By Laurence Donohue-Greene

Pianist Stanley Cowell and trumpeter Charles Tolliver reunited their legendary small free hard-bop group from the late '60s and '70s, Music Inc., on June 13th at Tribeca Performing Arts Center's "Lost Jazz Shrines" series, a tribute to the now defunct Lower East Side club, Slugs'. Before their first show in over 20 years as Music Inc., bringing to life their now historic recordings, All About Jazz: New York spoke with Music Inc's performing partners and co-founders of Strata-East Records.

AllAboutJazz: What was New York City's jazz scene like during the mid '60s?

Charles Tolliver: There was so much going on with the music. Like with bebop, we had a long period of just salivating on. There were all these different idioms within a genre, the avant-garde and free music, bebop still, and of course the music of John Coltrane and Miles. It was just a hell of a period. And then there was also the political scene going on. And here we are, some 35 years later, and we're involved in the same controversies as what was going on then!

AAJ: You co-founded Strata-East Records in 1971 with the inaugural release of Music Inc. & Big Band. Would you say in retrospect that you set some sort of standard, if not a trend, for artist-run labels?

CT: There's a ton of guys now doing this. But, no, we didn't do this to set any standards whatsoever...Frankly and to tell the truth, we shopped that thing. If a major record company had said "OK we'll take that", we would have gone with it. But there was a vacuum thing happening then, and we didn't have people championing it. So we said heck, we know we've got something here, let's bring it on out, still not thinking about having a record company, just doing it really like a record company, facially and everything and with excellent pressings--everything that was being done by the majors and independents at the time. We had to have a name, and these fellows, friends of Stanley at the time in Detroit, called them-selves Strata Corporation and they had their stuff together.

Stanley Cowell: They had the philosophy, and they had already instituted themselves as a corporation with some concerts.

CT: What happened is that the great Clifford Jordan didn't know whether he was going to put out [many recordings] himself, and he saw that we were dead-on serious about what we were doing and that we had a facial look of a record company. It was him bringing his stuff in that really made this a real record operation. And from there on, we had a bunch of people knocking on the door, and it grew and grew.

AAJ: How many Strata-East releases are there at this point?

SC: Well, by '74, we had fifty. There were always other musicians who wanted or had produced something, so Charles came up with the idea of a condominium concept, where they assigned their masters to us. Initially they had to put the initial pressings out, but after a point we were able to help these guys, unknown guys, who didn't have any track records, to put out their records and that's how it mushroomed.

AAJ: Has it since slowed down?

CT: Well, it wasn't a matter of slowing down. For me with the record industry, unless you have new product coming out, you never are going to be able to get into a record company because it's always about new talent that you're developing…Commercial record companies are putting artists under contract like crazy all the time so they can have fresh product. Our concept was completely different. It was about musicians putting their own product out to the audience that [they] had or created…The trick with Strata-East was keeping a visibility or keeping it alive just enough so that there would always be something interesting, and the interesting thing about a record operation is that once it reaches a certain period, where it gets to be known not only just with aficionados and fans, [it] takes on a historical context. We kept it quietly alive. It got to senior citizenry, the historical point where we can say that we are very proud that we were able to manage this against so many odds.

AAJ: And what is the status of Stratus-East over the last decade?

CT: Stratus-East is being kept alive for strictly historical reasons.

AAJ: And how did Music Inc. come about?

CT: Well, you know, we had been working with Max [Roach] for two years, after he had the band with Freddie Hubbard and James Spaulding. The band with me and Stanley also included Odean Pope and Jymie Merritt. There were some concerts coming up in with Jimmy Hopps and Steve Novosel originally.

SC: That came about because they were with Rahsaan [Roland Kirk], and I had a connection with Rahsaan because he's from where I'm from, Ohio. I had gone over to visit him, and he was having a rehearsal with Jimmy Hopps and Novosel…[later] I remember running into them in front of the Vanguard, and saying, "Well you guys ready to go to Europe?!" It was just like that. Charles had the gigs already set up.

CT: That's right! And they did, and so Music Inc. was born!…That was '69.

SC: And [Charles' record] The Ringer, came out of that with [record producer] Alan Bates, as well as my first trio record, Blues for the Viet Cong.

CT: Right in the thrawls of Nixon getting ready to resign!

AAJ: The two Strata-East recordings at Slugs' seem to be possibly the only live documents from the club.

SC: Well, there may have been guys who taped their nights there, not as a professional thing, but nobody seems to know!

CT: Well if they had, by now, because there was nothing but name musicians who played there, they would have pulled it out. But we actually intended to make a record and had the equipment in there to record that engagement.

AAJ: The recordings are great. The crowd is very hard to notice as is any obtrusive background noise, drinking and chatting.

CT: We were meticulous about it. On that recording there was a brilliant man, Orville O'Brien who is now dead, the engineer. He was way ahead…He had a terrific engineering mind when we sat down to mix, utilizing his engineering skills and power and knowledge of music and musicians, and capturing sound! Basically, I grew up with that old way to record analogue [like] with Blue Note Records, so that was always in my mind to get that sound somehow as best as possible.

AAJ: Most will recall Slugs' was where Lee Morgan was shot and killed.

CT: That's true. Though that was only a footnote really to me…I think Jerry and Robert [Slugs' owners] were about ready to let it go because Robert really wanted to get into the restaurant business. [He] was leaning towards moving out of Slugs' anyways, and Jerry wanted, as I understand, to travel, and went to California. The fact that Lee Morgan was killed in there was coincidence.

AAJ: Were you regulars to Slugs'?

CT: Oh, I was. Definitely.

SC: I used to go there when I first moved to town quite a bit until Marion Brown told me that the more people see you in there, the more they know you're not working [laughs].

CT: I was going there late at night if I wanted to hang out…I had a chance to work with Jackie [McLean]…In fact Jackie actually opened up Slugs' for the first time. I recall it must have been around '64 because it wasn't long after when I first started recording with him that he said that we're playing in this place right around the corner from where I lived. There was a long bar, like a beer hall, with sawdust on the floor and the whole bit. And that's how Slugs' got started…It was the place where musicians, my peers at the time, would meet. You need a place like that, and we haven't had that for a long time in New York, where the guys can actually go and meet without having to worry about needing $50 in their pocket in order to get in, and out..

AAJ: What about a quick shopping list of regulars whose visits would always pack the house?

CT: Sun Ra had a cult following as he always had, and which manifested itself over the years.

SC: I worked there with groups like Bobby Hutcherson and Harold Land, with Hank Mobley and [Billy] Higgins, Jimmy Heath, Rashied Ali and Marion Brown. So, I worked there with at least four different groups.

AAJ: Charles, after your mid '70s Strata-East recording Impact, you seemed to stop recording other than a late '80s session, Live in Berlin at the Quasimodo, Vol.1.

SC: Actually, after Impact, what are you going to do?! [both laugh]

AAJ: What have you been up to since?

CT: That's a question that's usually asked by club owners and promoters. "What is your latest recording, so I can judge whether or not I want to hire you or not?" But it's hard to actually say anything other than I put out records when I could, because probably as a musician I had gotten so used to doing what I was doing that that was the only way I was going to do it rather than to go and shop a deal. So, that meant putting out records whenever I could do it. I have always been playing…As you know, certain musicians get written about more than others which is the name of the game. The magazines and publications that carry all of that, people who are following the music, they are more apt to know about someone other than me who isn't written about. But I'm happy, and I'm always playing, just not in like say Blue Note, Birdland, or the Vanguard.

AAJ: When was the last time you guys played in New York?

SC: Well, sporadically, but not with each other. We've been in different contexts.

CT: But Music Inc. hasn't been together like this, where we're playing with the original members, or most of the original members, since the '70s.

SC: I haven't worked with the unit, Music Inc., in twenty-some years.

AAJ: So, it's a real special occasion.

CT: Yeh. And it would really be special if the original drummer [Jimmy Hopps] was around but we don't know where he is.

SC: He might show up. [laughs]

CT: That's right!…Last we heard, he was in New Orleans.

AAJ: Thank you for your time. It's a pleasure and honor.

CT: Yeh, there's a lot more that we can say and that can be said, just not enough time, but that can wait.

SC: Yeh, stay tuned for the book!

This interview first appeared in the July 2002 issue of All About Jazz: New York. Laurence Donohue-Greene is the Managing Editor of All About Jazz: New York.