DL: Well, I saw him several dozen times, from age fifteen on until 1961, when he died. As I was saying earlier, it was unbelievable the way these four people [Coltrane, Tyner, Garrison, Jones] played together. There are videos and of course, recordings, but there's nothing comparable to the way it was, and everybody who was there will tell you- it was a storm, it was a hurricane, it was incredible, and it was hypnotic- and it was also frustrating, it was too much, it was "where are you? who are you?"- it made you think about everything. I was fifteen, sixteen. I wasn't a very reflective person then, but it was something! I was mesmerized, bored, interested, turned on, turned off: it was everything you could have in the course of a four hour night. Those guys played three sets, and they played sets an hour and a half, two hours, and would do duos- sometimes Coltrane and Elvin would do duets that could last 45 minutes, an hour, an hour and a quarter. I remember sitting next to him- I'm talkin' three feet away from him, and him and Elvin playing for an hour and a half, duo. At two o'clock in the morning in Birdland, and nobody there except at the bar, all the hookers and the pimps, and in the audience there was nobody, except me and my friend Steve Lipman, who's now an administrator at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. We used to go loyally to see Coltrane two or three times a week when he played New York, and in those days you played New York three, four times a year, maybe one or two weeks, so you had a chance to really see his development. So it was mesmerizing, and it made me say to myself, somehow, I don't know in what way at that point, but it certainly was apparent- somehow I said to myself at that point, whatever that is, I must find out about it, it made me say what is it? That was the thing- on a very elementary level, that's the same instrument that I have at home, and I'm playing whatever I'm playing, and that's the same instrument- how could that be the same instrument? This was like another instrument in his hands! As far as what it could do and what it could express. I said, whatever that is, I must find out about it.

VLS: Do you know what enabled him to get that extraordinary sound?

DL: He was an obsessive practicer. In between sets, in the back he practiced. Reggie Workman said to me, if Coltrane didn't have the saxophone around his neck, he was sleeping. he was obsessive. And very serious. And that's why he did what he did. He was talented, of course, but here's a case of a man of not supernatural talent, not a genius like Charlie Parker (at 16 or 17 Parker already had evidence of genius), here was a guy who really had to work his way through, 'cause you hear his early recordings, you can hear him at 20, 21, there are recordings of him in the army, he's good, but it's not anything, and five, six years later, not to mention ten years later. Another thing is, his career was extremely short, as far as his recording history goes, we're talking twelve years, and yet he covered so many bases. He was obsessive, he was serious, and he also had the great fortune by 1960, '61, to find three compatriots who could really reflect what he wanted to do. Which in jazz is probably the most important thing you have to do. Because after your own development, since it's not primarily a solo art, you must find people to empathize and make your picture come across, because it's not as if you are a painter or a writer sitting alone in a hotel room or a garret creating a masterpiece. So that's a thing Coltrane had- he got these three guys who were able to really do it for him, and that was the power of it.

VLS: A reviewer whom I believe you quote on your web site classifies you as "a post-Cotrane contemporary player." I'm assuming that what he means is that you are in the tradition of Coltrane stylistically and temperamentally.

DL: I would agree with that.

VLS: While we were listening to some of your recordings together, vibes player Tony Miceli said: "Like Charles Lloyd, only better, Dave Liebman took Coltrane to the next level." Do you agree with that assessment? Do you feel any close connection or strong differences with Charles Lloyd?

DL: Well, Charles Lloyd was a teacher of mine. I went to Charles Lloyd when I was about 19, I spent about a year with him, not in formal lessons, but I really became his assistant, I helped him with the band, travelling around, and so forth. And so he was the first real living jazz musician whom I knew personally. And we became friends. So there was a big Charles Lloyd influence in my playing around that time, 19, 20, 21 years old. And Charles was coming out of Coltrane- Tony is correct about that, he came out of that old Coltrane tradition. But- as far as me extending it, the thing about Coltrane is that he did so much, he played so much music, that I often referred to it as if I could take his left pinky toe, and develop that, that would be a lifetime's work, and that is sorta where I and others like me are at.

Wayne Shorter was contemporaneous with Coltrane, and he had a Coltrane influence in him, but he took it his own direction- he really made his own direction. That's a critical thing that I can't judge, but I certainly have incorporated elements of Coltrane, and I have made definite moves to try to submerge those influences and orient them towards a more personal standpoint and not just be an imitator. I have definitely tried to extend and change and alter it, and I've used a lot of other elements. Miles again had a big effect upon me, in the rhythmic aspect, and that has affected me, and also the fact that I played the soprano sax for a fifteen year period, was an attempt to get out of the Coltrane influence, to tell you the truth. So I think temperamentally, I definitely feel a kinship with that seriousness and getting in the middle of the storm, but musically, we come from completely different eras, so "contemporary post-Coltrane" might be a good way of saying I'm a reflection of my period, and we don't play the same material Coltrane played. So, I would feel that's an accurate categorization.

VLS: Pianist Tom Lawton wanted me to ask you this one. Given Coltrane's profound influence on you, what advice would you give to a young player who wants to immerse himself in a master's playing? How can the player absorb and make personal use of the experience but not be swallowed up by it?

DL: This is like a two, three hour lecture. I usually end my saxophone master class every summer with: OK, we've been looking at this all week, now what's our goal? The goal is not to be another Coltrane or Sonny Rollins, great as that is, because first of all you can't be, second of all we're in a different period in history. And there are several guidelines. One is, you've got to really want to be yourself, in other words, it can't be just because you're supposed to be yourself and not be a copier, 'cause it's the thing that everybody says, you know, you can't be an imitator, it's not good... It has to be a burning desire to be yourself, you have to absolutely want to escape the mantle of such-and-such a derivative of such-and-such a player. That's number one. Number two, what that leads to is not listening to it, not doing any more studying of that music, it probably means immersing yourself in a completely contrary musical field, and out of music into other arts, certainly, and into philosophy and spiritualism, whatever. You know, there are things that I recommend, In one of my publications, I have a list of books and other influences, other music that affected me. You got to go elsewhere to try to find an influence that you can then bring to this music, graft it from one thing to another. That's the process. Also, you have to psychologically admit that there's a possibility you can be yourself, that there's a possibility you can be not just a Coltrane imitator. And you have to immerse yourself in people who reinforce that. And a scenario that reinforces that. You can't be looking for acceptance, you gotta be sure you're not gonna play as well for a while. People are gonna look at you and say, "What are you doin'?" You may have to drop out, you may have to isolate yourself in some a room for a while. You've got to be brave to go through that process of shedding the influence of a great master on your playing, and that takes a few years, if these elements are there, in earnest, with some work. It means taking something in your playing and musically transcribing it, then memorializing it by writing fifteen thousand exercises on it. Because if you listen back to a cassette of "last night," I'm sure there is something there that is not Coltrane, that is not Sonny Rollins, that is not Wayne Shorter, that is some Dave Liebman- maybe a mistake, because it's in the mistakes probably where the originality lies anyway- there's a great quote to that effect from Bartok. And there's something there that you must notice, listen, transcribe that, rather than transcribing Coltrane. And then make an exercise of fifteen tunes, and study how that is. And that's a musical process that I would go through with you as a teacher. So, if all the elements are there, there is to be no doubt that within three to five years, the main influence that you had will be completely submerged. And only I and two other people in the world will know where it comes from.

VLS: Let's turn to Coltrane's "Meditations." They are milestones, both the Coltrane original and your own 30th anniversary version of it. Your interest in the "Meditations"- did that happen suddenly for you, or grow on you over a period of time? What stimulated your interest enough to revive that piece?

DL: Well, "Meditations" was the announcement, so to say, the birth of the late Coltrane period. Coltrane is early, middle, and late, for the sake of ease. Early is Miles Davis, etc. Middle is his period that I talk about with McCoy and Elvin and Jimmy Garrison. And late is already with different musicians, it's the last two years of his life.

VLS: What about "A Love Supreme?"

DL: Recording wise, "A Love Supreme" is the final record of the middle period, and it's the culmination, by the way, the award winning great masterpiece that it is, because it is the culmination of a period. But from then on in, he really started out. "Meditations" was a milestone in Coltrane's discography. Now, you've gotta remember, this is me following the guy and buying the next record. This is not looking back thirty years. I was there, buying that- oh there's a new record album! Get it! Ya know. And the late period of Coltrane, as I mentioned in the album notes [for the Liebman edition of Meditations], was a very overlooked, ignored period certainly by critics and by audience, and by musicians alike. It was extremely dense, it was chaotic, one didn't know what he was doing. And it was such a departure from even middle Coltrane, and certainly early Coltrane. And it was very difficult for people to take. I have stories of people walking out, I tell a story of Lincoln Center, giant concert, people walking out because he started with "My Favorite Things," which was his signature tune, and then by ten minutes it was complete free form, it was a symphony in free form jazz, after he played the melody and everybody literally cheered and applauded. It was his hit tune, then all of a sudden it was like five saxophone players on stage, guys shakin' the marracas! And this is Philharmonic Hall! It was called "Titans of the Tenor Sax," and he was the final act. Half the audience left, so it was really met with derision and like, what's he doing now? Of course, he died before he answered the question, so to say. By '67, he didn't have to answer anybody about it because it was over.

VLS: What did he die from?

DL: He had liver complications, as far as I've been led to believe. And, I always felt his late period was music of high spiritual nature. Coltrane playing on that, his own playing is unbelievable. It's beyond category, it's beyond even what he did before, as far as the saxophone playing goes. And what he was trying to reach for and where it was going. So what if it was a little bit unlistenable and disorganized and chaotic, but there's a real something in it that was beyond anything I'd known, and it was in another realm. It was like the monks, it was Tibetan, it was Buddhist, it was the real deal, it was the cats really going for the spiritual light, you know at least, musically. And I always felt it was important to try to get that period back on the map.

Meditations excelled because it's a five-part suite, it has some beautiful melodies, which I outline in my notes, it happens to be a combination of lyricism and dissonance that is unmatched. I thought that it's a great piece to study, and I took it and changed it around a little bit as far as putting some harmony in it that Coltrane didn't have. And I put that in with some transitions and things like that, and maybe gave it a contemporary stamp. Basically, the music is an exact transcription by my wife, Caris, of everything that Coltrane played on his recording. She transcribed every note that he played, and we don't know what's melodies and what's improvisation, but everything you hear in the record is what he played, in addition to our own improvisations.

VLS: I was going to ask you how you set up the performance of your thirtieth anniversary edition of Meditations. Where was it recorded?

DL: At the Symphony Space, New York City.

VLS: OK, so what did Caris take directly from the Coltrane recording, and how did you arrange the overall project?

DL: First of all, I'd been playing it since the eighties. On the anniversaries, I'd bring it out, and do it somewhere in the world. So already, I was familiar with my format. What it really consisted of was to do interludes between the pieces, to have the guys play their solos in there, use the group cacophony as the basis to redo all the blowing, which is what he did, and to put some harmonies in some of the tunes. For example in the third movement, "Love," and in the final movement, "Serenity," I added chords. They didn't have chords when they played it. And having two drummers, especially having Jamey Haddad play percussion. Then there's an introduction with the flute. The synthesizer was an addition to use that particular color. The guitar certainly wasn't in the Coltrane original. The oboe, Caris playing oboe. So in other words, by instrumentation and color, I was able to effect what I think is an individual treatment of a classic piece. It's classic because I think it's classic; it's not classic 'cause anybody ever played it, 'cause it's not like playing "Autumn Leaves" or like God knows "So What," because nobody ever plays "Meditations," so it's not classic in that sense. But it's classic meaning that it was such a heavy version that they did on the original recording; it was so memorialized that- what could you do with it? Well, I did what I could, around the actual notes, which is what Caris transcribed. It's nine pages of music. It's a lot of music in there. people listen to it, they say, "Oh it's free jazz"- that stuff is nine pages of written out music.

VLS: I agree with what you're saying about the piece. I was surprised at how accessible it is in a certain respect, especially your version, because Tony Marino, your bassist, had warned me that it would be very difficult to listen to.

DL: Well, compared to what's coming out these days, it definitely sticks out, because nobody's doing anything like that. But in the sixties, man, that's when we all started playing free jazz, that's where I began. It's accessible also a little bit more I think because of the decorative stuff that I put around it, but it's still pretty difficult listening!

VLS: In "Meditations" [i.e., Liebman version] it seems to me there is a lot of what you call "world music."

DL: There is a marked influence there, yes.

VLS: Can you tell us a little bit about that. Was Coltrane into "world music"? Did you add that element to the Meditations? How does world music fit into your own work and how does it fit into Meditations?

DL: Well, first of all Coltrane- I don't know how well this is known about him- but he was visionary in that respect. he had several recordings that are markedly world influenced. "India" is a recording that's obviously Indian influenced, "Ole", which uses a phrygian Spanish scale, "Africa Brass," a whole record dedicated to an African thing. "Dahomey Dance" was the name of one tune of his in the early sixties. He was obviously one of the first musicians to look elsewhere - this was part of the sixties period, this is what we came up in.

As far as the effect on me, world music along with classical, twentieth century classical music in particular, and along with pop music of sorts, certainly R&B type stuff, has had an influence on me not equal to jazz, but I would put it you know just slightly below in my output, my recorded output and the way I play. You see a concert by me, you're gonna see these three or four things probably come in there in the midst of an hour set, and certainly my recordings reflect that. I'm just curious about world music, and I'll tell you what it is particularly: it's flutes, single line instruments, with drums, that especially interests me, the vocalization of how you play a flute type, double reed type, single line instrument, which is what the saxophone is after all, with handdrums, 'cause that's what they have in this world music, whether it's Balkan music, or whether it's Indian music, even Brazilian music, although that's more sophisticated, certainly Latin American music.

Generally, I'm curious about how people are able to make music out of so little given material. All they start with is a melody or a scale, and they've been doing it for five thousand years, three thousand years or whatever, and look what they do with it! I'm amazed and curious how they can take such a minimum amount of material and make so much out of it, above and beyond the symbolic gesture of the use of the music for weddings and for funerals and the obvious tie-in of world music to the culture that it's in. Outside of that, how do they take a scale, a raga, and play it for seven hours, in different tempos and everything like that? We take chord changes, and we're exhausted after five minutes, you know, which is a curiosity to me, and it's something we need to know about, and it enlarges my scope. So world music- on "Meditations", there's a little bit, but you hear a lot of that in my music because I'm just very interested in it. My present band, with Jamey Haddad, he's a master hand percussionist, he's got his own instruments, he plays frame drums, that's one of his big things, that's one of the reasons I've had him with me for the past seven years is because he brings that influence in directly.

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