By Vic Schermer

On the website, Philly Jazz, Jan Klincewicz says that Tom Lawton "is considered by many to be one of Philadelphia's brightest undiscovered talents. His playing is awe-inspiring." On any given Saturday evening at the Four Seasons Hotel, where Tom has performed (among other venues too numerous to mention) for the past 11 years, you will run into several outstanding musicians who have come to hear him play. Instrumentalists and vocalists alike look forward to an opportunity to join him in music-making. Tom is truly a "musician's musician," and at the same time his playing is highly listenable, danceable, enjoyable. In addition to being a pianist who performs solo, with his own groups, and as a "sideman," Tom is well-schooled in classical piano, a jazz composer, teacher of jazz piano at Temple University Esther Boyer College of Music Jazz Studies and Bucks County Community College, and an outspoken journeyman musician who takes his craft seriously and himself with a rare touch of genuine humility.

We decided to interview Tom in order to give our readers a glimpse into the life, musical philosophy, and broader views of an extraordinary musician who yet earns his livelihood on the "circuit," playing jobs ranging from club dates to parties to jazz festivals, always with dedication, the respect of his peers, and a total immersion in the jazz medium. Vic Schermer, a reviewer for All About Jazz and at JJ Johnson Homepage, invited Tom to his office on Rittenhouse Square (Vic earns his bread as a clinical psychologist) on a bright, sunny Saturday in early January. Tom came over prior to his gig at the Four Seasons, and, in a typical thoughtful act, brought a couple of cups of coffee, even though the interviewer was about to offer him some. The interview started with a few warmup questions, quickly turned to Tom's life story, and then covered a variety of musical themes and a discussion of the profession. Read on to catch a glimpse of both deep and light-hearted thoughts about jazz and about what it's like to be a musician "living the life" on a daily basis.

VS: Let's just have a warmup. For these first questions, tell us the first thing that comes to your mind.

TL: Free association?

VS: Yes.

VS: What brand of piano do you best like to play?

TL: Mason and Hamlin.

VS: Who are your favorite five jazz performers?

TL: Dave Douglas, Don Byron, Cecil Taylor, Thelonius Monk, and Miles Davis.

VS: If you were going to a desert island and could take only three jazz albums with you, which would you take?

TL: Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio: Constellations; Michael Formanek: Low Profile; and John Coltrane Quartet Plays Brasilia.

VS: What three classical pieces would to take to listen to on that desert island?

TL: Bach's Goldberg Variations; Lutoslawski Symphony #2; Messian's Catalogue de Oiseau.

VS: If you suddenly came up with a million dollars and had to spend it within a year, what would you do with it?

TL: Probably give half of it to People for People. Herb Lusk has set up computer centers with training for inner city kids. Then I'd get some stable living quarters. Also, I could use a high quality piano, since mine is about to die. Then I'd buy some CD's.

VS: Let's take a look at your background. Where are you from?

TL: I was born in Providence, RI, but I've lived in the Philly area since I was 4, and am now almost 43.

VS: Did your folks encourage your musical interests?

TL: Yes, from the very beginning. My father played classical oboe and jazz sax; my mother plays piano and sings choral music.

VS: Do you remember any radio broadcasts or recordings that may have had an impact back then?

TL: Constantly- my father always had music playing. He had a collection of 78's, those old shellac records, Count Basie, Fats Waller...

VS: Who were your first music teachers?

TL: I did a few years with a beginning local teacher and then the first important ones were affiliated with Bryn Mawr Conservatory, where I went for many years for weekly lessons with Pat Devlin and Horace Alwyne, and the director, Joseph Barone, whose son is the famous classical pianist, Marcantonio Barone. I studied composition, conducting, and piano with Joe Barone.

VS: What was your first 'gig'?

TL: I think it was a concert where I played three or four classical pieces. Then I played high school dances with a rock group called "The Berlin Airlift" (laughter).

VS: When you became seriously interested in music, what type of music turned you on?

TL: Well, I actually do remember the day I became really serious about it, when I heard some recordings of Vladimir Horowitz playing Chopin and Scriabin. I was affected not only by what he was playing, but also the way he was playing it, the color. That was the day it dawned on me that one had to practice...

VS: Were there any local musicians who had an early impact?

TL: Early in my jazz career, which started in 1973, jazz suddenly became the thing I wanted to do. First, there was Gerald Price, who passed away last year, a local pianist out of a swing and bebop school. Then the other important one, at the other end of the spectrum, was the French pianist who lived in Chestnut Hill, Bernard Peiffer (Pronounced Pay-fair), with whom the bassist Al Stauffer played for twenty years. I studied with Peiffer for the last two years of his life. He was a modernist trained at the Paris Conservatory. Between these two diverse instances (Price and Peiffer), and also Al, who even though he was a bass player, was perhaps the profoundest influence.

VS: Tell us more about Al Stauffer, who passed away four years ago. You performed together for many years; in fact, he influenced many Philadelphia musicians.

TL: Yeah, including the guitarist Jimmy Bruno. That's where I first met Jimmy- he was playing in Al's trio.

VS: So Al impacted not only on bassists...

TL: He taught improvisation for all instruments. You had to know your instrument, in order to benefit from the universals he was teaching. I studied improv with him for five years.

VS: Tell us more about Al.

TL: He was a "funny" mixture, very simple as a person yet complex as a player, very down to earth. As a player he was very rooted in Paul Chambers, Ray Brown, Jimmy Blanton in terms of his foundation, but he was a modernist on top of that, but a type of modernism that was rooted in the traditional role of the bass. There have been other bassists who expanded its role, and at times lost the roots, but he stayed within that framework. Plus, he was one of the most versatile musicians- he could play Dixieland with guys in Atlantic City, old time swing, bebop, completely free exploratory music, and all the shades in between, and still sound like himself, his own style.

VS: So if our readers listened to your album "The Al Stauffer Trio: Things Ain't What They Used To Be," they could get a sample of Al's playing?

TL: Even though Al's great on that album, it gives only a tiny hint of what he could do.

VS: Al was certainly a major music-making partner for you. What other musicians have you worked with? With whom do you feel most close?

TL: At this point, we're covering a twenty-five year span. I've gotten different things from different people. For influence in basic phrasing and straight ahead playing- Larry McKenna, tenor sax; Sy Platt on trumpet. Currently Ben Schachter is one of my favorites; we collaborate on some projects, and even though we have different views of modernism, we're both rooted in tradition.

VS: What do you mean by "modernism"?

TL: Well, it's a very loose phrase. It doesn't mean anything except that we're not content to play in a "standard" way.

VS: Is there a difference between what you call "modernism" and "third stream jazz?"

TL: "Modernism" is an extremely general category. "Third Stream" is a term coined by Gunther Schuller, and is now being perpetuated by Ran Blake at the New England Conservatory- they have a department by that name and may even have a copyright on the term. I recently came across their position paper on what third stream is and is not. At the time it referred to musicians who were influenced by both classical and jazz, and I would fall into that category, but the strict third streamers are more particular about the definition.

VS: Is Ornette Coleman considered third stream?

TL: He did associate himself with them in one or two recordings. Actually, he is one of my favorite musicians. I should also mention John Coltrane among my favorites.

VS: You're going to Zurich this month- can you tell us about what you are going to do there?

TL: Actually, it's a bit of a mystery. There'll be a jazz and classical violinist, Diane Monroe, who recently joined the String Trio of New York, who've been a force on the jazz scene for a while. Diane has also been in the Uptown String Quartet that worked with Max Roach. She's from Philly, a Curtis graduate. She's invited me to do a private concert with her in Zurich.

VS: I'm reminded of that well-known set of recordings by Oscar Peterson, "Especially for My Friends," from a series of private concerts he gave for a German businessman. By the way, I wanted to get your take on the fact that some American jazz artists seem to have found a home in Europe. They say that audiences are more receptive to jazz there. Do you think jazz musicians are more supported in Europe?

TL: In some ways, yes. The average person is no more into jazz than here, but audiences there are unbelievably receptive, and there's a general cultural respect. Europeans are brought up with a favorable attitude towards the arts. However, once you live there, you scuffle as much as anywhere else for day-to-day gigs, and they don't pay much at their local clubs. I understand it can be rough if you live there.

VS: Can you tell us about your own European experiences?

TL: The Norway and Finland Festivals were with Don Byron. I filled in for Uri Caine, who is an excellent pianist from Philadelphia. I also participated in an international jazz piano competition in Paris, run by Martial Solal, the best French jazz pianist. I performed three concerts and made it to the finals.

VS: Don Byron sometimes plays Klezmer Jazz...

TL: He has numerous projects. I worked with his "Klezmer-influenced" band, doing the music of Mickey Katz, mostly. When we did it live, it became much more free-form than the recording. In the middle of a Klezmer arrangement, Byron would wave his arm, and we'd go into free atonal improv, or he'd point to a particular instrument and we'd weave a different sound, and then- boom!- back into the Klezmer beat...

VS: To change the topic, you've accompanied several fine jazz vocalists. Of those, whose singing do you especially appreciate?

TL: I'm one of those instrumentalists who enjoys working with vocalists. I wouldn't want to just be an accompanist, but as part of my work, I actually enjoy it very much. I get phrasing ideas from listening to recordings of Carmen McRae or Sarah Vaughan or Ella Fitzgerald. Locally, there are a number of good vocalists- Zan Gardner, Mary Ellen Desmond, Rose Guardino, Miss Justine, Anne Sciolla, and most recently, my wife, Fran Lawton.

VS: You didn't mention any male vocalists: perhaps they are rare!

TL: Actually, there are some very good ones. I just worked in Lancaster (PA) with an excellent vocalist, J.D. Walter, an excellent improviser, one of the closest to a horn player. He mixes different influences. In Philadelphia, there's Lou Lanza.

VS: Which of the piano greats do you admire the most?

TL: They're all certainly great. When I first became involved in jazz, I was excited by Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Art Tatum... I listen to non-pianists- Ornette Coleman, Dave Douglas- a great trumpet player and composer. What Dave's doing now embodies what I would like to do, a real mix of composition and improvising over varied types of formats. Of traditional pianists, one of my favorites is Wynton Kelly- his sense of swing and the way he bounced was amazing. Martial Solal, Bernard Peiffer for a fairly adventurous French school, and a current player in that school, Jean Michelle-Pilc. The avant-garde Cecil Taylor, Marilyn Crispell, Myra Melford, Irene Schweizer, I forgot to mention Monk, Andrew Hill, McCoy Tyner, oh- and Herbie Hancock- how could I forget him? Oh, and Keith Jarrett...

VS: This question may reveal my naivete, but when you improvise, are you thinking primarily about chords, improvising around the melody, or following Miles Davis' idea of modal improvisation? What can you say about the way a jazz musician improvises, especially yourself?

TL: Well, it's a mixture- part of the modal idea originally meant using less chords, less reference to harmony, for example borrowing from African music where harmony was less important than melody and rhythm. In that sense the chords dictated what mode Miles would be in. Even when you listen to those tunes, when Miles or Trane (John Coltrane) play them, they go out of the mode constantly. The melody in some ways may always be in the back of your mind subliminally- it depends on the type of tune: sometimes I think chordally, sometimes melodically, usually they are inseparable in a straight-ahead context. When you start extending the parameters, sometimes you can think melodically almost as an independent "hovering above" the chords or bass line.

VS: Do you have a "philosophy" or "approach" to jazz, a point of view you can articulate, a school of thought with which you identify?

TL: Basically, I guess you could say I love almost the whole tradition. One of my pet peeves is that the critics and historians really don't recognize the importance of the avant-garde movements that happened in the '60's and '70's and then the new developments of the '80's and '90's. They regard this as a "footnote". True, some of the music was indeed bad, but there has been some really fine work that extended the parameters of jazz. We hear a lot about the "young lions" movement, Wynton Marsalis, Roy Hargrove, Javon Jackson, Mulgrew Miller, Stephen Scott, Christian McBride. They're great players, but shouldn't be lumped under one "neo-conservative" umbrella. If I've learned anything, you can't judge a player by one or two performances, or even one context, because they may later surprise you on a different recording or performance. The most adventurous or satisfying music for me is- for want of a better term- the "Knitting Factory Camp." It's hugely diverse, there's just about every level of improvised music fused with composition, from the very free, with or without chord changes, classical music influence, world music influence, ethnic influence. Sometimes I wish I could be a professional consumer and hear all this stuff. Dave Douglas, Don Byron, Myra Melford...

VS: The Knitting Factory to which you refer is a performance center in Tribeca, Manhattan, which has a number of venues- poetry, music, performance art, a larger version perhaps of the Painted Bride here in Philadelphia. So an "approach," so to speak, developed at the Knitting Factory?

TL: Yeah. The term avant-garde has no meaning now, because there's been nothing totally new since the 1960's. The way it happens now is a consolidation of diverse influences into a satisfying whole which mirrors the performer's or creator's own vision.

I'm not sure that dividing jazz into schools of thought is particularly useful. I find that it's the marketing situation which often makes people become typecast. I like to keep my hands in five or six styles of playing. My goal is to sound like myself whether I play standards, bebop, free improvisation, original tunes. I think eclecticism can work in ones favor. Its danger is that you may lose a sense of identity, but I think you can be eclectic and still have an identity. Plus, we're at a totally different point in jazz history. When Louis Armstrong, Lester Young came up, they didn't have a huge recorded legacy which defined what jazz was- the longer we go on, the bigger the recorded legacy, the bigger the body of critical acclaim given to certain icons in jazz. We inherit far more when we come up in jazz today. We are forced to learn the whole history and still try to sound like ourselves. On the one hand, tradition is a very strong force in jazz, yet part of the tradition is breaking tradition. The tradition breakers have absorbed a lot, usually very thoroughly. Occasionally, there's someone like Cecil Taylor, who took Monk and Ellington's "fractured" ideas while the rhythm session is still straight ahead. You can hear how he came out of their tradition, while later he dispensed with counting time, etc. While Ornette Coleman may never have played bebop, he came up in R&B and blues bands, which informs his playing. He's probably the most accessible avant-garde player because you always hear the blues in there.

VS: I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Bill Evans once in your conversation. To me, he's one of the greatest pianists and creative forces of all time.

TL: That's true. Whether they've consciously checked him out or not, 95% of jazz pianists owe much to him- certain ways of voicing chords, which are now ABC's- ways of playing certain lines or of complementing a right hand line with a left hand chord, texturally, and in a general way. He got some of it through Wynton Kelly and others.

VS: Let's shift gears and look at the impact of classical music on jazz. You have a strong classical background- you trained classically, members of the Philadelphia Orchestra often hire you for their social functions (!), you have an interest in composition. So you are very much into the interface between classical and jazz. In the movie, Round Midnight, Dexter Gordon, in the role I believe of a synthesis of Bud Powell and Lester Young, when sharing with his young friend and supporter, says he was influenced by Debussy. The impressionist style has had a major impact on jazz, and the origins of jazz coincide with the height of the impressionist era. Jazz musicians like JJ Johnson, Bill Evans, Dave Brubeck, were influenced by Stravinsky. I was told that at the recording party for JJ's Brass Orchestra, a friend gave him the score for Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Brubeck studied with Milhaud. Gunther Schuller has had an enormous impact on jazz. Bernstein did. Which classical composers influence the way you think about jazz, the way you perform?

TL: Early on, I consciously thought of an interface between classical and jazz, now I don't think in those terms. But I would say the ideas get transplanted into your language and come out in a different way. For example, Bill Evans voiced his chords with roots in Debussy and Ravel, but his rhythmic context is very different from theirs. For me, I like "lines," and I would say Bach has had an enormous influence on lines. I always tell students that Bach and bebop have a huge amount in common because the lines define the chord changes with detours like passing tones, leaps, changes in direction, mixture of stepwise motion and disjunctive motion. The main difference between Bach and bepop is rhythmic and the use of upper tones like ninths in certain ways. For line, or how you relate to a bass line, even a walking bass is a counterpoint line to what's happening on top of it.

VS: Is the bass walk related to Bach's continuo part?

TL: Yeah, in some way.

VS: Speaking of bebop and related music, these musicians had remarkable facility with chord progressions. Dizzy Gillespie recalled how the originators of bop- himself, Parker, etc.- would sit around before concerts, etc., figuring out wild chord progressions for the fun of it or to freak out other musicians.

VS: Yeah, and they substituted chords for part of the tune...

VS: So part of bebop is not just the rapidity and variations of the melody...

TL: It's in relation to chord changes...

VS: Yeah, they developed some genuinely new chord progressions, then Miles went beyond that with cool jazz.

TL: The cool jazz was more of a modification of bebop, more of an attitudinal change towards the same languange: instead of playing those same lines or chord changes "hot", they played them "cool, " more laid back.

VS: Which classical composers influenced bebop and "cool jazz"? Did Debussy have an impact?

TL: On bebop? It's hard to say...Debussy used the upper parts of chords prominently, ninths, thirteenths, sharp nines, alterations, so in that sense, yes.

VS: What about Milhaud?

TL: Probably, bitonality, hearing two keys at once or stacking up chords in such a way that they function as one. Milhaud, Stravinsky. It's more of a general thing: sounds, textures, form, instrumentation.

VS: Is their jazz based on the twelve tone row?

TL: Yeah.

VS: Ornette Coleman?

TL: No! He calls his approach "harmolodic". Twelve tone rows might include Gunther Schuller, John Carisi, who did some tunes that Gil Evans adapted. Most don't apply strictly twelve-tone- it's more a matter of ideas, sounds, textures, and incorporating them into a jazz language.

VS: Have any American composers had a significant impact on jazz: Barber, Copeland, Ives, McDowell?

TL: All the ones you mentioned except McDowell, who is more of a romantic. When I was a kid, I idolized Bernstein, and one of my favorite pieces was "The Age of Anxiety," which has a couple of 'jazzy' movements.

VS: Bernstein's first performance was at a jazz club in Boston.

TL: He was one of the few to make public statements embracing Ornette Coleman when he first came out.

VS: Some time ago, you told me you were going to New England to study with a woman teacher who was to help you revise your piano technique.

TL: We're talking about Dorothy Taubman (The Dorothy Taubman Institute). She has a two-week workshop every summer at Amherst College. I went there, and then followed up with Bob Durso in Philly. I spent seven and a half years learning how to play the piano from scratch!

VS: Can you describe the difference between the old and the new technique.

TL: 98% of traditional piano teaching is wrong, physically. It's based on the premise that you have certain fingers that are weaker than others and that you have to strengthen them to make them equal. I spent twenty years doing that, and it never happened. My playing got more and more tight. The more I did the exercises, my technique got worse- instead of getting looser, I got tighter and less musical. The Taubman technique says the origin of every motion is connected to the forearm. The forearm, hand, and finger always move together as one, and an infant has enough strength in the forearm to make any finger feel equal to that of any other without any work. The movements are designed to put you in the optimum position for every note, which means that once you get past the boring mechanics, you have more control over the sound of every note. Now, it took me much longer to change over because I never stopped performing. If I could have taken off for a year or two, it would have been ideal.

VS: Do you know any classical pianists who have adopted this technique?

TL: Oh, sure. I'm one of the few jazz pianists who have done it. Almost all are classical: Bob Shannon, Nina Tichman (who recorded the complete works of Copeland for piano).

VS: What about Murray Perahia?

TL: He's a funny case, because that's where this method becomes controversial. He's had injuries off and on for the last few years, like Gary Graffman and Leon Fleischer. The results of Taubman's method are indisputable, but her musical ideas are very controvertial, so that some of these famous people who have hand problems dismiss her because of her musical ideas, or they don't have the time or inclination to take a couple of years off and just revamp. Now, Leon Fleischer, when he made his comeback a few years ago, that was after a stint with Taubman, and he actually endorsed the technique, and then got so busy with conducting, he decided to just conduct and play left-handed works. There are people who put the method down without having experienced it in a big way.

VS: But you're very enthusiastic about it.

TL: Yes, I endorse it wholeheartedly.

VS: Let's talk a bit about your interest in composing. Several months ago, you performed with Ben Schachter, Tom Cohen, and Howard Britz in the Tom Lawton Quartet at Montgomery County Community College. You performed several of your own compositions, including a longer piece at the end...

TL: "Archetypal Archives?"

VS: Yes. I asked myself at the time to what extent that was formally written...

TL: Hardly any! There's a melody in the beginning and then a bridge to a vamp- I guess you could say that the vamp is Rite of Spring-influenced, very primal rhythm. Basically, those are the only written parts, you just come out of the mood set by that and go on from there like a journey. There's no recurring set of chords to adhere to.

VS: You would seem to have been born to compose, so to speak, so why don't you do more big band arrangements or composing for movies, plays, theater?

TL: In general, I've done more writing, but I really like to write for a small jazz group and leave lots of room for improvisation. The main purpose for writing to me is to set up different formats and different moods for improvisation. As a matter of fact, in March, I've been commissioned by the Network for New Music to write a piece for their festival dedicated to the classical composer, Stephan Wolpe. I'm writing a piece for Sy, Ben Schachter, and myself to play entitled "Roadmaps for Trio." I'm hearing it in my mind as a sextet, but budget-wise we have to stick to a trio. It's going to incorporate a lot of improvisation, but will set up things compositionally to introduce pockets of improvisation in various forms. At times, one instrumentalist might play a written part, while the others improvise over or under it. So I'm into this idea of integrating composition with improv. But, personality-wise I'm the type to err in the side of improv. I don't think it would sustain my interest to play something more than a few times if the notes could be played the same twice!

VS: Can you tell us about some of the students you've taught and whose work you appreciate.

TL: There have been a number of good ones- they are working gigs all the time now. Ted Yusko, Jamar Jones, Fran Danis, Jeff Baumeister, Anthony Belfiglio, Lisa Yim, Matt Hochmiller, Judi Wasko, Tom Petrowsky.

VS: When you have a very talented student, above and beyond technique, what is the message you'd like to convey to those students?

TL: That's an interesting, all-encompassing question. What I find especially in jazz, what people really need is a few years of fairly boring learning of the language and the craft aspect, assuming that later they'll put the art part together. Often, it's lack of craftsmanship which prevents people from playing artistically. As they evolve, phrasing is something I'm big on. The most valuable training is work on phrasing, how certain notes may stand out from others, have certain timbres, listening through a space or a rest so the next phrase follows from the previous one. We all wrestle with the battle between continuity and contrast, how to make something sound as a whole. Some students have to be 'performance coached': set up an intro, set up the mood, play the tune, make a separation yet connection between the first phrase of the improv and what came before. OK, I know what you're trying to say, but the listener won't be able to hear it, so here's how to get it.

VS: Charlie Parker said, "If you haven't been through it, it won't come out of your horn." Do you try to help musicians access their personal experience and express it in the music?

TL: Well you can't teach that directly, but you can cultivate the awareness.

VS: Do you agree art must emerge from life experience?

TL: I don't think about that all the time. Occasionally, something personal will trigger a musical idea, but most of the time it's operating at an unconscious level and I'm not necessarily thinking about it.

VS: I'd like to ask you some questions about the music business. First of all, What's your opinion of jazz music critics?

TL: They serve a purpose. However, I often disagree with them. I especially object to what I call "note counting." It has become fashionable to discuss players who play many notes without examining the context of these notes, i.e., are they shaped well into phrases and lines, with rhythmic interest and infused with emotionally relevant content? Another beef I have with the critics is that they diminish the importance of the local scene. Now, it's good to have big name players come into town, but the day to day work of many good musicians in Philly who grind away at gigs every day, and at every gig they play, no matter how humble it is, play their hearts out and treat it as if it were the Village Vanguard. The critics will too often dismiss them with a wave of the hand.

VS: Which jazz critics to you really respect?

TL: The one I respect the most for his openness, his receptivity to the music is Francis Davis, who has roots in Philadelphia. Then there's Fred Bruchard of Jazz Times.

VS: I've always been fascinated that jazz is often performed in places where people go- not to hear music but to eat, drink, dance, etc. Jimmy Bruno once gave a formal concert at the Ethical Culture Society and joked that he was uncomfortable because he couldn't hear the plates rattling (laughter). When you perform, are you acutely aware of whether your audience is really listening to you?

TL: Ideally, my attitude is to try to get into it as if people are listening. I'd be bored if I were to do a gig too casually. My attitude is that I have to find a way to get into that tune to make it interesting to myself. And the more you have that attitude, the more ready you are when you have a night when people are really listening and tuned in. And at any job, there's always one person who let's you know they were listening.

VS: Is there any club where you feel you get an especially attentive, positive audience?

TL: There are several places where I can let loose. The good listeners are almost always in a minority. At the Four Seasons, I do have some freedom, and I just play the way I want to and everybody seems to like it. But I rarely play avant-garde there. [Tom usually performs at the Four Seasons on Logan Circle, 18th Street and Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia in the Swann Lounge 9PM-1AM on Saturday nights. Call the Hotel (215-963-1500) if you want to be sure he'll be there on a particular Saturday.]

VS: Let's talk about the financial end of the business. It's not a pleasant topic. Most jazz musicians struggle financially, and they often play jobs they wouldn't otherwise just to make ends meet...

TL: Yes, but I'm luckier than most in that respect, partially because I play the piano- pianists have the widest selection of work, because they can play alone, or accompany various types of instruments and groups- everybody needs a pianist.

VS: Oscar Peterson had a period of several years when he earned a well-deserved reputation for being a great accompanist but lost out on some leader and solo gigs.

TL: Really? I'd say right now I work such a variety of jobs, and I've learned I have to stay in touch with my own development that's independent from the "gig world" so that's not a problem.

VS: Over the years, have you thought of ways that jazz musicians could get more respect and financial security?

TL: I wish there were more grants for performing, composition. There are of course Pew Trust, National Endowment for the Arts. But there are very few grants available. I would like to see more places like The Painted Bride but where musicians with works in progress, or putting together new groups, could basically play any time and have a viable scene independent of the regular workday gig, to develop good music.

VS: How come outstanding local musicians like yourself and Jimmy Bruno don't hire out as studio recording musicians, where you can make considerably more money?

TL: You have to commit to doing that full time- if you say 'no' once or twice, you go back to the bottom of the hiring list. So you're giving up much of your freedom in terms of free-lancing, etc. I don't want to be poor, but maintaining musical and personal freedom is more important than big bucks.

VS: Let's talk about what your goals are. First of all, where, in addition to the Four Seasons, can people hear you play?

TL: The Willis Town Grille in Paoli, I do a duo with the best bassist I've heard anywhere, Lee Smith. I feel the most comfortable with him of any bassist since Al Stauffer died. He's unbelievable. He's also worked with Trudy Pitts at Meiji-en Restaurant for years. I work at the Forager House in New Hope, on some Friday evenings with Mary Ellen Desmond who is an excellent vocalist. In terms of my own more avant-garde thing, March 21 (1998) at Temple University, Rock Hall (Broad St. and Cecil B. Moore Avenue, Philadelphia), as part of the Stephan Wolpe Festival, my "Roadmaps for Trio" will be performed under the aegis of the Network for New Music. Prior to that, on March 19th, we're doing the same piece at Ursinus College in Collegeville, PA.

VS: What are some projects you'd like to undertake in the future?

TL: I'd like to develop a book of original material that a group can play and keep expanding on. It's hard to find exactly the right players for each project. My model is Dave Douglas, who has four or five different groups which he continually writes for and improvises with. Each group has a different personality. He records with these groups and then he is so prolific. He does such a diversity of his own music and each group has time to develop musically.

VS: Well, what about the Tom Lawton Quartet?

TL: In reality, no one in that group is available on a regular basis. I enjoy sometimes being a leader and sometimes a sideman. I get stimulated as a sideman, and being in someone else's group feeds my own work.

VS: Are there particular musicians you would like more of an opportunity to work with?

TL: Oh, sure. In the best of all possible worlds, Dave Douglas.

VS: Have you ever played with him?

TL: Yes. He was with us with Don Byron in Europe. I'd also like to perform with Mark Feldman, violinist; Tim Hagans, trumpeter; Drew Gress, bass player. Many others.

VS: Well, Tom, I'd like to thank you for doing this interview. I personally found it to be a very enjoyable and enlightening experience.

TL: Your questions were well framed, and I probably ran off at the mouth too much.

VS: Not at all. Thank you, Tom.

Thanks go to Lew Krieg of Mt. Pocono, PA for his helpful suggestions and comments regarding this interview.