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Interview
Joe Lee Wilson

Joe Lee Wilson
November 2001



"I like songs with a positive message. We need positivity in the world more than ever."



Meet Joe Lee Wilson


By Lionelle Hamanaka

"Music is a healing force," said Mr. Wilson, as he stood waiting to perform at the second floor theatre of the Greenwich Music School on Sunday night, September 30, for a tribute to Greenwich Village firemen who died at the World Trade Center attack. The event was organized by jazz pianist Fiona Bicket and the singer Zoe.

"Joe Lee," as he is affectionately known, had come to New York to promote his new CD, "Feelin' Good," (Candidrecords.com) just before September 11th. That night he sang "Goin' Home," "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother," "Jazz Ain't Nothin' But Soul," and "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," with his beautiful baritone voice sculpting sounds like horn player, beating riffs out like a drum.

Mr. Wilson is about six feet tall and has the bearing of a tribal chief, with a warm, charismatic stage presence. He is part native American from the Creek Nation. He plays guitar and piano and has written original songs which combine jazz with native American poetic ideas, scales and rhythmic motifs.

During his visit he was featured at concerts in New York and New Jersey, and at private functions sponsored by Amiri Baraka (aka poet Leroy Jones). Passing through Manhattan, Joe Lee sat in on bebop guru Barry Harris's vocal class, which takes place every Tuesday at a community center on West 65th Street. "Every time I come here I'm nervous because I know he's going to call on me, like … 'Joe Lee, show them how to do it,'" he said, after singing a chorus on Ellington's 'Lucky So and So.'

He was born… "in Oklahoma, near Bristow. My parents were farmers. We kids would get up in the morning, kill a rabbit, and bring it to my mother. Then we'd bring the cows in, milk them, and by then breakfast would be ready. We'd have rabbit, rice and biscuits," he said.

He reminisced that at one time there were five black towns in Oklahoma, and there were African American rodeos and cowboys.

Joe Lee discovered jazz…"on the radio when I was a teenager. I heard Louis Jordan and his quintet. I used to be able to hear a song once and memorize it," he said. "Louis Jordan, Nat Cole and Dinah Washington were early favourites. I still listen to singers but I don't have any particular favourites."

"When I was 15 I got restless on the farm and I ran away to California to live with my brothers. One day my aunt and I were walking down the street past a club where Eddie Jefferson was singing, and his voice floated out, singing "Parker's Mood" and "Moody's Mood for Love." --(he smiles and sings) 'There I go, there I go, there I go, there I go… so I asked my aunt, "What's that?" and she took my hand and pulled me away, saying, 'That's the devil's music.' … Eddie Jefferson [became] my best friend…"

Years later when Joe Lee opened the famous Ladies Fort jazz club in lower Manhattan, he often featured Jefferson at the concerts. He explained that Jefferson's lyrics were a continuation of the African tradition of spoken history, honoring the exploits of the living heroes of the culture through poetry and song, so that their story would never die. He quoted Jefferson's lyrics on Body and Soul: "Don't you know, he was the king of saxophones, yes indeed he was, talkin' bout the guy who made it sound so good, some people knew him as the Bean, but Hawkins was his name …' -- 100 years from now, people will know who Coleman Hawkins was," he said.

Joe Lee Wilson attended a music conservatory in LA for two years, but because he could not conform to the rules in classical voice training, he left and went to a city college to develop a jazz technique. He sang in local nightclubs around California. "I went to jam sessions where Joanne Brackeen was playing piano." He then went to Mexico, where he was making a good living touring the country.

"When I came to NY, Ernestine Anderson was helping me out a lot," he said. [This was because]… she met me when I was in Mexico. I was singing, all over--Mexico City in 1960. She phoned me from New York and said, "Hey what are you doing? Come to New York." I didn't feel like I wanted to come to NY. I wanted to go to Brazil. I had saved money from working in Mexico. In New York I lived at the Skylar Hotel, 45th St. between 5 and 6 Ave.

"She introduced me to her agent Marty O Tillsburgh, and her record company. He requested me to cut off my beard because he was booking places they didn't allow this. The beard was a big selling point in Mexico, they thought I was Cuban.

Mr. Wilson is now shopping several masters of recordings, one of standards with Kenny Dorham, Billy Higgins and Cedar Walton. He also is an original composer who has written some stunning songs, and a versatile singer who can do anything from opera to blues, gospel, pop, soul, funk, "standards" and jazz. His performances have covered a startling range of venues, from 15 State Department tours, to serving as artist in residence at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, for which he created a lovely children's suite of jazz songs, to singing at a religious pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Lourdes in France.

Mr. Wilson's unique sound is a free and resonant baritone, soaring through a three octave range with command of all registers. He has the gorgeous tone of the old time baritones and combines it with a horn articulation, with the sensual curving lines of the saxophone and the sharp bop punctuation of the trumpet. And he quoted Dinah Washington, who said during an interview, "The blues is in everything I do." "It took me a long time to understand that," he said.

Peter King, the famous English saxophonist, wrote these words for the new CD, "Feelin' Good!": "…He is a beautiful musician and a beautiful human being, Joe Lee has a heart and a soul of pure gold."

After his concerts he conducted a master class on October 14, where he held forth on the duties and joys of the art of jazz vocalists. "Vocalists are the bridge that makes jazz accessible and popular," he said. "Live performance is all about creating an ambience, a chemistry between players and audience. For me it's intuitive."

Discussing the focus of his own contribution to the music, he said, "Composers and lyricists are the ones who make the money in the music business. I have focussed on the songs of jazz musicians, because I am a jazz singer and not too many singers today are doing songs written by musicians."

Living proof are his definitive renditions of Horace Silver's "Strolling," and KD's "Home in the Country."

One by one the singers, some of them well known working singers in New York, performed and were critiqued by the master. "Where's the recording contract?" he asked pianist Harry Whittaker, after Lil Phillips and Nat Jones finished their songs. He coached a nervous Judy Grey, who was preparing to record for Mapleshade, through Monk's "In Walked Bud." "That's based on the changes of 'Blue Skies,'" he informed her.

AAJ: How did you get started singing?

JLW: "Every time people would come by my parents they'd say, 'where's that boy? He can sing, let him sing us a song. When I was a little boy I would sing, 'I know a secret, a beautiful secret the birdie told me.' They would say, "What's the secret?" And I would enjoy saying, 'That's a secret.' I was a natural.

AAJ: You were a favorite of diva absoluta Sarah Vaughan, who let you sit in on her gigs. Where did you meet?

JLW: I met Sarah Vaughan at a hotel in San Francisco, I stayed there about a year and a half. I met her band because they had a jam sessions after 2 o'clock at Jimbo's Bop City. Everybody that came in town came to the after hours place. So I met all the NY musicians before I came to NY, in San Francisco. Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers, Miles Davis, Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers. The Blackhawk and the Jazz Workshop. This was in '59. I started singing in '58. LA wasn't a jazz town. I was too jazzy for LA. I met again in Vegas with Kirk Stewart.

AAJ: How did you start singing professionally?

JLW: When I first started singing I was working with Roscoe Wethers. He played alto sax with Fletcher Henderson's band he was also a flautist. He had a lot insight. He said, "As a musician sometimes you're gonna starve. You gotta learn to make your own work." He was a jewelry maker. He taught me how to make things out of semi precious stones. And you could sell it." He told me, "Every musician has a one hit song, maybe not many but one." So it stuck in my mind, everybody I played with I asked, Have you got any songs? I went out last night and saw the pianist Bobby Few, he gave me a great song, "Let it Rain."

AAJ: You were one of the originators of the NY jazz Loft scene in the 1970's. How did that happen?

JLW: I was living downtown. Jazz was in the air. NY has thousands of musicians who may never play anywhere. One day you'll see some guy with a horn, and ask, "Wow man, you play?" [The purpose was] to give talented musicians somewhere to play to an audience. "In the 60's there was a big change for Afro American musicians. A lot of them were changing their names to Arabic or Muslim names. There was a new awareness of how to protect your music, including Duke Ellington, they would always put their name on the music. We decided to have your own publishing company. [Most singers] think of singing standards, not singing songs by jazz musicians. "I've always loved to play horses and [once] I won a lot of money through OTB. I'd been seeing this place for rent, and it was on an alley, which is unusual. I asked about the rent -- it was $200 a month. 3,000 square feet, with a subbasement the same size. The guy who was renting it asked me what I was going to do with it. I said I'd make a music social club. "What kind of music?," he asked. I told him jazz, and he said, "Oh I love jazz. I'm a schoolteacher.' He gave me a five year lease with an option. I gave him a year's rent. I had a friend Mal who used to play horses. He knew how to do everything. He was a Vietnam vet. "You're going to have an empire," he told me. "We combed the streets of NY and we'd find brand new stuff thrown out by factories. We found carpets, leather, we made a stage, we made horses (like the ones athletes use) for people to lean or sit on. We had a musician's room which could hold 100 people. It took us about 6 months working day and night. Mal wouldn't take any pay. He kept saying, "You're going to have an empire." The place looked like a fort. It's a security place now. "Having the loft was going along with creating your own publishing company; you had to create a place to perform [your music]. There were a lot of coops formed to make recordings. They would form an umbrella, a band would produce their own record and put it out under an umbrella. A big example [of that] would have been Strata East. Stanley Cowell, John Lewis (drummer), Charles Tolliver, The first big hit record was Gil Scott Heron's -- "In the Bottle." Rashied Ali [had] started [a company] called Survival, and I produced a recording called 'What Would It Be Without You?' "I did all the promotions and did press releases of things that were going to happen, and sent it in to all the free publicity, the magazines, (you have to get it in 6 weeks before). I knew that PR was the whole thing that makes a success. For the record companies it was marketing. I made 10,000 fliers, 6 weeks in advance. My idea was to get them as far away from the Ladies' Fort as possible. We wanted posters all around the world. "There were five lofts going, so I got them all together to form a Loft Association and we had a festival. Sell one ticket and you could go to all five lofts over the weekend. We'd have round the clock playing. Non stop."

AAJ: How much was a ticket?

JLW: $25 a weekend. It came about when Newport Jazz Festival came to New York. [The loft festival started because] He wasn't going to use many musicians from New York.

AAJ: Who played?

JLW: All the free jazz musicians, at first. Later people like Frank Foster brought his band in. It was open 6-7 years. John Hicks, Rashied Ali, all of Chicago Art Ensemble came in. I wanted to get the public and reporters in … I have (video) tapes of Eddie Jefferson. He played there many times. Arthur Blythe, Hamiell Bluiett. David Murray. I had a book; whoever signed up, worked. I booked 6 weeks in advance. Some [bands] were terrible and packed the place out. Some were good and packed the place."

AAJ: You have also sung with Freddie Hubbard at many jazz concerts, and with Miles Davis, Archie Shepp and Kirk Lightsey, in Europe.

JLW: Yes.

AAJ: You recorded a song by Curtis Lewis on the album Joe Lee Wilson & the Great City:

JLW:Oh yeah. Did you ever hear it?

AAJ: No.

JLW: It goes," If ever you're restless and feeling low Don't think the city is the place to go And I'll tell you one thing worth thinking about If you get in be sure you can get back out. "I basically produced this recording in New York done with the Norman Simmons trio, that used to play for Carmen MacCrae."

AAJ: What about other recordings?

JLW: "My recording [history] has been very strange. I was signed with Columbia 1969-70 for three years, they didn't release [the LP's], just two singles. They said they couldn't find the wording to categorize me. John Hammond said I was the second Joe Turner, but I don't sound like Joe Turner at all. I own those master recordings. We did two LPs. I had won a contest. There was a showcase on NBC -- "Talent Search" -- in1968. So I went through four different stages, I won the four stages and at the end, there was a contest between the Chambers Bros., Sly and the Family Stone and myself and somebody else. The end was a tie between Sly and the Family Stone and myself. The prize was a Columbia recording contract and $10K. So they signed both of us. "I recorded my Bond Street band and Frank Foster wrote arrangements about it. They said they wouldn't release them so I went to the lawyer and screamed discrimination. So in the end they gave me possession of these.

AAJ: What was it like singing in those days?

JLW: "We played a lot of clubs. I had my own band, with Monty Waters, the alto saxophonist. Masuo on guitar, Ryo Kawasaki and Ronnie Boykins on bass. We shared the bill with Sonny Rollins on a lot of concerts.

Jim Harrison [producer] had a thing called Spotlight Attractions with a partner called Hilley Saunders. He always featured me." Harrison recalled over the phone: "He was a very nice person and he had a wonderful voice."

AAJ: You left the States in 1977.

JLW: 'I went to Europe in 1977 because I had met an English lady in New York and we had married. We decided at that time to live in England and we still have a home there, though our main home is in Paris'.

AAJ: Do you consider jazz a world music?

JLW: It's certainly played in most parts of the world and has always taken on elements of music from different countries - as you say, different flavours. But basically it is Afro-American classical music - it wouldn't have happened without slavery and the mix of musical cultures from two continents that slavery triggered.

AAJ: What kind of songs do you like?

JLW: I like songs with a positive message. We need positivity in the world more than ever.

AAJ: What are your future plans?

JLW: I have a UK tour coming up in November and December, and a recording session for the next Candid album. Hopefully there will be more songwriting taking inspiration from our planet and the universe.

AAJ: You made a recording with Kenny Dorham. Can you tell me a little about that?

JLW: "This was a concert, and it was recorded by the radio, I think the station was WLIB; and the disc jockey was Ed Williams. This was an aircheck.

Kenny Dorham and I used to hang at Tompkins Square Park, Ave B and 8th Street. I met him in the park. Everybody hung out in the park -- you drink a little wine and talk. Wilbur Ware, C Sharp, Rashied Ali and Muhammad Ali's brother who plays congos. [We hung out for] many years. That's where KD gave me songs. "Home in the Country," "As I Live as I Love as I Breath."

AAJ: What kind of lifestyle do you suggest a singer follow?

JLW: A healthy lifestyle with the right food, enough sleep, and a good amount of exercise - I practise T'ai Chi. Alcoholic drinks should not be taken neat - always drink them with water or other non-alcoholic mixers.


Mr. Wilson lives in France. His daughter Naima, who recently attended Brown University, plays the saxophone, and is now studying cuisine in Paris.

Joe Lee Wilson flew back to France for his upcoming European tours and performing at Manray's, a huge club on the Champs Elysee on Tuesday October 24, and looks forward to recording and performing at many venues in the States.

Latest CD: "Feelin' Good!" available online at: candidrecords.com

Hobbies: "I like to keep in touch with what is happening in the world from radio and TV. I enjoy cooking. I walk a fair amount. And I follow horseracing in France and Britain - I even invest a little now and then!"


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