By Fred Jung

There's an old proverb that says, "When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers." The same holds true for jazz labels, because with all the stiff one upmanship that's been going on, with one label being bought out by another and others merging, making huge mega-conglomerates, it's hard to even see the little guy in all the ruckus. And in the jazz fields of grass, the artists suffer most. It would take me a week just to name all the pinnacle figures in the music that have been bumped from the labels. The stress of competition is so heavy that artists, that at one time concentrated on just their music, now have to have an MBA in economics to successfully negotiate these muddy waters. Christian McBride is just one of many young artists that has had to wear these many hats. And he's done it in stride, which is a testament to his character. He sat down with me to talk about being a musician in this climate, his artistry, and the music. It is a candid conversation with who will be one of the pivotal figures in jazz for many years to come, unedited and in his own words.

AAJ: Let's start from the beginning.

CM: I was born and raised in Philadelphia. Born May 31, 1972. My dad and my uncle were both bass players and that's where my initial inspiration came. I started playing the electric bass when I was eight years old. I listened to a lot of R&B and a lot of what was hip at the time, a lot of early '80s pop music like Michael Jackson and Prince. I went to a junior high school that had a really great music program and that's when I took up the acoustic bass. I started learning how to play jazz by way of my great uncle, who I mentioned earlier and all of my teachers at school, who used to moonlight at night doing a lot of gigs on the side, as well as teach during the day. I studied with a lot of my teachers at school as well as one of the symphony players from the Philadelphia Orchestra, so hence started my serious study of jazz and classical, as well as still playing the electric bass on various gigs around town.

AAJ: You ended up going to Julliard.

CM: Yes, I went to Julliard. I went to Julliard for one year. Actually, when I first moved to New York, technically it was to study at Julliard, but I knew that deep down inside it was because I wanted to be in New York where all the cats were.

AAJ: Julliard didn't last long.

CM: No, I had fun though. By the time I got up to New York, after a few weeks, I started gigging around town with a lot of different bands. It was just too much. It was obvious I was going to have to make a decision, either go to school or go on the road and play with these cats. I said, "Well, Julliard will always be there and if need be, I will go back.

AAJ: Who gave you your first break?

CM: Well, it's kind of hard to say because when I was in high school, I met Wynton Marsalis. Obviously, I would have to say that it was Wynton, but when I moved to New York, my very first gig with a band of notoriety was with Bobby Watson's Horizon Quintet. However, I think a lot of musicians knew who I was already, even before I moved to New York because of Wynton. By the time I was in eleventh grade, because of Wynton, Branford had heard of me. Terence Blanchard, Donald Harrison, he had passed on the word to them. So Wynton spread my name out among a lot of musicians on the scene. Between Wynton and Bobby, a lot of ground was covered in the early days.

AAJ: So what were those early days like?

CM: When I think about what it was like my first eight months in New York City, there was a lot of hustling. Not a whole lot of time to get any rest or a whole lot of sleep, but I'm telling you, Fred, I had so much fun that I didn't really mind. I can remember doing gigs in Connecticut. I would take the bus. I'd drag my bass on the bus and stuff like that. I used to play at this club, here in New York, called Augie's with Jesse Davis, alto saxophonist. That's how I came to know a lot of the underground musicians in New York because they used to come up there and sit in. We would play at Augie's every Friday and Saturday. We would play there from ten to four. By the end of the night, my fingers were just be like mincemeat, but it was worth it because I had a lot of fun. It was pain, but I really didn't feel it because I was having so much fun.

AAJ: Do you miss the early days when you didn't have to deal with all the brouhaha surrounding being a leader these days?

CM: Yes, but I am praying, something tells me the more I keep sticking with this bandleader thing and don't get too frustrated, it will really pay off in the long run. The thing is, I think it's harder to lead a band part time than it is to do it full time. If you lead a band part time, than you never can really hit that stride commercially or artistically where it's successful on either side of the fence. If you keep doing it, I think you gain more notoriety and people know what you really do. I'm at a point now where I lead a band eighty percent of the time, but because of my reputation before I lead a band, with playing on all these bands and playing on all these different recording sessions, people still pay close attention to that twenty percent. So it's still like, "Oh, Christian McBride is a bandleader only sometimes." They never think most of the time, only sometimes. I think of some guys who do it one hundred percent of the time. I think it's a little easier for them to lead a band. That's not really a complaint or something I think is bad because trust me, Fred, for me to take time off and to do side projects, trust me, it's a breath of fresh air.

AAJ: At one time, you were on every recording that was being released, do you think because of all that exposure, people started taking you for granted?

CM: Oh, completely. I think one of the reasons why it's important to lead a band seriously is so that won't happen. Even though I still manage to make a lot of recording sessions now a days, you're right, Fred, it's not like it was, but I think there may be this kind of expectation. There was a point where I think in 1993, '94, I was averaging maybe twenty records a year. Even now, I only make maybe nine or ten a year, which is still a good amount, but even on those nine or ten it's kind of like, "Oh, there's Christian again." I'm really trying to focus and concentrate on doing the bandleader thing. Now a days it's really difficult if you don't have a record to tour behind. At the same time, you don't want to keep putting out records, year after year after year, because after a while, people are going to get tired of you. There's a lot of things you have to think about when leading a band.

AAJ: So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

CM: Exactly. Exactly. You can take a pop group, I don't know, any pop group, Boyz II Men or even some of these hip hop groups. They put a record out like once every couple of years now, like Brandy, or somebody like that. They'll put a record out, like one every two or even three years. I look at 1969 or '70, like a group like The Temptations or Stevie Wonder. They would put out two records in one year. I think, "Wow, how was that even possible?" I can't even imagine, just because the market is now a days, I can't even imagine someone that popular putting out two records in one year. I think there was less hoopla and there wasn't so much hype. It really was all about music at one time. It really wasn't so much about coming up with some kind of a great marketing hook to sell records. They would promote a person as they are, "OK, this is Stevie Wonder and this is his work." Same in jazz, "This is Coltrane." Jazz musicians did it too. Between 1959 and 1961, Coltrane came out with what, five albums. It wasn't really all about hype then. It's just about all about hype now. It's almost like you have to, image first, music second, whereas back in those days, you're music would dictate what your image would be.

AAJ: And what if you don't have an image?

CM: Well, it's tough now. I think the main thing is for the artist to realize what his or her purpose is and not let that get in the way of whatever music it is that they want to make. I think those are the people, there are a lot of musicians now who we can think of who really don't get the proper attention they deserve or who get the wrong attention. I think as long as they keep doing what they want to do and don't let anything stand in their way, in the long run, they're going to be very successful.

AAJ: Let's talk about your three albums on Verve.

CM: Well, my first CD, "Gettin' to It," as much as an artist as I am, there's still part of me that pays close attention to the business side and the commercial side, but like I said, I pay more attention to the artistic view. So when I did my first CD, I realized that, "OK, this is going to be my debut statement as a leader so I better come up with something that's very clear. I don't want to put something out that's vague. I want to say that this is my initial statement. This is my opening." So "Gettin' to It" was a very basic, very acoustic, very straight ahead type of CD. It was something that was very easy to grasp, very listenable type of record. I had Hargrove on there and Joshua Redman, people who are more or less, people who I'm affiliated with, because we're all the same age. I knew that on a certain level that that record would almost kind of sell itself. "OK, I've got these quote, unquote other young lions on here and I have some music on here that's really not too difficult to listen to, so I think this will be good to kick off my career as a leader." As I suspected, "Gettin' to It" did very well, commercially and artistically, I think it served every purpose that I though tit would. That album came out in January of '95 and pretty much until my next CD came out, "Number Two Express," which was April of '96, I was able to tour none stop as a bandleader. That whole year of 1995 and the first part of '96, that's literally all I did. I did nothing but take the quartet out on the road, playing the music of "Gettin' to It." When it came time for me to do my next CD, when I did "Gettin' to It," as basic as that CD was, there was always part of me that wanted to do something a little more daring, a little more on the edge. Sometimes I laugh. I have this reputation of being this real straight ahead, kind of, Ray Brown clone, but I knew deep down, that's not really where I am. I really love doing the straight ahead, Ray Brown type of thing, but you know, Fred, I'm heavy into fusion. I'm heavy into funk. I'm really heavily into things that have nothing to do with straight ahead, acoustic music. When I did "Number Two Express," I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I can turn the corner now a little more because I've made my statement with 'Gettin' to It,' the traditional straight ahead record, OK, I've already done that. Let me try something else." So for "Number Two Express," I got Chick Corea and Jack DeJohnette, I mean, what better musicians could I possibly think of to help me turn the corner. It was kind of funny because when the record came out, I think for the most part, I believe the general perception was, "OK, we applaud Christian for trying to stretch out, but we know that's not what he really likes to do. We know that's not really him." It was almost like they really didn't take it seriously, even with Chick and Jack DeJohnette. I'll never forget. One thing that kind of bothered me was, there was a review, the review that came out in Downbeat, I can't even remember who wrote it. Larry Birnbaum, that's who wrote it. He said, basically in a nutshell, "McBride was crazy to call Corea and DeJohnette, because they obliterated him on his CD. McBride should be embarrassed. Chick and Jack are too much for him. He needs to stick with something more basic because basic is what he does." I remember, I just kind of giggled, "OK, here's one of those people that's going to make jazz the elite form that people already think it is." But I think most musicians, I've never really had a problem with people who are musicians or people who really understand the art form, because when it came out a lot of people were saying, "Yes, McBride, we really dig what you did." Unfortunately on the business side, it didn't really work. "Gettin' to It" was actually still selling pretty well when "Number Two Express" came out. Like we talked about earlier about flooding the market, part of me feels like maybe "Number Two Express" came out too fast because people were still checking "Gettin' to It" out. So people who liked "Gettin' to It," now here's "Number Two Express" coming at them and they're like, "Oh, shit. What is this? This is some wild sounding music." Not wild, but wilder than "Gettin' to It." So I think maybe, I kind of, maybe killed the record by putting it out too early. I still got some good mileage out of it. Now coming up to "A Family Affair," now this was the other end of the spectrum. "Number Two Express" came out a year and three months after "Gettin' to It." "A Family Affair" didn't come out until over two years later. I think maybe I waited too long to put that out. I got some good mileage out of "Number Two Express" on the touring end, but not really. Most of '97, '97 was somewhat of a dry year because "Number Two Express" came out in April and pretty much all through '96 and maybe the first couple of months of '97, I had a good little run with the band, but from like April on up until a few months ago, I wasn't able to keep any gigs with the quartet because "Number Two Express" by that time was over a year old and "Gettin' to It" was over two years old, so it was kind of hard to tour with the band. Then by that time, Tim Warfield, whose been my saxophone player all these years, had started playing some gigs with Nicholas Payton's group. So I had to juggle my schedule around his schedule and it just got to be difficult, so when it came time to do "A Family Affair," I said, "OK, I haven't had a record in over two years. I'm doing something which I think should be commercially exciting. I got George Duke on there. I got Vesta and Will Downing, who are pretty big names in the R&B world. This should be something kind of cool." Musically, someone described it, which I think is pretty accurate, they said, "It was the perfect balance between the first and the second record." There's part of the record that's pretty basic. Like "Family Affair," the way we play "Family Affair," definitely could have been a part of the "Gettin' to It," because, I mean, it was really straight ahead, all acoustic, not really much to it. Same thing with the first tune, "I'm Coming Home." Then you have songs like "Wayne's World" and "Open Sesame," which could have worked on "Number Two Express," because they're kind of on the edge, a little wild sounding. So you have the real straight up, hardcore funk stuff like "Brown Funk (For Ray)" and "…Or So You Thought," so I said, "OK, this might work." In retrospect, as much as I hate to think about it, "A Family Affair" was actually worse off commercially more than "Gettin' to It" or "Number Two Express." "A Family Affair" sold less than both those two records, so in retrospect, I wonder sometimes, hindsight is twenty-twenty, I think maybe, and talking it over with certain people, different people, my girlfriend, who works at Def Jam, so she's around all the hip hop guys all the time and talking to the real hardcore jazz fans, they say, "Well, Christian, we know you like to be broad, but maybe that record was a little too broad. You ran the whole gamut on this new CD. You had finger-popping straight ahead. You had some wild Jimi Hendrix, electric sounding shit. You had some real hardcore James Brown sounding funk and to some people that just might be a little too much." Also, I think, had the record been marketed the right way, I agree, it was a whole lot, but that record was marketed as being like this real, and this is almost as bad as being a young lion, they referred to the record as being like a retro-'70s record. I was like, "Yes, we did songs from the '70s, but we didn't play them, at least we didn't intend to play them in a real retro kind of way." So I think people who bought the record were expecting to hear this blatant rip off of Curtis Mayfield or Earth, Wind, and Fire, even the clothes I wore on the record. Now that I think back on it, the way they wrote, like the font of the writing.

AAJ: And it was yellow.

CM: Yes, and the applejack I had on. I can kind of see how someone would have expected this to be a real blatant '70s type of record and they hear the record and they hear all these different things on it. I can see how it could get kind of confusing, but at the same time, I managed to have a really good tour behind the CD. It was kind of difficult because the record didn't sell very well. I think one thing that was successful that will be weighed, what will be really good in the long run, I think I've been able to finally break barriers as far as me having this "Little Ray Brown" type of reputation.

AAJ: You were a product of the '70s. I think people tend to forget that you grew up with the music of James Brown, not Ray Brown.

CM: For some reason, I've always thought that was pretty obvious. You think of any musician in my generation, that's what we listened to. Roy Hargrove, Joshua Redman, Cyrus Chestnut, Nicholas Payton, Greg Hutchinson, all these people in my generation, that's' what we listened to. The late '70s, that's what we were into, so for us to do some kind of song that comes from that era, I think it's pretty obvious to me. I don't understand why someone would have a problem with that. People in the jazz community can be pretty stubborn.

AAJ: But I've seen people grooving to the funk material you play, do record executives and the jazz media not give the audiences enough credit?

CM: It's the truth. It's the truth. I think there are a lot of, I think really, no one, even some of these pop stars now a days, I think a lot of them are much more talented than people will ever know because of the way marketing is now a days. It's all about trying to make a dollar. Before, from the way it seems, up until ten or fifteen years ago, no, I think it was in the disco era. I think the same thing happened to a lot of classic R&B guys too, like James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Earth, Wind, and Fire, a lot of them. A record company, so much, didn't mind taking a loss as long as it meant some good music being out there. "We'll put this record out. So what if it doesn't sell a million copies. It's a really good record and in the long run, it's going to make an impact." That's not even a consideration anymore. It's a shame when that's not a consideration in jazz. Anyone who thinks any jazz record is going to sell, even, I mean, you're lucky if you sell a hundred thousand copies.

AAJ: Jazz accounts for less than three percent of total record sales. That's a drop in the bucket.

CM: A teardrop.

AAJ: Are these corporate record executives getting it?

CM: And they don't want to get it. I can tell you right now, Fred, most corporate executives who run the labels, they look at jazz as a gift. They say, "Well, look. We're just letting you do this because jazz is an American art form and all that crap, but we're just going to let you have this because we like you." Part of me feels really bad because a lot of people who run the jazz record labels, I think they want to be able to have that carefree attitude like, "Just make a record and do your thing." But the people that are overseeing them, when they look at those bills at the end of the year, they're like, "Hey, why are we letting you make these records?" And that's when they end up flooding the market, just to be able to make it to that financial, whatever they need to make. It's difficult. I think ultimately, I've actually heard one person say, "Independent record labels are the ones that keep everything afloat." These small record labels like Criss Cross, think about all these big, Motown was an independent label, Blue Note. I think ultimately that might be the way to go. A lot of these hip hop record labels are indies.

AAJ: Put yourself in their shoes for a moment and tell me, how would you market jazz?

CM: I would market the artist. I really wouldn't say much about the music. I think that's the problem. You look at a record now and the way they market it, you almost know what the record sounds like before you hear it. I really believe that. They try to verbalize what the music is and I think that's the wrong, wrong thing to do. Just market the artist. Pick what that person is about and try to market that artist. If they have a lot of things they can do, I don't know, come up with a nickname. Call him the "Chameleon" or something like that. But at least, don't try to put that person, try and pigeonhole that person. Don't put him in a bag because that's the worst thing you can possibly do. You're setting that artist up for a long career and you're going to set him up to have a lot of people pissed off at him.

AAJ: Let's talk about the 76ers.

CM: My boys! I'll be honest. I knew if they didn't get there this year, I knew they'd be there next year. I've followed Larry Brown for a long time and I've always been amazed at how he can take these horrible teams.

AAJ: The Clippers.

CM: Yes, I don't get it (laughing). That's a bad dude, Larry Brown. I must admit though, when he first came to Philly, he started trading away Stackhouse and Joe Smith and all these people, I said, "What is he doing? How can trade a Clarence Weatherspoon and all those guys? Those guys were the heart of Philadelphia." I was like, "Man." But part of me was like, "Look, he must know what he's doing so I'm not going to get too excited." But he's got them together. I think had they played a full season, the Sixers would have probably won at least fifty games. I think if they keep that team together, which I think they will because other than Iverson, there's really not a whole lot of big names on the team, so it's not like they're going to have to break that bank to keep any of those players on the team next year. I think they might even be better next year.

AAJ: And their chances against Indiana?

CM: The Sixers are a real young team. Indiana has all that experience. To sit back and wait for Indiana to make a mistake, like make a bad pass or throw something out of bounds by accident, that's just not going to happen. You've got to execute against a team like that. Even if you execute, you still might win. And the Sixers, they're real young and I can see, they rush a lot of shots, but they've been playing Indiana tough. I know that they're down two games, but I really think, if they play like they've been playing, when they go to Philly, starting tomorrow night, I think they'll win.

AAJ: And the Eagles?

CM: Oh, they're a little difficult to enjoy (laughing). I'll be honest with you, Fred, another reason I like the Sixers so much is they might be a team that might be able to escape that whole free agency issue. I think free agency is killing sports in general. You can't stay anywhere any longer than a couple of seasons. I think that might be what happened to the Eagles. I honestly believe that had they given Ricky Watters another season in Philadelphia, because in Ray Rhodes three seasons in Philly, they finished ten and six, ten and six, and the last year, what were they, like three and thirteen or something like that. But look at who they had on their team. They're not going to win with Duce Staley (running back) and Bobby Hoying (quarterback), Jeff Graham (wide receiver). They're not going to do it with those guys and before they had Ricky Watters, I actually think that Randall Cunningham, if they would have let him hang in there one more year, he probably would have had a good comeback. Bobby Taylor (cornerback), Mike Zordich (safety), and all those guys, they really would have had a good team, but they let Ricky Watters go. After Ricky left, Bill Romanowski (linebacker), they let him. He went to Denver (he won two championships with the Broncos). Things just kind of fell apart.

AAJ: A little bird told me about your piano playing.

CM: I think I'm good enough to write some good songs on it. I've played piano once in public and I don't think I'll ever do it again. I was playing a gig at the Village Gate with this singer. Larry Willis was supposed to play piano and he didn't show up. The singer, her name was Lodi Carr, and Lodi said, "Christian, you play some good piano. Why don't you play piano?" I said, "I don't know Lodi. I don't know if I want to do that." "Ah, come on, you can do it." And she had me play piano. I don't remember if I did a good job or not because I was so nervous. Playing behind a singer, playing all those old standards and stuff, the other thing that was hard was that there was no rhythm section. There was just me. It would have only been vocals, piano, and bass, so it was just piano and vocals. Had there been a bass player and a drummer, I might have been able to skate a little easier. Piano has always been one of my favorite instruments. I was joking with my girlfriend and I was telling her that in my next life I'm going to come back as a piano player.

AAJ: So no "McBride Plays Piano" albums.

CM: You know, Fred, I'm actually thinking that one day, I don't know if I'll do a whole album like that, but I'm thinking I might do one song and do all overdubs. I'm thinking about playing piano, bass, drums, guitar, and vibraphone.

AAJ: Are you going to watch the new Star Wars movie?

CM: I don't think so. I was never into Star Wars. I remember when it first came out in like '78, I was like, "The Star Wars thing ain't really my bag." I'm more into spy movies. I'm a big 007 fan. I own every 007 movie.

AAJ: And the best Bond?

CM: Oh, by far, Connery.

AAJ: And Pierce Brosnan?

CM: I know a lot of people don't like him, but I like him. I like him better than Timothy Dalton.

AAJ: And the future?

CM: I'm going to go back in the studio in September, late September, early October. Probably will be released early next year, probably around late January, early February maybe. I think I'm going to do another CD that might be more of the, I try to call it like an acoustic fusion record. I'm going to stay away from the overt funk on the next CD and try to concentrate more on the open, kind of, free sounding stuff. I'll leave the funk for another date. When I do a funk date, I want to do all funk. I don't want to butter it up none.