tours and I even played in Seventh Avenue South, the club that used to be the Breckers' club some years ago in New York."

John Surman

The group released three albums on ECM, but its second, Miroslav Vitous Group (1981) has yet to see release on CD. Still, Surman included his fiery "Number Six," from that album, on rarum XIII: Selected Recordings (ECM, 2004), an anthology of Surman's music picked by Surman. "I thought Miroslav's arco solo on 'Number Six' was just unbelievable, the tempo and the way he plays; and Kenny's solo too, leaving out the hollering and screaming. I think there was an element there where Miroslav was rather keen to play electric bass, and Manfred was a little bit less enthusiastic, so there was a bit more improvisation [on that album]. I think Miroslav was looking for something that had commercial appeal, which we all have to think about from time to time, and then finally Kenny joined Sting, and thence John Taylor came in, and in that way the band changed. It was different; they were equal, but they were different; John gave it a different feel [on Journey's End (1983)], which is as it should be. I think we did at least one more tour. We had a lot of fun with it; there were a lot of good times with that band on the road."

Another group that turned into more than a one-album affair was the quartet Surman played in with Paul Bley, also including drummer Paul Motian
Paul Motian
Paul Motian
1931 - 2011
drums
and a relatively young Bill Frisell
Bill Frisell
Bill Frisell
b.1951
guitar
on guitar. "A very singular gentleman, Paul [Bley]," John says. "Paul Motian happened to be knocking around, and Paul took care of Paul, as it were; I got on really well with Bill. Off the bandstand, there were no problems, I'd toddle along with Bill and we'd go our way and the Pauls would do what they had to do."

The group released its ECM debut, Fragments, in 1986, but was a classic example of a group where the degree of improvisational empathy was so deep that its second album, Paul Bley Quartet (1988), ended up being entirely improvised, with writing credits assigned to band members for royalty purposes only. "There was a lot going on at that time, and it was a very open music. The first album was full of composed pieces, and the second one was totally improvised. I use that when I do workshops with musicians, I say, 'Well, this is where you start, and this is where you finish. This is how it develops and moves on.'"

As free as the group was to explore, it was not without attention to some form of structure, tenuous though it might appear. "Yeah, there's structure, and I think it takes a special kind of listening musician to do that," Surman says, "a kind of intuition about where and when to wait. When to go for it, and when to support. Creating form together is quite interesting, there aren't that many that can do it. If the musicians are really capable of doing collective, interesting improvisation—I'm not talking about the totally free thing where, really, the point of it all is that whatever you do is okay—I think with that group there's a lot of interesting melodic stuff that Bill and I found. We got close enough together [onstage] that we could kind of create small but fragmented melodies. We could even tell what note we were going to play next; it was quite interesting. I've never forgotten that. We'd do it night after night and look at each other and go, 'How did we do that?'"

Those two projects have come and gone, but there are a couple of projects either ongoing or resurfacing. The Dowland Project, spearheaded by tenor John Potter (an original member of The Hilliard Ensemble, but no longer with that classical vocal group), has released three CDs to date, beginning with 1999's dark but sublimely beautiful In Darkness Let Me Dwell. Combining classical singing with baroque guitar, violin/viola and Surman's saxophones, clarinets and recorders, The Dowland Project takes an ostensibly classical repertoire and turns it on its side by taking it to a place where form and freedom coexist, and where contemporary and ancient instruments also occupy the same space.

John SurmanThe concept may seem revolutionary, but, in fact, it's just a continuation of an existing approach. "John Potter, the driving force, would say that when music was created in the Renaissance period, those singers and songwriter people like Dowland—and a lot of melodies—were improvised; made up on the spot. This [The Dowland Project] is really meant to do the same thing, only with contemporary sources. It's unusual to have a soprano sax playing Dowland; it raises quite a few eyebrows for the purists, but I've managed to get away with it so far [laughs]."

The other project is Middle Eastern oudist Anouar Brahem
Anouar Brahem
Anouar Brahem
b.1957
oud
's trio with Surman and Dave Holland. Thimar (1998) was recorded 12 years ago, but the trio has performed since then, and it looks like there's another recording and tour in the making. "The thing with Anaour we did again. We were very successful; we did a tour a few months ago. There are plans laid to record and carry on with that, but it may be the end of next year. It may not happen very often, but we will do another album, that's for sure."

Projects with Tomasz Stanko
Tomasz Stanko
Tomasz Stanko
b.1942
trumpet
(1999's From the Green Hill), pianist Misha Alperin (1999's First Impression) and John Abercrombie (1993's November) were less enduring. "The only reason I did Misha's was someone was sick," says Surman. "I think Tore Brunborg
Tore Brunborg
Tore Brunborg
b.1960
saxophone
was sick or having a baby and I came in. So I went through that one in a state of being slightly stunned. I've known Stanko a long time, he was someone who was around when we were around with The Trio in the late-'60s/early '70s, and we did a project workshop with him and Johnny Griffin = 7239—maybe Karin was on it—so I got to work with him over the years and admired his playing. That [From the Green Hill] was fun to do. There were some very interesting musicians involved, and I wrote something for fiddle, that was really fun. Then with Abercrombie's November, we did a tour, and that's probably when I did most of my playing with him; that made me feel very comfortable with him, and all the odd occasions we played together it was comfortable. So there always have been links, through all of these things."


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