By Paul F. Roberts
Jazz musicians can be tough interviews. These are, after all, individuals who are often more comfortable expressing themselves in a musical language that is both demanding and nuanced, but that is also difficult to translate for those who aren't already fluent. Uncomfortable analyzing their own music, jazz musicians are often just as reluctant to go on record critiquing somebody else's work.
And then there's John Lurie. A founding member, with his brother Evan, of the Lounge Lizards, John Lurie is a gifted player and composer who penned most of the tunes on the Lounge Lizards' seven live and studio recordings in addition to scoring a number of Hollywood and independent films, including his Grammy-nominated work for the hit film Get Shorty.
All this, and we haven't even mentioned Lurie's accomplishments as an actor, where appearances in films such as Jim Jarmusch's cult classics Stranger than Paradise and Down by Law, Wim Wenders' Paris, Texas, and Martin Scorcese's Last Temptation of Christ place Lurie's unmistakable mug in the extreme foreground of most people's mental image of "independent film." Nor have we mentioned his forays into business as the founder and CEO of Strange & Beautiful Music, the record label he created to distribute the Lounge Lizards' most recent album, 1998's Queen of All Ears and Lurie's stealth project from the Spring of 2000, The Legendary Marvin Pontiac.
Taken together, Lurie's many accomplishments since bursting onto the scene with the Lounge Lizards in the early 1980s make him as close to a renaissance man as you're likely to find in this country, where the accepted wisdom is that in order to make any kind of mark on the world you've got to devote your entire life to just one thing and, oh yeah, start when you're five years old, a la Tiger Woods.
But Lurie is also a brash and outspoken intellectual whose quick wit and strong opinions have put him on the wrong side of the entertainment establishment on more than one occasion. In one of his first interviews as the leader of the Lounge Lizards, for example, Lurie explained the group's work as "fake jazz," a quip that has confused fans and dogged Lurie for years, finding its way into more than one "concerned critic's" interview. Then there was last year's squabble with Knitting Factory founder and CEO Michael Dorf-a bitter exchange held in no less public a forum than the editorial pages of the magazine New Times-Los Angeles-in which Lurie labeled Dorf "a little fart" and accused the owner of the famous New York City club of (getting) rich off the backs of a lot of musicians who, mostly, still can't afford to pay their phone bills." For his part, Dorf played it cool, attributing Lurie's outburst to the rantings of an "eccentric genius" who "can ÃÂ
be difficult to work with and sometimes goes overboard with criticism."
Eccentric genius? Firebrand? Actor? Musician? Entrepreneur? John Lurie and I chatted in September of 1998 and tried to sort it all out:
AAJ: You've been quoted as saying that for the Lounge Lizards, it's about personalities and spirits more than strict musicianship. That struck me as an unusual and interesting quote for a jazz musician to come out with, because so many musicians would insist that it's all about musicianship.
JL: I don't think it is at all. I mean, it's kind of a given that the musicianship has to be at a high level to begin with. I mean, Doug Wieselman, who is not on the record but is with us now, is a clarinet player, and a great clarinet player. I met him doing a film score. (Trumpeter Steven) Bernstein knew that he played guitar a little bit, so when (guitarist David) Tronzo left we hired him as the guitar player strictly on his musicality and his soul, knowing that if he said he could pull it off, that he would be able to do it. He's kind of gotten there now, but when he started with the band on guitar, you'd kind of look over there and he'd be dealing with his pedals and his rhythm wasn't great, but now its kind of come around. And its great. I'm really glad we did it.
AAJ: Are there some people whose musicianship is right on, but you've played with them and they're lacking something inside?
JL: Oh, there are a million people like that. Any time you're looking for a new guy to play in the bandÃÂ
especially the jazz guys. People who play a lot of notes because they can? I mean you have to be able to play a lot of notes, but you also have to be discerning, you know? That's essential. It's like an orchestra. You have to be aware of the whole sound of the whole thing. So many of these jazz guys don't listen to each other, and so you can only go in this very narrow road.
AAJ: Is there a profile of the type of personality who works in the Lounge Lizards and the type of personality who doesn't?
JL: I just don't like cats. Anybody who says "hey, you cats!" ÃÂ
they can't be in the band.
AAJ: How do you think the Lounge Lizards have changed, if at all, since Voice of Chunk? Your sound is certainly differentÃÂ
JL: Oh it's changed completely since Voice of Chunk. I think the compositions are better and the playing is better and you get better at figuring out what to do in the studio to make it sound better. And the studio isn't such a completely terrifying place where you've got three days to record an album and, you know, you better get the song write THIS TIME. As you get older you get more solid and lessÃÂ
scared.
AAJ: There are so many stories out there about sleazy record industry people doing bad things to musicians- just too many to count. But what is it in particular about doing an album for somebody else's label that gives you the willies?
JL: Oh jeez, I dunno. You make this thing that is beautiful, and then you want to protect it. I think the thing that gives me the willies the most is that most of these people [at record labels] are not only not competent, but they seem to be jealous of the musicians and want the musicians to suffer for some reason.
AAJ: How does that come out?
JL: Talk to any bandÃÂ
off the recordÃÂ
they just treat them so horribly. And for any band that kind of makes it, there are a hundred bands that have been promised the world by some company and then their thing is sitting on the shelf, they can't do anything now. (A record company) can just completely put you out of business.
AAJ: Have you had pressure when you worked with major labels to change the way the Lounge Lizards sound or fit into some market niche?
JL: Oh yeah. Sure. Of course. Even Queen of All Ears was supposed to come out on Luaka Bop, David Byrne's label with Warner Bros. But it was like "Can you edit the cello solo out of this song?" "Why don't you do a cover?" Just icky stuff, you know? Not letting you do what you do.
AAJ: Would you consider doing your next release on something other than your own label?
JL: AhhhÃÂ
I don't know. I would consider it. But it just never worksÃÂ
it becomes such a nightmare, and they treat you bad and take your moneyÃÂ
it's not a good situation, but itÃÂs a lot of money to fork out of your own pocket to take nine guys into the studio.
AAJ: How come more musicians don't do what you do and start their own label?
JL: Well, it takes a lot of money to do it, and a lot of time and a certain level of business ability, which I almost wish I didn't have. It's just an incredible amount of work and it takes you further and further away from your original goal, which is to just make music all the time. In a way itÃÂs a desperation move on my part, you know? Because I'm a record company owner now, and I have to deal with everything that goes along with that, which is really not what I wanted. But you want the music to get out there soÃÂ
you've got to do somethingÃÂ
AAJ: So are you wearing power suits now, with big shoulder pads?
JL: No. Right now I'm wearing these slippers my sister gave me, and some shorts. No shirt. One of the benefits of owning your own company is that you can wear what you want!
AAJ: You had success, in a small way, with your recent cable television series "Fishing with John." What was the idea behind that series? Was it meant to be educational or just post-modern?
JL: Are those the alternatives? Either educational or postmodern?
AAJ: Yes.
JL: (Laughs) Isn't that kind of like a "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" kind of question? I don't know what I learned and I don't think it's post-modern. It's kind of like a little adventure trip. You get to see these people in a disarmed kind of way that I find kind of beautiful. The cameras running all the time, so you don't get the Dennis Hopper from the movies and you don't get the Dennis Hopper from when he's on Letterman, you get the real Dennis Hopper.
AAJ: What is a disarmed Dennis Hopper like?
JL: He was wonderful. I was terrified to do it with him, but he was kinda great. I must say.
AAJ: Did any of your guests know anything about fishing?
JL: Well, Willam (Dafoe) does. Me and Willam had actually been fishing a couple of times before, but the rest of them were hopeless actually.
AAJ: Your film career is more or less on hold. You haven't done many film roles latelyÃÂ
JL: I know. I kind of stopped.
AAJ: Yes, I was wondering why that wasÃÂ
JL: I just don't have time, you know?
AAJ: Right. Was being a famous person who had been in films different from being a famous or well-known musician?
JL: It was a weird thing, you know? I was doing the band and the band kind of took off when it first started and then it was kind of disappearing. As the music got better, we became less popular. Then Stranger than Paradise came along and suddenly I'm a movie star, or something. It kind of overwhelmed the music thing in a weird way, and maybe not a good way. You know? Music is by far the most important thing to me.
AAJ: When you were a famous film guy, what did Hollywood see you as? What was your type?
JL: OhÃÂ
Hollywood? They wanted me to be a bad guy.
AAJ: Why?
JL: You'll have to ask them. It probably had something to do with my eyebrows. I don't know.
AAJ: So you don't still get calls saying, "John, we want to work with you"?
JL: Not from Hollywood, now. From independent filmmakers, sometimes.
AAJ: You've scored a number of films. You did the movie for the very well known film "Get Shorty" as well as the two independent films you're releasing on Strange & Beautiful, "African Swim" and "Manny and Lo." What is that like as a composer? Do you need to work with the directors even in an independent film, or are you pretty much off on your own?
JL: It depends. You want the director to like it, if you have respect for the director. You want to get the director's color for the film. If itÃÂs a Hollywood movie, there tends to be some creep trying to tell you what to do, but then they pay you a lot of money and then they usually butcher the music by the time it comes out, so it can be painful. But then you do that so that you have enough money to start your own record company. That's the idea, see?
AAJ: I get it. Do directors know anything about music, more often than not?
JL: Some do. (Manny and Lo Director) Lisa Kreuger was great. (Get Shorty Director) Barry Sonenfeld was harder to connect with. They run the gamut. Some of the directors I've worked with don't know music at all, you know? You play something on the keyboard and say "that's going to be the bass" and they just look at you with this blank stare and they have no way of hearing it until they hear it-until they're in the studio and they hear it. And then you get this situation whereÃÂ
AAJ: Where they just say, "I don't like it!"
JL: Right. That has happened.
AAJ: What's up for the Lounge Lizards? It was nine years in between the releases of the last two Lounge Lizards releases. Is it going to be another nine years before the next release?
JL: Jeez. I really hope not. What we should do is after this American tour we go to do a month in Europe and we should really go into the studio after that, but itÃÂs a financial consideration. But if we haven't sold enough records to make it possibleÃÂ
? You know what I mean? I gotta be a bit careful here. But it's time to go back in. We have more than an album's worth of material and its kind of ripe now and if you leave it too long without recording it, it kind of gets past its prime.
Postscript: Since recording this interview in September of 1998, John Lurie has released a number of recordings, including the compositions he recorded for the cable television series, Fishing with John, as well as the soundtracks to African Swim, an independent film that was never released, and Lisa Kreuger's Manny and Lo on his label Strange & Beautiful Music. Spring of 2000 saw the release, also, of the music of the Legendary Marvin Pontiac on Strange & Beautiful-an artist whose mysterious biography has led to speculation that Pontiac is none other than Lurie himself, a charge that Lurie has denied. As of this writing, no new recordings from the Lounge Lizards have become available.
