By Nils Jacobson
6. The New Sound Order
AAJ: I'm curious how you decided to make these records with the Norwegian musicians (San, Ingoma, and Zimology). Was it through a cultural exchange program, or how did that get started?
ZN: Good question. The Europeans took the initiative. Their Prime Minister was coming out here on a state visit. These people still keep their old traditions, where a king will travel in an entourage. And in that entourage are musicians. They haven't forsaken that. So when we were told of this, they sent out a young man who was doing his thesis on South African music to see if he could find musicians they could comfortably work with. He came up with Norwegian musicians. So this guy came around and interviewed a lot of people and he chose me. With him he brought a bass player and a drummer. And I brought a piano player.
So we met for the first time at Cape Town, at the airport. And from that, where we first met, we were gigging that evening! It was a success. The chemistry was so high that we decided to keep it. When we requested that the Norwegian government support that, and they brought us over to Norway. And we continued that relationship. Now we have been going on for years. They have assisted me in doing my own things, as you can see on the personnel.
But now I would like for them to become part of this Ingoma. That will become not an orchestra of the continent, but an orchestra of humanity. Those who are like-hearted and like-minded, those who desire peace and freedom, are welcome. They can find a place anywhere in the world.
We need to create a new orchestra of clear thinkers--people who are going to put out good energy there. Not based on the tradition and all that, but based on the sound of the music. That is the ultimate connection with the Norwegians. And also we are doing things with Swedish musicians, with a drummer from Iraq and a drummer from India. I think that is going to be a good relationship. They are inviting some avant garde players... You know the trombone player Albert Mangelsdorff? And Eberhard Weber? I'm looking forward to that... something I'm doing in October. So I can see where this whole thing is getting to.
Already I have identified from an orchestra in Zanzibar that world music is based on different theories. Because they're close to Egypt, and we've always been interested in Egypt. All of us in this continent have to understand Egypt and all of these civilizations. So I think we're on to something here. The nucleus of it is already on the continent. And it will introduce a new sound when it comes to orchestral writing, or orchestration. I think it will inject some kind of new energy. Not to take away from the tradition of Mozart, Handel, and those people, but it will enhance that. Once all of these people are combined we are looking at something very dynamic.
So we need the new and old. We need the contemporary orchestra and we need the very very old. All of these traditions will be combined to achieve what we are looking at: the New Sound Order. [laughs]
AAJ: It's interesting that you talk about orchestration and European musicians. Chris McGregor and his Brotherhood of Breath had something really unique and new to say within that context. He brought together some sort of formal structure with total freedom, in a way. His big band was allowed to go where it needed to go.
ZN: A lot of things, like the Brotherhood of Breath... I am told... they used to tell me that when those cats landed in Europe--the sextet became a quintet when the tenor player died--they changed the scene in the UK. It was catching on, playing that way. People were playing straight, but these guys were playing inside/outside. And the people who understood that...
Well, again, Ornette [Coleman] and Don Cherry were going through London. They had Mongezi Feza on cornet and Dudu [Pukwana] on alto. And Don Cherry sounded like Mongezi--the same thing with Dudu and Ornette. They went mad! They said, "where are you from?" They didn't delay--they went into the studio the next day...these guys, they were never playing anywhere. So, it's the same thing I was talking about... what we need to rediscover.
AAJ: I hope it works. I hope you make those connections.
ZN: Again, this should be initiated by the government. It has to understand these things. Already we had our own orchestra here. That is not functional--they have stopped funding it. And the question is: what is it that they are going to fund now? Because they said that this orchestra is not reflecting the changes in the country. Why fund it? Because they are not creative people, they don't know how to fund.
We are here. We can be commissioned. Instead, we have to go and start material with our own funds so we can do this, so we can make a contribution to a growing country. To a dying continent. To a dying world. See, the world has used all of the status quo to mess up people--that's the problem. We have to find ways. It's a big problem, my brother. We have been made to believe that the problem is with Africa and all of this nonsense. The problem is with humankind, forever you will find this problem. All over, and difficult.
AAJ: I think you have a particularly difficult viewpoint, from the standpoint of the history of apartheid and the colonization of South Africa. That's a very heavy weight. It will take a long, long time for South Africa to lose that weight. It takes time. It's taken us a long time here.
ZN: You see, I'm also trying to move away from this kind of issue that is taught based on our history of slavery and all of it. It has a place. I understand and I can appreciate that. But that shouldn't blind us to modern slavery that is taking place right now. We have to address that to deal with it. And as I say, we are affected in many ways--most of South Africans. We have to deal with it. Because history can continue to divide us. You say, "you have a different history with slavery and all of that." But we have slavery going on right now! Other people say that "I and ours enslaved you and yours"--not knowing that we are all being enslaved right now. It's a problem. We have to find a way to elevate the arts and go through this lifetime and honor this.
We have a very very energetic personality in New York. And he's planning to do something substantial about it. My interests are to really work a lot in the States with musicians who have the same vision. And they are capable. Great composers, great arrangers who have been trained in both traditions--Western and African. We're talking about the great Yusef Lateef--who has written for orchestra, and he studied in Ghana and West Africa for years. We're talking about Randy Weston here. A lot of people who are capable.
I'm really marveling at what Wynton [Marsalis] is doing with the Lincoln Center. I wish we had a platform like that, my goodness, to address this in our small way. Government, again, should create such things.
AAJ: Wynton is quite controversial here.
ZN: We understand, we understand. But at least something is happening. It may be controversy, but something is happening. And it's not for wealth--it's for the betterment of everybody. He cannot hurt people that much. It may be controversial, but it's happening.
AAJ: I think that if you are a young musician in this country and you want to find opportunities, you usually go to New York.
ZN: Right. You have some good things happening in Chicago, though. Interesting music there.
AAJ: Yes. And historically, too. Chicago has been a great place for the music.
ZN: Yeah. That gave birth to the whole AACM movement. I managed to make contact with those folks there. And these are things that we need to work on, you know?
We managed to make a contact in the UK through the Brotherhood of Breath--Chris McGregor's movement. So yeah, we now have all these contacts we want to make to understand. We have to go out there to get that book, the Brotherhood of Breath book. Because that was our legacy. So I did a whole tour there with British musicians who had lived and played with those musicians, so we got a history from them. We got the book back home. And I'm told John Tchicai is now in LA, in California. We need to get in touch with him. All of this will be brought together and we can continue, now that we have the freedom to tap into this legacy.
That's what our independence means to me: that I can move freely and interact with the people I want to interact with in order to understand my legacy. I'm just taking advantage of it.
On to Part 7...
