Phase Dancing: Gottlieb, Wertico, Sanchez—The Art of Drumming in the Pat Metheny Group

AAJ: How did you interpret the drum chair from Danny and approach it from your own drumming perspective?

PW: First of all, I'd like to say that I think Danny is a wonderful drummer and there were certain things in the music that Danny played that could be considered an integral part of the arrangement. I tried to play and honor those parts to the best of my ability, but in general Pat and Lyle wanted me to play like me and to bring my own voice into the music. When you hire someone, you hire them to be themselves, you usually don't hire them to be an imitation of the previous person. So, although there were some great things that Danny did on pieces like "San Lorenzo" and other tracks that we kept, I got the gig because of the way I was approaching playing the music, so that's what I did.

Pat was also very vocal about what he needed out of the music—concepts like "dynamics within the phrase" and all those kinds of things that gave the PMG's music its distinctive sound—and of course, Lyle had suggestions too. Steve was also very helpful because he became a member of the PMG a couple of years before me, so he was able to tell me things like, "Hey man, I love what you're doing, but you may also want to try this because I know Pat or Lyle like that kind of thing." It was that kind of interpretation.

AAJ: Can you share how you selected your drum kit and cymbals when you started in the PMG?

PW: The first tour I did was in Europe and I brought along one of my kits that I used for local gigs in Chicago and it almost fell apart because it couldn't take the beating. In fact, on my first gig with the PMG in Oslo, one of the nylon strings that connected the snares to the snare strainer on my snare drum broke during the second tune and we ended up duct taping the actual snares to the bottom snare drum head because Pat wouldn't pause the show so I could restring the thing. So, I played that first 3 hour and 45 minutes show with duct tape holding my snares onto the bottom snare head—it sounded terrible, like a cardboard box. The next day, we went to Copenhagen for our next gig and Pat actually brought me to a drum store there and he bought me a new snare drum.

On that tour, I also brought the cymbals that I used in Chicago, comprised of all different brands. I just brought whatever I could. But when I got home, I contacted companies like Paiste, Yamaha, Remo, ProMark, and Shure to get endorsements.

For my second tour—the US tour in the summer of 1983—all of a sudden, I had this beautiful Yamaha kit. I remember Pat going, "Wow, you sound so much better!" Not only could this new kit take the beating, but it also had a much broader range of dynamics and sounds. I also got my endorsement with Paiste cymbals. Danny used Paiste back then and so did other ECM drummers like Jon Christensen and Jack DeJohnette. It was a totally natural thing for me to go with them at that time since my very first drum set was a Ludwig kit that came with Paiste cymbals (I should definitely mention that I now endorse Drum Workshop, Dream Cymbals, Remo, ProMark, and Shure).

AAJ: Prior to recording your first album with the PMG (First Circle), you were touring promoting the Travels record with the other new group member, Pedro Aznar. How was the experience on the road?

PW: That first European tour starting in January 1983 was very intense, especially the first half of it. After every gig, Pat took notes and had comments for us on what we can do better on this or that, in order to give him what he was looking for. So that was a real on-the-job learning experience. Also, since Pedro and I joined the band at the same time, as the new members, we really bonded. I remember many times after certain shows, the promoter might have a dinner for the band and after the dinner, Pedro and I would walk around the town for hours discussing the music, our roles in the band, and life in general which was very helpful. It was nice not being by yourself in such a new and challenging environment. He and I really became close friends and were almost like psychotherapists for each other as far as the music was concerned by analyzing things during that tour. Later, by the time the first US tour began, things were much smoother and Pedro and I settled much more into the music and the group.

AAJ: On the track, "The First Circle," your technique of playing two flat ride cymbals (left and right with each hand) was innovative and hugely effective for that composition. Can you explain how you developed your approach to doing that?

PW: As you can hear, the clarity and timbre of the flat rides were important elements in the band's sound. Also, since I'm not usually a "patternistic" type of drummer, I prefer to simply react to a composition's melodies and harmonies. So, when I was playing that song, that's basically what I was doing, even though I think we did have a lead sheet. I was playing various subdivisions and syncopations—almost trying to get a Brazilian caxixi kind of thing going—in response to the melody. Again, basically just reacting to the music. To me, the music really tells me what to play, so I almost don't think about it—I just do it. And then there are those tom fills in the middle part of the song that we used to call the "Hollywood" section. There, I just improvised my part in real time, almost like a timpani kind of thing that would be in a Hollywood movie—that's how that came about.

AAJ: Were those two flat rides on "The First Circle" the same kind of ride cymbals?

PW: I believe on that recording they were both 22" flat rides and they were different models (Paiste 602 and 2002). I don't think at that time either of them had rivets. If one did, it would've been the left flat ride cymbal next to the hi-hat, but I honestly don't remember.

AAJ: In 1984 you recorded the soundtrack to The Falcon and the Snowman where you recorded the legendary track "This is Not America." Tell us about laying down that track and working with David Bowie?

PW: We recorded most of the album in London, but the track "This is Not America" was done in Switzerland. I remember when I got to the studio, David himself answered the door and he put his hand out and said, "Hi, I'm David." That was so cool.

When we recorded that track, there was a Roland drum machine playing the percussion sounds. The bass drum was also programmed. So, I played the snare drum back beats, as well as the fills and crashes. I also played the conga part, but I played it not only with my hands, but also with my elbow to bend the pitch. I may have played tambourine too, as well as some of the other percussion parts because with the PMG's music, a lot of times we would play live parts to replace the programmed percussion parts in order to make things sound more human.

Now with David, he also told me that I reminded him of Anthony Newley, who was a big influence on him. Of course, that was very flattering. David and I got along really well. I remember one time when he and I were having lunch while sitting outside on Lake Geneva during a break and he showed me these very unique cards that he said he used with Brian Eno. I don't even know if they had a name at that time, but they were cards that were problem solving cards. So, for instance, if you were recording and you got stuck for ideas or needed a direction, you'd throw a card out and it might say, "Reverse the tape" or "Think of the radio" or "Do we need holes?" or "Honour thy error as a hidden intention" and so on. Those cards were incredible. I remember I asked him if I could have them, but he said that they were the only set of cards in existence. Now you can purchase those cards online, they're called Oblique Strategies.

Another interesting thing happened when David was recording his vocals. Lyle and Pat noticed that I got along with him really well. So, when he was laying down his vocal track, Pat and Lyle used me as a liaison to direct him. It worked this way. I'd hear instructions from Pat and Lyle through my headphones like, "ask him to do this" or "do this one word over" or "do this phrase over," etc., and then I would relay their messages over to David. As crazy as it sounds now, I was the one telling David Bowie what to do, but Pat and Lyle were the ones making those decisions. That was a trip, but David was so good and he was very open to suggestions. We were all blown away. He was so gracious and incredibly great to work with and to be around.

"Paul was a machine. He brought unbelievable energy night after night for years. To use NFL terms, he never took a night off and he always left it all on the field. Paul was amazing and a tireless contributor. He was a rock." —Lyle Mays

AAJ: During your tenure with the PMG you played with electronic drums, drum machines and sequencers among other things. Was this difficult for you to deal with?

PW: It wasn't difficult for me at all. As far as using electronics and that kind of stuff, I had always played around with new sounds. With my band, Earwax Control, I often triggered my drums using Barcus-Berry pickups, going through various effects pedals and processors. As far as being able to play in time with tracks, I think that's one of the reasons I got the PMG gig. Even though I never really played a lot with sequencers before, for whatever reason I was easily able to do it, and the only difficult thing would've been that I wasn't using a click track or headphones. Instead, I had this gigantic monitor by my hi-hat that always needed to be above the volume of the rest of the band's sound—including my drums and Pat's guitar—and Pat was really loud, plus I was positioned right next to him. But, for the most part we rarely, if ever, got off with the sequencer even though there were a few times when the sequencer went crazy, dropping out and even skipping beats. That happened one night while we were playing "The First Circle" and the sequencer started glitching and skipping beats at random and we had to try to chase it and keep adjusting to get back with it. That was a bit of an interesting challenge!

AAJ: In 1996, the group recorded the album Quartet. Was this a breath of fresh air for you to play given your natural approach to drumming in a more open environment?

PW: That was a fun album to make—just the four of us. We improvised some of the material and the other compositions were written by Lyle and Pat. There are three tunes where we also split the writing and publishing credits evenly which was nice. Although some of those tracks were still recorded with a click track, we didn't use sequencers on that recording. One of my regrets is that we never toured to support that record.

Another thing is that recording is one of the first official documents where Paiste "Traditional" cymbals were used because I had early versions of that new model which was still unnamed. I actually came up with that particular name. It was also the first time I used those darker types of cymbals with the band because Quartet didn't seem like a flat ride kind of recording. Plus, I got to include some other different sounds that I had used with Earwax Control and other bands, like hubcaps and other found sounds, because the music on that recording seemed to call for that. It was also an album that had more sonic space, so I was not competing with a lot of synths or other elements in terms of frequencies and density.

AAJ: Speaking of the PMG's vast compositions that you were a part of, what is your immediate take away about that music?

PW: Pat and Lyle's compositions were so good. It was never like playing compositions that were complex just for the sake of complexity. The melodies and harmonies were unbelievably great. Even an odd meter, or an odd bar, or anything unusual, felt natural. It was never done just to be clever. That's the one thing I loved about playing that music—it was MUSIC! It wasn't about musical calisthenics and trying to show off.

AAJ: If you had to select one PMG track that you're playing on that you're very proud of, what track would it be and why?

PW: I've always loved the track "Mas Allá (Beyond)" from the First Circle album. One of the reasons is because of the way I played on it, as well as the mood we all captured. There are also some over-the-bar-line kind of fills that I did that I always liked. Plus, the way the tune builds and flows, you can really feel it in your soul. I'm very proud of that performance and I think it's a beautiful track.

AAJ: When you think about your tenure in the PMG now, what first comes to your mind?

PW: Well, I have to say I feel quite fortunate. There are a million drummers out there and a million musicians, and I've had a wonderful life. I was lucky to have a world class gig being in the PMG and to be able to leave some kind of legacy because people dream of being on records that are considered influential or historic. And even though I don't necessarily always think of our albums that way when I think of them, many people seem to. For me, the music itself always came first, but being able to enjoy life while touring and playing for so many different people from so many different countries, I can't help but consider myself very lucky and blessed.

Currently

Paul performs and records with a variety of artists and several groups including the Paul Wertico Trio, the Fareed Haque-Paul Wertico-Larry Gray Trio, Wertico Cain & Gray, and the Paul Wertico / John Helliwell Project. He is Associate Professor of Jazz Studies at Chicago College of Performing Arts at Roosevelt University. He is the author of the ground breaking drum book Turn The Beat Around.

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Antonio Sanchez (2001-2010)

ALBUMS: Speaking of Now, The Way Up

"So much of what the drummer's job is to define the dynamics of the piece and to make the general shape of it come alive." —Pat Metheny

All About Jazz: Do you recall your first time hearing the PMG? Do you recall the track and what were your initial thoughts?

Antonio Sanchez: That's an interesting story and that is actually linked to Alejandro Gonzales Iñarritu and Birdman. Iñarritu used to be a well respected DJ at one of the best radio stations in Mexico back in the '80s called 96.9 Digital Magic and this station had a nightly show called Magic Nights where they would play more sophisticated music. I used to listen to that show a lot before going to bed and one of those evenings I heard "Last Train Home" and I was immediately intrigued by the hypnotic nature of the music. I was a rock and roller so I wasn't listening to anything jazzy around that time so the sound of the PMG immediately caught my ear with the wordless vocals and the haunting harmonies. It's wild to think that I first heard the PMG thanks to the fact that Iñarritu was their fan and that I ended doing Birdman because he heard me playing live with them decades later. Crazy how things work out sometimes.

AAJ: As you pursued your musical education and career, did you ever imagine yourself playing in the PMG? Was it something that you wanted to do?

AS: I definitely did not imagine myself playing with the PMG at all around that time partly because I was mostly trying to be a rock drummer back in Mexico and then I was trying to learn straight ahead jazz at Berklee when I moved to Boston in '93. It just seemed completely unattainable but I remember seeing one of the videos they had out around that time and being completely blown away by the whole thing.

AAJ: Tell us about your audition. How did it happen?

AS: I was touring with Danilo Pérez's trio a lot in the late 90's and early 2000's and we were doing a European tour where we shared a bill with Pat's Trio at the Torino Jazz Festival. I briefly met Pat at the soundcheck and he was very nice. I was definitely excited to meet him because he was the biggest jazz name that I had met so far. He played first and we closed the concert. His trio was with Larry Grenadier and Bill Stewart and they sounded great and completely brought the house down so we were a little intimidated to play after them but our trio was really dialed up as well and we had a very good show. I was playing with a jazz kit plus a bunch of other percussion around me because we were doing a really cool mix of genres and I was experimenting with different sounds that required me to do a lot of fun and challenging drumming coordination feats. Apparently Pat was having dinner backstage while we were playing and he thought there was an extra percussion player playing with us but it was all me so he went by the stage to check me out and I guess that piqued his curiosity.

We exchanged info after the gig and he wrote me a really nice, long email about how much he had liked our gig but mostly my playing. I was blown away. At the end of the email it said "want to play? What are you doing next week?" I freaked out. I really couldn't believe he wanted to jam with me.

I went over to the studio he used to have by Times Square with cymbals and sticks in hand. He opened the door, greeted me and we started chatting about music. Jack DeJohnette's Lite High Tech (white) Sonor kit was just sitting there. It was a nice drum set but it required a special tuning key that I didn't have so I had to play it as it was, which was not at all the tuning that I would have wanted. The kit felt so awkward and I was pretty nervous so I was hoping for the best. I didn't know if this was an audition or what but I braced myself and tried to hide my discomfort as best as I could.

The first thing we played was "Turnaround" by Ornette Coleman. Within a few bars I started relaxing and just enjoying the experience. We ended up playing for over four hours! I remember it felt very easy and comfortable playing with him. Our time feel aligned very easily.

We kept getting together every time we would both be in town and we both really seemed to enjoy the experience although he would never reveal too much about his intentions to hire me until around 6 months later when he made it official.

AAJ: How did your early exposure to the group's music, and its previous drummers, affect you when you joined the band?

AS: It affected me greatly. I looked up to both Danny and Paul as they created a whole sound with the PMG that I wanted to respect and honor. They both had very distinct approaches that served the music really well so I was trying to figure out how to fuse their styles with mine which was a very interesting challenge that took me a while to decipher.

AAJ: How much instruction did you receive from Pat and Lyle about your role and playing?

AS: A lot of instruction. I mean, a lot of instruction especially from Pat but I understood that the band had its own language and syntax. It was like playing jazz while not playing jazz if that makes any sense. We had to play and interact as if we were playing swing and bebop but in the PMG straight-eight-note style which changed the whole equation.

AAJ: How did you select your kit and cymbal collection to use in the group? And how did it evolve?

AS: I listened to a lot of the older material and tried to come up with a set that was a bit like Danny's and a bit like Paul's. I had never played with so many cymbals in my life! I knew the flat ride was an essential part of the PMG sound so Zildjian made me a couple of really cool 22" A Custom flat rides that I used for a long time. Little by little, I started modifying the set up and starting adding and subtracting things according to how the music was evolving.

The kit on Speaking of Now was an attempt to emulate a little bit of the sound of both Danny and Paul. Since I didn't have my own sound with the PMG yet I was trying to fit in as best as I could with a set up that would sound familiar to the group.

By the time The Way Up came around we had already done a bunch of touring and I had a better idea of what parts of the kit I really identified with and worked well with the music. I started making adjustments by especially switching to darker cymbals and altering the tuning of the drums to suit the new repertoire better.

AAJ: Can you tell us what you enjoyed about Danny and Paul's playing with the Group and what did you take away from those guys in your own approach to playing in the Group?

AS: I always loved Danny's feel. Everything he played felt really good to me and because they were older recordings they had a very warm sound to my ears. Paul's trademark cymbal sound with the group was something that I immediately dug and wanted to build upon so I definitely learned about the band's vocabulary and concept through both of them.

AAJ: When you recorded your first PMG album, Speaking of Now, what was that experience like and how did you approach your drumming for the recording?

AS: When we recorded Speaking of Now in 2001 I really wanted to make Pat, Lyle and Steve feel as comfortable as possible so I was really trying to emulate the sound and vocabulary that both Danny and Paul had created while trying to inject my style into the mix but at that point I definitely hadn't found my own voice within the group. It took months of touring for everybody to start feeling comfortable with me.I had never been in a situation where I came into a band that had been around for so long and that had such an extensive catalog and history. It was a great learning experience.

AAJ: Your drumming is extraordinary on the Group's final recording The Way Up. It's a masterpiece of Pat and Lyle's collaborative compositional genius. How long did it take for you to learn that music?

AS: Thank you. That was a very intricate piece of music to learn. We recorded it in sections so we didn't have to actually learn it until we were going to go on tour much later. Once I had the final master with me I just kept listening to it everyday for months so that it would just sip into my subconscious. By the time we started rehearsing it was already saved to my brain's hard drive but then we had to learn how to play it together which was a whole other ballgame. We rehearsed for 4-5 days only and then we had the first gig. One of the scariest experiences in all of our collective lives, I think.

"Antonio has an amazing ability within such complex metric modulation to paint orchestration perfectly and effortlessly." —Lyle Mays

AAJ: What were The Way Up recording sessions like? And, how did you prepare to perform it live from a drumming stand point?

AS: It was an interesting process because we went into the studio before they started writing the actual piece so that I could record a bunch of different grooves and feels for them to get ideas from. They would suggest what kind of things they were looking for and I would just start improvising and building upon the grooves I was playing and then they used some of the demos to build upon and compose. For example, the groove that you hear in the very beginning of the album is something that I improvised during that initial session.

For the album recording, we all had demos that we checked out ahead of time but amazingly we didn't get to rehearse before the actual session because Pat and Lyle had just actually finished writing the whole piece so we were assembling the music as we went along. I recorded all my parts in a week but they were in the studio for much longer doing tons of post production and overdubs.

AAJ: In 2010, you toured with Pat, Lyle and Steve Rodby as a quartet. This would be the final PMG tour and performances. How did you approach your drumming in a much more slimmed down musical environment? What was the last track you played with the PMG?

AS: We were still doing some of the tunes with sequences and backing tracks during that tour but a lot of other songs we were just playing as a band so the music was a little more open and loose in a very good way.

I believe the last tune we played was "Minuano" in Barcelona. It never occurred to me that that was going to be the last time we would all play together.

AAJ: If you had to point someone to one PMG track that you are playing on as a proud example of your drumming, what track would it be and why?

I've always loved "As It Is" because I think it's the first tune I recorded with the PMG and it's just such a great, groovy tune that was always a blast to play and to just listen to. I remember listening to the finished product once everything was said and done and I was just blown away by the whole thing. "Proof " is another one where the band would just kill it. Amazing solos by Pat and Lyle. The Way Up is technically one tune so that's the one to check out. But if I had to choose one part of it it would have to be "Part 3." It's so beautiful, epic, introspective and uplifting all at the same time.

AAJ: When you think about your tenure in the PMG now, what first comes to mind?

AS: I'm just incredibly grateful to have been a member of a band that played such a big part in modern music. I will forever be honored to be part of that legacy.

Currently

Antonio performs and records with a host of artists including his wife Thana Alexa as well as leading his own bands Bad Hombre, Migration and Trio Grande with Gilad Hekselman & Will Vinson. Aside from creating the soundtrack to Birdman, Antonio has composed music for the television series Get Shorty and is currently working on the music for an HBO docuseries. Antonio's new signature loop, groove and sample library is now available.

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