By Allen Huotari

“…necessity is the mother of invention.” - Richard Franck (ca. 1658)

“I just invent. Then I wait until man comes around to needing what I've invented.”– R. Buckminster Fuller

Technological advances and innovations have traditionally been viewed as occurring in a reactive fashion. The need to improve quality of life, the desire to repair a perceived systemic flaw, and the overwhelming drive to make a buck continues to inspire the creation of a number of fascinating (and often baffling) devices, gadgets, contraptions, and thingamajigs.

But clearly opportunities for fame and fortune are inadequate to explain all (if not most) scientific endeavor. As evidenced by the quote from Buckminster Fuller, there are true visionaries who engage in anticipatory design, seemingly content to let the public at large eventually catch up with their technological discernment. In this case, raw inquisitiveness would appear to be the fundamental impetus for creativity, and need is fulfilled by and by.

However in either case, the invention itself would seem to be validated by need.

Can or should invention in the arts be viewed in a parallel manner? If so, what need is satisfied? Do creative acts actually fill a void?

Of course, it can be argued that the function of art is quite different from that of science. Art does not need a reason to exist and artists rarely, if ever, need a reason to create other than to revel in freedom and the sheer pleasure of the creative experience (then again, the complete quote from Franck is “Art imitates nature and necessity is the mother of invention” so maybe there is an underlying purpose to art after all…)

Whether performing and recording as a member of the super-inhumanly virtuosic avant-rock ensemble Dr. Nerve, the tastefully aggressive neo-fusion quartet Tunnels, or on two remarkably diverse and individualistic albums as leader, vibraphonist/composer/improviser Marc Wagnon has quietly, unassumingly, but determinedly been making music that has purely rejoiced in its own existence. This isn’t to imply that the music is self-indulgent or conceited but rather that it seems to have been as much fun to play as it is to listen to.

Now with the formation of Buckyball Music, “a music service company designed to bring musicians together on a variety of levels in performing, teaching, exchanging ideas and sound creation”, founded by Mr. Wagnon and vocalist Sarah Pillow (and named after a recently discovered molecular structure that bears an uncanny resemblance to Fuller’s geodesic dome) maybe a larger audience will take the opportunity to investigate…perhaps listeners are coming around to needing what Marc Wagnon has been inventing?

Of Marc Wagnon’s music, AAJ Modern Jazz Editor Glenn Astarita writes:

“Marc Wagnon is a multidimensional performer who is equally adept at working inside the rhythms, serving as a colorist or displaying amazing four-handed technique as a shrewd yet extremely gifted soloist. A true multitasking individual, Wagnon is a strong leader and bright composer who frequently and altogether stylistically goes genre hopping…A vibist who could probably rip many of his peers to shreds in a cutting contest, Wagnon also excels as being somewhat of a modern visionary and high-achiever whether performing on vibes or as a composer-leader. These attributes enable him to craft unique statements that sound remarkably fresh and somewhat futuristic…to borrow a baseball term, Wagnon is arguably the premier “switch-hitting” vibist in the business. A bold statement? Perhaps, yet the music speaks for itself…”

To commemorate the 1999 releases on Buckyball Records, Tunnels PAINTED ROCK, Marc Wagnon AN AFTERTHOUGHT and SHADOWLINES, and Tunnels WITH PERCY JONES (the latter two being re-releases of recordings from and 1988 and 1993 respectively), Marc Wagnon agreed to be interviewed All About Jazz. This interview was conducted via e-mail in December 1999.

Note: For more information, please refer to the Marc Wagnon/Buckyball Records overview by Glenn Astarita which accompanies this interview for the January 2000 issue of All About Jazz.

ALL ABOUT JAZZ: Let's start with some basic biographical information. Could you please tell the All About Jazz readers where you were born and raised and what your earliest musical memories and/or experiences are?

MARC WAGNON: I was born in Lausanne, Switzerland. My earliest musical experiences included piano lessons, where I had a hard time practicing the music my teacher assigned me, but loved to improvise (my idea, not the teacher’s). My main attraction was the drums, and in particular marching bands, which I joined in school and where I got my first bit of technique. At the age of fifteen I formed my first band with some friends, and I was writing some of the tunes on guitar (I didn’t have a piano at that time), but I decided to be the drummer in the band.

AAJ: Your webpage says that it was while you were at the Geneva Conservatory that you became attracted to the vibraphone and to jazz. Did an interest in the vibraphone lead to an interest in jazz? Or vice versa? Please explain.

MW: I would say that I got turned on to jazz by listening to INNER MOUNTING FLAME of The Mahavishnu Orchestra; at the time I was listening to bands like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson (my favorite), Led Zeppelin, Van Der Graaf Generator...so that record sounded way out and opened many new avenues; I realized that for most jazz listeners at the time, it was not jazz, but I still consider it to be so (which leads us to the question “what is jazz?”). Anyway, I was totally blown out by Billy Cobham’s drumming, and I wanted to know more about those players. It doesn’t take long to get to Miles Davis from there, and at that point Pandora’s box was open. My interest in vibraphone came later. My previous piano lessons and percussion training came in conjunction with this instrument. I went to see a show of Gary Burton and I was amazed what he did with the vibes; he was a real pioneer in the four mallet technique. It inspired me to spend more time with the vibraphone.

AAJ: Since you mention that your previous training in piano and other percussion instruments played a factor with your interest in the vibraphone, how do you feel your training on these other instruments affects your style and approach to the vibes?

MW: To me, vibraphone and other mallet instruments are a combination of both piano and percussion, and most vibraphonists do come from one or the other. It is actually relatively easy to recognize from which instrument (percussion or piano) a player comes from; the attack and the phrasing will differ quite noticeably if you are either a trained percussionist or piano player. Also, an emphasis in rich harmonically stretched lines versus a percussive and rapid succession of notes will be a telltale sign.

I come from the percussionist side, and although I play the piano, I was not trained as a pianist; but it has nevertheless helped me greatly to know my way around a keyboard. I noticed that if I practiced tunes on the piano and in particular worked on the harmonic structure, it would translate into my vibe playing. I am attracted by both sides, so to me the vibes seemed the right instrument. Having already developed my stick technique, it was not something I had to worry about so I could dedicate my efforts to the four-mallet technique, where my knowledge of the keyboard became very handy.

AAJ: When, why, and how did you decide to make music a career?

MW: This is an interesting question. I have always been interested by drums, and I spent a lot of time listening to the Beatles in my early teens; to me it symbolized a kind of freedom of thought, and rebellion against conformity. Next I bought the first Led Zeppelin album and it opened a new door; it was like my perception had been enhanced. It is still one of my favorites, by the way, and the early seventies were such a prolific period, it seemed that everything was possible. It was before record companies were bought by any old corporation, so the creative process was still the bottom line. That uncompromising freedom of thought attracted me, and I wanted to be able to make my mark and participate in this bold and open movement. I wanted to explore new ideas without anyone telling me what to do. I think that ultimately I knew that I wouldn’t be happy doing anything that wasn’t on the edge. And, of course, my love for music - the unique joy that comes from performing and writing - was tantamount to my decision.

AAJ: As a percussionist, do you find a physical or visceral thrill to music making? Why or why not?

MW: I think that there is no other option for me: to play, write, and record music is my life. Without it I would suffocate, so visceral I think it is, but I don't think that it is particularly linked to drumming. It's a common misrepresentation of drumming, to think that it is primarily a "physical" instrument. Just ask an upright bassist, a singer or trumpetist, they will all consider their instrument to be physical, and moreover, drumming is a very sophisticated process which requires as much analytical as muscle power.

For example, in African drumming the rhythms and poly-rhythms are as developed as is counterpoint in western music; the way you feel the beat might change from whichever instrument you happen to be playing, leading to a kaleidoscope effect. You have to be constantly aware of the other instruments, as well as the lead drummer (who has to be aware of all of the other parts), who might make a change by using subtle cues that you have to react to in a split second. There are no meters such as 4/4 or 6/8; those don't make sense in this style so you are always somewhere in between and the variations are endless. In order to be an accomplished drummer you must learn to visualize music from different angles, and have the flexibility to switch between them while playing.

AAJ: Who or what are your most profound sources for influence and inspiration? (this can include non-musical items) Why or how do these influence and inspire you?

MW: I am an observer of the universe, and I think that any given moment is fascinating; that is why I like improvisation. My writing mainly develops from improvisation. I have a hard time putting names on the tunes I write; to me they emanate from anything and everything.

My musical influences are many but I would name these in particular:

Miles Davis, a towering figure in his instinct for sensing the right place at the right time outlined by his successive metamorphoses, is an example on how to keep an open mind;

Although it might be quite remote, I should mention John Cage, who was bold enough to try to put every traditional concept upside-down;

I must also include Robert Fripp and the early King Crimson albums like ISLANDS, which pushed the limits of genres and were very influential.

Besides those guys I was fascinated by Balinese music and its use of metal percussion of all kinds; as well as African and South American percussion styles.

AAJ: What were the circumstances that led to meeting Nick Didkovsky and the formation of Dr. Nerve? As follow up, what did you learn from your experiences in Dr. Nerve that have proven valuable to your career?

MW: That happened in 1983; I wanted to put a band together in NYC and I had met drummer Jim Mussen who had met Nick at the CMS in Woodstock, NY. We arranged a session at his rehearsal studio; I think Michael Lytle, Don Davis and Mike Leslie were there, too. Nick and I both brought some tunes. It was a good group and we decided to keep rehearsing and eventually got some gigs and that was the beginning of Doctor Nerve.

I admire Nick’s irreverence and clarity. He has an inquisitive mind and has found a very interesting formula for his writing, which involves generating music through random series generated by his computer, which in turn becomes the jagged melody lines and audacious counterpoint that is the trademark of the band. It influenced my career two ways, first musically: being also interested in contemporary classical music, it showed me how to mix rock with dodecaphonic technique, and developed my technique on the vibes in a way that I would not normally have done. Secondly, Doctor Nerve was the first band with whom I recorded and toured regularly since my arrival in NYC.

AAJ: Besides Nick D., you've worked with a diverse and talented array of musicians during your career. Who have you learned the most from and what is it you've learned?

MW: I think that I would mention Dave Douglas, whom I met at the Berklee School of Music in 1981, and with whom I performed regularly throughout the 80's. Dave, by being a phenomenal musician, is the kind of person who you will gain and learn from just by playing with him: control, rigeur of interpretation, and clarity of purpose is what he expects from you; at the same time Dave is very open to free improvisation and has a gift to create structures that are allowed to flourish and be constantly refreshed by new musical ideas. He was a big influence in developing the sound of my band.

Secondly I would mention Percy Jones, who I met in the early 90's when we started the first session with Tunnels, which was then a trio. Percy is one of those bright lights acting as a beacon for us musicians lost in the sea of sound; he has an uncompromising ear for finding the hippest groove and tone combination. Besides having created his own musical language, thus starting a whole style on the fretless bass, he his also a great creator of sounds on the synth: give him any sound module and he will turn out the most amazing sounds. It is a great privilege to by able to play with him, who along with Frank Katz on drums, become this powerful rhythm machine which drives you to your limits just to keep up. With Percy I learn that there is always another way to interpret something. He is able to transform any musical idea and make it his own. With Percy all it takes is one note and you know that it’s going to be different.

AAJ: What musicians would you most like to work with that you've never worked with before? Why?

MW: I don’t know; I’d have a hard time deciding, since there are so many great players, and each one different. I am like a kid in a candy store and wouldn’t know where to start. I guess I just take opportunities as they present themselves.

AAJ: You mention that most of your music is developed from improvisation. In this context could you please elaborate on your compositional process? If applicable please do so by using specific tracks from your CDs as examples of your development process.

MW: My favorite instrument for writing music is the piano, and for obvious reasons it is ideal. I spend at least three to four hours on the piano each week working on ideas, approaching it every time with a fresh ear and allowing my intuition to lead me in the direction in which new ideas are developing. There are tunes that come to me in one burst and are more or less done in one session. Good examples of that are "M'tume the Cat" (from SHADOWLINES) and "Quai des Brumes" (from PAINTED ROCK).

"An Afterthought" and "Painted Rock" are the result of a longer process, where I start with ideas developed on the vibes, enter them into a sequencer and develop them from there; I always have about four or five tunes in my head that I slowly develop. I don't write them down until I am satisfied. By doing this I can combine different ideas, borrow a section from one tune and insert it in another. A good example of that is "Bazillus Samba" (from SHADOWLINES) and "Slow Burn" (from AN AFTERTHOUGHT).

I also start directly from the computer and work ideas that way, orchestrating as I go and the results tend to be somewhat different. I wrote "House of Marc" (from PAINTED ROCK) and "Venus Incognito" (from AN AFTERTHOUGHT) that way.

I also used tapes of improv from Tunnels rehearsals and took ideas and developed them. "Area" (from TUNNELS) is a good example of this technique.

Ultimately I'd like to try new techniques and it is really setting aside the time to do it that is the most difficult, but the sources of inspiration come out usually at the least suspected moment, when you allow yourself to go in new directions, and for me improvisation creates a space in which I can let my mind wander and be receptive to the inner workings of my musical personality.

AAJ: Earlier in this interview you mention John Cage as an influence/inspiration. You also referred to an existing interest in contemporary classical music as being valuable in your experience with Dr. Nerve. Besides John Cage, what other contemporary composer interest you and why?

MW: My music has been described as eclectic, and that is probably a good definition. My interests cross over styles, continually seeking a new musical language. Contemporary classical music has systematically searched for such a language, and the experimentation of alternate notation system and composition technique was intense in the middle of the past century. It also had the premises of basic research, meaning that a good portion of it wound up in a dead end, and unfortunately it is that part that most people think of when asked about it. The beginning of the 20th century and the weakening of tonality was a great advance in music. Schoenberg and Berg are my favorites from that period.

Later composers shed even more of the tradition and music structures opened, allowing randomness to appear. Morton Feldman, and particularly John Cage are my favorites, as they opened the way for the use of samplers and noises to enter the realm of musical elements. Due to the widening of this perception of musical sound, a lot of downtown new music, rap, and hip hop musicians took those ideas and added grooves to them in order to make them more palatable to the audience. Dr. Nerve is a good example, since I used to define the music of the band as "Schoenberg meets the Sex Pistols" and it is an excellent mix.

From the 60's on, Steve Reich is my favorite of the "minimalist movement", but I have a preference for the earlier bold experimenters. Their work is the material on which you can develop infinitely.

AAJ: What recordings have you heard lately that have excited you?

MW: I have been listening to a lot of old recordings these days, although I like the last Pat Metheny album. I've been listening to Mingus and some old Duke Ellington, as well as the 70's recordings of Wayne Shorter. I always enjoy listening to LARKS TONGUES IN ASPIC from King Crimson and lately I've been listening again to John Cage Prepared Piano Pieces.

AAJ: The word "fusion" has gotten a bad reputation among some musicians. What are your feelings about this word? Do you feel it is an appropriate word to describe your music? Why or why not?

MW: I am really suspicious at any labeling for art; to me it is like segregation. It reminds me of the border maps that Europeans drew, with total disregard to the tribal peoples of Africa. Musicians have a lot in common with tribes; they travel and freely exchange ideas throughout the world, all with absolute disregard for borders of any kind. Labels belong to marketing. They have nothing to do with art, so as a marketing tool it is tolerable, but with the pro-fusion (that word again!) of genre, it loses its effectiveness. This labeling does not do the job very well, because it creates barriers where there should be none. We are in need of a new approach, one that is more flexible. I am not saying that Mozart and Megadeth should be in the same bin, but then again why not? The more you know, the more you can appreciate, so it all boils down to the distribution of knowledge.

So if “fusion” be the name, I have great respect for the musicians who first bore that title, and so whatever happened to it later is of no importance to me.

AAJ: Could you please elaborate on your philosophy on the use of MIDI with the vibraphone? As with fusion, MIDI has gotten a bad reputation in many ways (e.g., common criticisms are the inhuman or artificial sound; that many first rate instrumentalists sound like second rate musicians because they try to emulate an instrument that they do not understand, etc.) So why MIDI vibes? Many would ask “why distort the natural sound of the vibraphone”? Or more likely “why not use ‘real’ keyboards/synths/winds/etc. ?”

MW: Every period has produced new instruments - in the 18th century it was the fortepiano and I am sure that some people complained that it is was too loud, but when Bach got to try it for the first time, he launched in a long improvisation (yes he was famous for his improv skills) which delighted the audience at hand. Compare the modern instruments to their forebears and you would hardly recognize them; for one the guitar has had many reinventions. Also, phones don't ring any more (real people don't even answer them anymore), elevators, cars, computers... all produce synthesized sounds (which were first produced by musicians experimenting with these new instruments).

The sound environment is changing and music, being an art form, reflects those changes. One can react to these changes by refusing to use them, but this would still be in reaction to them, which therefore gives them significance. In other words, acoustic music was not a particular genre before electronics came around, and now it is.

I agree that using midi to simply reproduce a real instrument is a losing battle; the acoustic properties of the "real" instrument are such that they will never be reproduced by a set of speakers as we know them. But if we follow this argument, then we should listen only to live music and ban all forms of amplification, and this is not the way things seem to be going.

I am convinced that new instruments will appear that use a totally new type of interface with midi, which will not be a keyboard, string, drum pad, or wind controller. For my part I think that the midi vibes (I use a Kat mallet controller) is the closest instrument to something of a new kind of interface, I can use it with mallets, drum sticks, and hands; I can rearrange the keyboard any way I want, and treat it more as a pallet with colors than a keyboard. It also allows me to combine percussion and vibraphone without having to lug around a set of vibes, a pair of congas, percussion of all sort, etc. There is a lot of boring music done with midi and all its extensions, but it is not due to the medium, it is because it is not often used with an open mind.

AAJ: As a music educator, what have you learned about yourself and your music from the teaching of your students?

MW: For one thing it got me to put my house in order - although I studied in a conservatory and then at Berklee, I learned as much by association with others as in school, by going to Bali to listen to gamelan; to Brazil for all the rhythms; and in New York where the rule is learn or leave. You have to take all those resources and make it part of a system that your students are going to comprehend. I am doing most of my teaching with students who are visually impaired so that adds a twist. With them I teach drums, a jazz workshop, a percussion class, and a computer sequencing course. You always learn from your students about music, about yourself, about dedication; it has to be an exchange or otherwise it is boring.

AAJ: What are the most challenging, problematic, and rewarding aspects of teaching visually impaired musical students?

MW: Music is the only performing art form where someone completely blind can excel on the same level as anyone else. Once you start to play, the eyes take a back seat and the only use for them is for reading music, which is important but has nothing to do with music itself. Music allows me to work with my students on a level where their disability becomes much less of one.

On the other hand, what it does do is make me aware of how unfriendly the world is for them; in particular how music software in computers rely mainly on visual interface, which renders it impossible to use without sight. I developed a system using a sequencer, a speech program and a series of macros (series of mouse movements and key strokes recorded and then triggered by one key) so it is possible for my students to use such a program. I teach a class and have several students who are now writing music on the computer, and although a program with built in speech features would be more practical, it allows them to have access to the sequencer, an invaluable tool to the creative musician.

AAJ: Besides your recordings with Dr. Nerve, Brand X, and those on Buckyball, what other recordings have you appeared on?

MW: These are my main recordings. I did a live record with a Swiss trio (sax, bass, and drums) called Nono Diet Bang. They invited three guests for a tour: Cuban trumpetist Juan Mungia, English trombonist Annie Whitehead, and myself. We made a CD called PROFAN on a Swiss label called Bambrus. It was a fun tour and the CD is pretty interesting.

AAJ: What projects can we expect from you during 2000-2001?

MW: Our next project with Buckyball Records is a cross-over CD with singer Sarah Pillow, using baroque melodies re-interpreted for the 21st century. We are going to work with John Goodsall with whom we have already started working; it will also include Percy and some guest artists, and is a really exciting project as it will be hard to categorize, but can go in many musical directions. I am also planning a CD with drummer Mike Clark which is likely to involve Paul Jackson on bass and more. And we’ll do a new Tunnels CD, one that will be more live in its approach than PAINTED ROCK.

AAJ: As conclusion, if you hadn’t chosen music as a career, what might you have chosen instead?

MW: I would be involved in some kind of research. I have a special interest in astronomy, and I've built my own telescope, with which I look at the moon and planets from my roof. There's not much else you can see from midtown Manhattan, but I don't miss an opportunity to get in dark places, deserts and mountains, where you can feel that you are part of this immense galaxy of stars in which we are traveling; I am a great admirer of Buckminster Fuller, after whom I named my music company "Buckyball Music"; he is the one who coined the phrase "Spaceship Earth", and when you look and study the stars you become very aware of your place in the universe - it is both humbling and inspiring.

Thanks, Marc Wagnon, for spending time with All About Jazz !

Marc Wagnon discography

with Doctor Nerve:

OUT TO BOMB FRESH KINGS lp Cuneiform 1984

ARMED OBSERVATION lp Cuneiform 1987

DID SPRINTING DIE? cd Cuneiform 1988

BETA 14 OK cd Cuneiform 1991

SKIN cd Cuneiform 1995

EVERY SCREAMING EAR cd Cuneiform 1997

with various artists:

TRANSFORMS – THE NERVE EVENTS cd Cuneiform 1993

with Tunnels:

WITH PERCY JONES cd Ozone 1993 re-release cd Buckyball Rec. 1999

PAINTED ROCK cd Buckyball Rec. 1999

with Brand X:

MANIFEST DESTINY cd Pony Canyon 1997

with No No Diet Bang:

PROFAN cd Bambrus Rec. 1997

with Sarah Pillow:

PAPER CUTS cd Buckyball Rec. 1997

solo project (as leader):

SHADOWLINES lp Sun Jump 1988 re-released cd Buckyball Rec. 1999

AN AFTERTHOUGHT cd Buckyball Rec 1999

For additional information on Marc Wagnon and his music, visit the BuckyBall Records website at: www.buckyballmusic.com.

Read Modern Jazz Editor Glenn Astarita's January 2000 article: Marc Wagnon: Good Vibes!.