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A Fireside Chat with Kahil El'Zabar

By Published: February 21, 2004

AAJ: Does that stem from their understanding of the fundamentals?

KE: Well, it is a relationship to the basic ecology. So there are a lot of complications in nature, right? It changes constantly and we're not in control of it, so it is actually very sophisticated. But it is a basis of nature and ecology that define your life rather than social definitions that have come from our opinions in this urban experience.

AAJ: Do the social definitions that we have in this country limit our creativity?

KE: They are sometimes contrary to nature, whereas in most traditional cultures, they are in compliment to nature.

AAJ: What was the scene like in Chicago when you returned?

KE: It was starting to go down a little bit. The scene started drying up between '73 and '75. I think it was the same time as the growth of the Republican Party.

AAJ: How did the growth of the Republican Party contribute to the demise of improvised music in Chicago?

KE: Well, the infrastructures of how we are socialized really started to change from an autonomy kind of control situation. We had come out of the Sixties where ideas were pretty open and there was a passion for investigating other ways to live. Then because there were many consequences with that, trying to fight the Vietnam War, the political struggles of the Panthers, the Yuppies, or whatever and then a more conservative ethic coming in with political shifts that were there, media becoming much more censored, which meant less music of Trane, Trane after '64, not being on the radio, not hearing Shepp, not hearing Art Ensemble, not even hearing Lennie Tristano or anything that had to be more thought-provoking in its programmatic style, the dawning of the marketed jazz musician, that wasn't necessarily tenured from the street experience of performing, but could come from the conglomerate, EMI, Columbia, Warner Bros., or whatever. A lot changed between '75 to about '85 and in the process, some of the most original voices in the music were subjugated to secondary positions. But what I also find interesting is that many of the players from the business, marketing, and the areas of scholarship associated with the music, those that were there, Cuscuna (Michael Cuscuna), Lundvall (Bruce Lundvall), Stanley Crouch, as a writer and as a musician, these were all vanguard people that you see in the Eighties that became part of a more established environment because they were able to get jobs and there were certain requirements with those jobs and so the people who inspired their earlier careers were left out of the mix in the Eighties through the Nineties.

AAJ: You mentioned Archie Shepp, whom you featured on the last Ritual Trio album.

KE: Well, I mean the record Bright Moments with Joseph Jarman and Kalaparusha Maurice McIntyre and the new Ritual Trio album that is one of the newest records with Pharoah because Verve dropped Pharoah. I find it interesting that David Murray, Henry Threadgill, Archie Shepp, Sonny Simmons, Sonny Murray, there are so many important musicians, who are still in their prime, that is what people forget, that these musicians are between forty-five and fifty years old and so this is a very healthy time for people. It is a time where they have really developed their ideas and chronicled them in ways that may not be the so called impassioned youth that we once were, but we are at an age where we express things based on a historical analysis that we lived and we can express it honestly and there is no celebration of our tenure and our commitment of twenty-five, thirty-five, forty-five years and I think Shepp is just a prime example of a person who can intellectually articulate the commitment to this music. He is still an extremely expressive and creative person. Some people talk about the technique of Shepp at twenty-five, but why would you compare Shepp at sixty to twenty-five. It is a different scenario. The point with art is your ability to bring something honest and pure from yourself in an original way. I think he is still successful at that.

AAJ: Let's put the shoe on your foot and tell me what you would do to advance the presentation of this music if you were president of a major label.

KE: I would love to see a label that had the economic and politic support to be non-genre specific and that the purpose of it would be to promote the creative commitment and that it would be a decision that would be more of an A&R kind of analysis. In other words, you would have some folks who would be aware of someone like Darrell Jones, who is a bassist, electric bassist, no matter of whether he is playing Madonna or Sting or Miles or whatever, at his instrument, he is an extraordinary technician and he has been influential without people really realizing it in terms of that style of playing. I would love to see him play with Sonny Simmons, who has the ability to translate his vernacular, his harmonics in any style of music, but he is not given the opportunity. I would love to see more projects like the Olu Dara project. I would love to see a Masters Series like they did at Columbia in the Forties, where they did that Masters Series with Duke and Louis Armstrong. I would love to see a thing done where we understand the importance of Threadgill, the composer. What would you like to do Henry? Would it be a symphonic set or a chamber situation, a small jazz combo or combination of that? At least document a project that gives him the full plethora of opportunities of his creative resource. A great project would be, Joseph Jarman says he is retired from the Art Ensemble, well, where does that happen? Is there a thing that Yo-Yo Ma would like to do with Shepp or Pharoah? Why can't we stretch some of the boundaries and deal with people who have the creative sensibility, the chops, the dedication, and the love for it? Why can't we find some young musicians like a Graham Haynes, who are not just focused on bebop is the only way in which to research as a younger artist the next directions of the music? It would be a cornucopia more so of celebrating the creative spirit. Yusef Lateef turns eighty years old and there are no major birthday parties. He has no major recording contract and he has stayed honest to his directions, whether we agree with his directions or not, he has been honest and creative for over sixty years as a performing, improvising musician, and there is no major celebration of such a testament.

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