By Allen Huotari

The practitioners of freely improvised music have often (maybe too often) been likened to circus performers on a high wire act or trapeze. When successful, the results are miraculous to witness. When unsuccessful, you’d better pray there’s a safety net.

Although the metrics used to gauge the success or failure of freely improvised music are murky at best (but more likely non-consensual, if not non-existent), it can be suggested and possibly agreed that the practitioner of freely improvised music who chooses a non-standard musical instrument could be likened to the aforementioned circus performer who performs his or her feats of daring while blindfolded.

In other words, he or she had better be extremely well trained.

Enter Philip Gelb, who chooses to improvise on the shakuhachi, a wooden flute of Japanese origin (more on this in the interview). Whereas it requires a courageous soul to perform freely improvised music, it requires absolute daring to do so on an instrument not ordinarily associated with jazz, classical, or rock music. For added measure, Mr. Gelb doesn’t confine himself to pure improvisation, as tunes by John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, and Duke Ellington are also part of his repertoire.

Mr. Gelb began playing the shakuhachi while an undergraduate student of anthropology at the University of Florida. His subsequent graduate coursework in ethnomusicology coupled with a strong interest in improvisation and experimental music led him to found and direct the New World Ensemble at the FSU School of Music. His responsibilities as director resulted in holding a number of artists in residence projects which included: George Lewis, Richard Teitelbaum, Wadada Leo Smith, Derek Bailey, Davey Williams, Ladonna Smith, Shaking Ray Levis, and Lawrence "Butch" Morris (whose residence culminated in a recording as part of the TESTAMENT (New World/Countercurrents) 10 cd box set).

Although most of his performances have been in the San Francisco Bay area, Mr. Gelb has performed at numerous times and places throughout North America, Japan, and Europe over the past 4 years.

In addition to solo performances, Mr. Gelb can be heard in a number of ongoing collaborative endeavors. These include duet work with computer/interactive electronics composer Chris Brown, pianist Dana Reason, koto player Shoko Hikage, and percussionist Abbey Rader. He also frequently works with composer/accordionist Pauline Oliveros, and sporadically performs in quartet with violinist Carla Kihlstedt, contrabassist Matthew Sperry, and guitarist John Shiurba. Finally, Mr. Gelb has also collaborated with dancer Eri Majima, an effort that has resulted in a video tape entitled “Water Dream” (which also includes Chris Brown).

Two recordings featuring Philip Gelb were released earlier this year. The first, INDISTANCING (Leo Lab), finds Mr. Gelb as part of an improvising trio with koto players Brett Larner and Shoko Hikage. The second, BETWEEN/WAVES (Sparkling Beatnik), was released under his own name and finds him accompanied by accordionist Pauline Oliveros, saxophonist Jon Raskin, pianist Dana Reason and computer/interactive software performer Chris Brown in a pair of improvisations (one with Brown and the other with Ms. Oliveros, Mr. Raskin, and Ms. Reason).

To coincide with the West Coast tour in promotion of INDISTANCING (dates listed below), Philip Gelb kindly consented to this interview, which was conducted via e-mail in August 1999.

Brett Larner/Shoko Hikage/Philip Gelb INDISTANCING West Coast Tour dates

Thursday, September 2, 1999 8pm San Francisco Luggage Store Gallery

Saturday, September 4, 1999 2pm Big Sur Henry Miller Library

Saturday, September 4, 1999 8pm Carmel, CA Martin Laborde Gallery

Friday, September 10, 1999 8pm Ventura, CA The Daily Grind

Saturday, September 11, 1999 8pm Los Angeles China Arts Object Gallery

other upcoming performance dates

Thursday, October 7, 1999 8pm Berkeley Julia Morgan Theater solo set and ensemble set

Friday, October 15, 1999 8pm San Francisco Clarion Music Center w/ Pauline Oliveros - accordion; Dana Reason - piano and Shoko Hikage - koto.

Saturday, October 16, 1999 8pm Berkeley Center For New Music and Audio Technologies (CNMAT) 1750 Arch street w/ Pauline Oliveros - accordion; Dana Reason - piano and Matthew Sperry - bass

AAJ Reviews of recordings which feature Philip Gelb:

BETWEEN/WAVES September 1999 (reviewed by Glenn Astarita)

INDISTANCING June 1999 (reviewed by Allen Huotari)

BETWEEN/WAVES June 1999 (reviewed by Nils Jacobsen)

INDISTANCING May 1999 (reviewed by Nils Jacobsen)

ALL ABOUT JAZZ: To begin with, many AAJ readers may not know what a shakuhachi is. Could you please describe this instrument? (please include variations in the instrument and how it differs from similar instruments used in other cultures)

PHILIP GELB: Shakuhachi is an endblown, bamboo flute from Japan. It has 5 holes and a rather unique, outward cut mouthpiece. It probably evolved from the Chinese shiao, which is an endblown bamboo flute with 6 holes. The modern shakuhachi is at least 300 years old but could be much older. Historically speaking, it comes from Buddhism and most of the original music, called Honkyoku are meditations, not originally created for performance. There are many different schools of shakuhachi playing. I have been focusing my traditional studies on the Honkyoku of the Meian Ryu that has been transmitted through Jin Nyodo. I study with Kurahashi Yoshio whose father (and first teacher) studied with Jin Nyodo. I have also studied Kinko Ryu and Do Kyoku, 2 other schools of shakuhachi playing.

AAJ: Your bio indicates that you began studying shakuhachi while a senior at the University of Florida. Why, what, or who was it that inspired you to pick up the shakuhachi?

PG: The sound! I had heard shakuhachi in soundtracks of Japanese and kung fu films but did not know what it was. I first heard the instrument in person when visiting ethnomusicology teacher, Dale Olsen gave a demonstration of the instrument in a world music class that he was teaching. A week after that I began my first lessons with him.

AAJ: You have referred to studying two different “methods” or “practices” of shakuhachi playing in the Honkyoku tradition: Meian Ryu and Kinko Ryu. Could you please elaborate on Honkyoku? Could you also please briefly describe both the similarities and differences between Meian Ryu and Kinko Ryu? (and please correct any misinterpretations that these questions may have)

PG: No misinterpretations though I might have some in my answers :)

Meian Ryu is believed to be the closest to the original style of shakuhachi playing as practiced by wandering monks (called Komuso). Honkyoku are the various pieces transmitted through different Buddhist temples. Monks and priests used these pieces as meditations as well as for practicing certain rituals such as birth and funeral rites. In addition the instrument was used for a means of begging.

Kinko Ryu is about 300 years old and is a very rigidified approach to shakuhachi. I do not find the freedom that I desire in that schools approach to playing which is why I have focussed more on the Meian and Do Kyoku styles.

AAJ: What, if anything, do you think makes shakuhachi playing unique? Is there anything that makes playing the shakuhachi unusually difficult? If so, what are some examples?

PG: There are many things that make shakuhachi difficult. The amount of air that it takes is quite surprising when you first begin to blow into it. The intense deep breathing that it takes to play shakuhachi is a very healthy aspect of practicing the instrument. Some of my students study shakuhachi particularly for this benefit. The other difficulty is you only have 5 holes to work with. Silver flute, clarinets, sax, etc all have a very elaborate system of levers and pads. Shakuhachi merely has 5 holes. All the 12 pitches of European music as well as many microtones are used in the traditional music of shakuhachi! And there are a great variety of attacks and timbres. One could argue that the composers of Honkyoku were interested in timbre more than pitch though we really know little about the performance practice of the players before the last century. It is very common for phrases to contain the same pitch but played with different fingerings and head positions, each giving the pitch a very different timbre or color. This is certainly one of the most unique aspects of the instrument. Honkyoku explored many areas of music that Europe did not touch upon till recently!

AAJ: At this point, the skeptical reader might ask “what does any of this shakuhachi stuff have to do with jazz?” How would you respond to that question?

PG: Shakuhachi has very little to do with jazz. I am not a jazz musician though many of my big influences are "jazz" musicians. There are a few shakuhachi players who are also "jazz" musicians and some players who play jazz in different ways on the instrument. I sometimes play Ellington, Ornette, or Coltrane pieces in my solo performance but I approach them in a different manner than a person whose main musical study is jazz. This all brings to mind that the term “jazz” is a loaded term.

AAJ: Totally agreed that "jazz" is a loaded term. What meaning does it have for you, if any?

PG: Very little anymore. Many of my musical heroes come out of the African American creative music experience. Some of them are obviously tied directly to the tradition of jazz, particularly those of earlier parts of the century. Composers like George Lewis, Muhal Richard Abrams, Braxton, etc. obviously have roots in what is normally called jazz but their interests and knowledge encompasses many other areas of creative music. The labeling of genres does not particularly interest me as many creative musicians in the end of the millennium are involved in a cross-fertilization of genres thus creating new musical forms. The blurring of geographical and cultural boundaries is very apparent in much new music. The fact that a person like myself who grew up a 3rd generation Jewish/Hungarian American from Brooklyn finds himself studying century old Japanese Buddhist music and working at taking that into other forms of contemporary music is but one example of this.

AAJ: Please allow me to rephrase the question that brought us to this point: In your opinion, why should a jazz fan be interested in shakuhachi and/or your music?

PG: No particular reasons to be perfectly honest. :)

If someone is interested in traditional jazz only then I can’t possibly think of him or her wanting to hear my music! However if they are interested in more adventurous jazz a la AACM, or European free music then I think there is a direct connection.

Anyone interested in the ideas of microtonal melodic development or free rhythm should check out traditional shakuhachi music as these ideas have been explored in that area for centuries!

AAJ: You mention that your solo concerts have included music by Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, and John Cage. Have all of these composers had an influence on you? If so, how? As a follow up are there any other influences who should be mentioned?

PG: Those are all definite interests of mine. Morton Feldman is another composer I feel very much influenced by.

The most direct influences I have had are some of the masters I have had the fortune to perform with. Pauline Oliveros, George Lewis and Joe McPhee have all radically made me redefine my approach and understanding to music through my encounters of performing with them.

AAJ: How has working with these musicians accomplished this?

PG: From George Lewis, never take the supposed limitations of your instrument seriously. The limitation is in the person, not the instrument.

From Pauline Oliveros, how to listen and be silent and more importantly how to listen to silence and play with the silence and the space!

As to Joe McPhee…good question and I am not sure how I can put it into words. Joe, George and Pauline all have a very strong spiritual presence in their music (and their very being) that is somewhat contagious. I have spoken to many people who have worked with Joe and all have agreed that playing with him has sent their playing up a notch or two. I can’t explain this.

AAJ: Because of your instrument of choice and music, it is imaginable that a music store could file your recordings under “modern jazz”, “contemporary classical”, “world music”, or “new age”. Do any of these terms hold any meaning for you? Are you comfortable or uncomfortable with the connotations (positive or negative) these terms relay?

PG: The problem is no one knows where to find my stuff in the few stores that actually carry it. Amoeba in Berkeley, a great store that really supports and sells a lot of locally based musicians has my CDs in jazz, Japanese, world, experimental and modern classical. Different CDs are in different categories. Rather confusing. Thankfully none of it is in new age. :)

I appreciate any store that is interested in selling my music!

AAJ: What's the strangest or most unusual project you’ve been associated with thus far? What did you learn from this experience that has proven useful to you?

PG: Some people would say that my trio with Pauline and Dana; shakuhachi, justly intoned accordion and piano is unusual for its instrumentation. One of the problems with playing shakuhachi is that most combinations are deemed unusual. Right now I am interested in developing a shakuhachi/string ensemble along with violinist, Carla Kihlstedt, cellist, Hugh Livingston, and bassist Matthew Sperry. To me these sonorities and timbres work beautifully together though at our performances I am hearing the “unusual” comment come up often.

Shakuhachi and computer duets like my work with Chris Brown do not seem unusual to me at all. Many computer music composers like Chris, Richard Teitelbaum, John Bischoff, Tim Perkis and others see the similarity of the timbral/color approach to shakuhachi and with electronic music. In many ways this pairing is an ideal for both as there is much common territory to explore.

AAJ: What musical lesson or insight have you most recently achieved that you plan to apply to your own future work or style of playing?

PG: I have to think about this one....

AAJ: What have you learned about yourself and/or your music from teaching others?

PG: the more I learn, the less I know. The more I teach, the more I realize I need to study and develop myself more. I have been studying shakuhachi for over 10 years now. In some ways that seems like a long time but then I hear my teacher Kurahashi sensei who has played for 40 years and I realize I have barely learned how to blow a simple note yet.

AAJ: What musicians would you most like to work with that you've never worked with before?

PG: Violinist Carlos Zingaro immediately comes to mind! I have always been intrigued by the way he plays violin with breathiness. He has obviously studied shakuhachi music in depth as it is all over his playing.

Also Joelle Leandre and Fritz Hauser.

AAJ: What is the most alluring aspect of improvisation for you? What do you think is the most popularly misunderstood aspect of improvisation?

PG: The freedoms to make your own choices and to deal with everything spontaneously are the biggest appeal. It is quite a thrill to put yourself out on the edge with much uncertainty about where to go. When it works it is the most exciting way to play music for me.

AAJ: Do you think that there is any idiom or genre of music that is more appropriate for improvisation than any other? Why?

PG: Indian, Persian and Arabic music have been dealing with improvisation for millennia. Studying these systems of music gives a foundation to improvise within that tradition, not necessarily outside of it. Jazz training does the same. European classical music gave up its improvisation roots last century for various political, social and artistic reasons. Unfortunately the result is that most classically trained musicians can’t improvise. They are educated (miseducated?) to NOT improvise but only deal with the written score. There is no musical training for free improvisation that I am aware of. It should be taught along with technique and repertoire from the very beginning. In European classical music there is so much of a distinction between composer and performer nowadays that performers are not taught to be able to make any musical decisions by themselves.

AAJ: What's the funniest or most embarrassing thing that's happened to you while performing or recording?

PG: Hmmmm…nah

AAJ: Do you have any preparatory routines or rituals prior to performing live?

PG: Not really. Stretch out my right hand (which has a tendency to get rather painful from playing too much).

AAJ: You’re about to embark on a brief West Coast tour (and possibly dates in Japan and Russia as well) with koto players Brett Larner and Shoko Hikage in promotion of the trio’s cd INDISTANCING (Leo Lab). What, if anything, should listeners anticipate during these performances?

PG: Something very different than the CD! The CD was our first time playing together and is entirely free improvisation. The upcoming tours will feature some new compositions by each of us. And we might throw some traditional pieces in as well. We play instruments that have hundreds of years worth of tradition and we like to explore some of the older styles in our performances as well as the new, more experimental works.

AAJ: As a follow up, could you briefly recount how you first met Mr. Larner and Ms. Hikage? (from previous correspondence you’ve indicated that the cd liner notes regarding this are inaccurate)

PG: I first came across Brett's name when he released a CD with Braxton a few years ago. Then after I moved to the bay area 2 years ago he contacted me saying he was touring through and wanted to play together to which I readily agreed. A friendship and musical connection has since developed.

Shoko moved to San Francisco soon after I did. Thanks to mutual friends that we both have in Tokyo (where she used to live) we were put in touch with each other. Brett and Shoko already knew each other as they both study at the Sawai koto school. And they had played together already. When Brett decided to visit San Francisco after a year in Tokyo the 3 of us decided to do a concert of improvisations. By this point Shoko and I had been playing together fairly often in duet and in ensembles around the bay area. So the one concert we did last year was released on Leo in the spring, which is my first European release. Now Brett is visiting again from Tokyo and we will do a few West Coast concerts together. This time we will do some rehearsing and write some new pieces.

AAJ: In addition to the imminent tour with Mr. Larner and Ms. Hikage, what else can we expect from Philip Gelb in 1999-2000?

PG: Current plans:

This trio is probably playing in Russia and Japan later in the fall.

I am trying to release a CD with Pauline Oliveros, Dana Reason and Barre Phillips. (any labels out there interested?)

Several concerts planned around the Bay area.

Develop the shakuhachi/string ensemble further and release a CD.

Spring, 2000, Duet tour of the East Coast and Midwest with pianist Dana Reason.

Hoping to return to Europe in 2000 for concerts.

AAJ: To conclude please allow us to examine two of your non-musical interests: movies and vegetarian cooking

What would be your ten Desert Island movie titles?

PG:

Tampopo

The Pillow Book

Casablanca

Eat, Drink, Man, Woman

Annie Hall

Goodfellas

Why did Bodhidharma Leave for the East

Labyrinth Of Passion

Drunken Master

Orson Welles' Macbeth

AAJ: If you had to prepare a dinner for the staff of All About Jazz, what would you cook?

PG: This could be fun. Since you asked, I might as well make your mouth water! :)

Risotto with chanterelle mushrooms, shiitake mushrooms, leeks, roasted garlic and parsley with pecorino romano cheese.

A lentil salad with roasted red peppers, fresh mint, parsley, lemon juice, balsamic vinegar, red onions, roasted garlic and scallions.

Tempeh marinated in masala wine, garlic, oregano, thyme, and rosemary grilled and served over steamed broccoli.

Steamed brussel sprouts with lemon juice, garlic and fresh herbs.

AAJ: Wow. Thanks, Philip Gelb, for spending time with All About Jazz.

Philip Gelb Discography

as leader or co-leader:

Philip Gelb BETWEEN/WAVES (Sparkling Beatnik) with Pauline Oliveros, Jon Raskin, Dana Reason, and Chris Brown

Philip Gelb PURPLE WIND (Ryokan Recordings) with Miya Masaoka, Gino Robair, Dana Reason, Dennis Palmer, Bob Stagner

Brett Larner/Shoko Hikage/Philip Gelb INDISTANCING (Leo Lab)

Abbey Rader/Philip Gelb Duet (Abray Productions)

Smoking Balance(Limited Sedition) with Carla Kihlstedt, Matthew Sperry, John Shiurba

as guest performer:

Dana Reason PRIMAL IDENTITY (Deep Listening Productions)

Butch Morris CONDUCTION #41 (New World/Countercurrents) (Butch Morris conducts the New World Ensemble)

More information about Philip Gelb, shakuhachi, performance, and lessons can be found at: http://www.hooked.net/~ryokan/