By Nils Jacobson
So what does a Fonda composition look like?
Michael had a nice way of phrasing it, when we had an interview in Switzerland. He said, "Joe's music is like architecture. He thinks very architecturally. There's these rooms over here, and these rooms over there, and the hallway here." Lately I've been trying to actually scale down my thoughts, and come up with some condensed pieces... some smaller things. But in general, in an extended format, musical form fascinates me, and I always see if I can shape it. That idea of them being "architectural" is a good word. Michael writes music right in the song form tradition, where my stuff might be three or four pages long, much more expanded musically and formwise. It would be more about many sections... one section moving to another section, moving to another section. And the sections may be connected, or they may not. I still write in a very traditional Western format. But then there are times when it'll just be a textural concept. Sometimes there will be a section which is just a concept. It might not be a picture. It could just be some words or something. Like, "Now we invert section A and play it all backwards."
I guess it's more like roadmaps, you know. In general, my compositions are like roadmaps. You follow the map, you stop here and you stop there. Here's a nice restaurant--you stop here and eat. And then you might move on. Down here there's some places where you can hang out with some camels, and ride the camels for a while. And when you're done with the camel ride, you take a swim. And when you're done swimming, you end up back where you started, or maybe someplace different. And that's the end of the journey. Something like that.
Do you look at group improvisation as a social model? How does the interaction you have with other musicians relate to your interactions with the other people you know?
I can say that for me, I've always been interested, and still am interested in the collective reality of a group of people, much more than I am interested in the individual realities. That's very reflective of what I would like to see happen socially in my world. I feel like we've moved away from that, and gotten so into this sort of "nuclear" way of being, which is all about the individual. Group improvisation, if your intent is to see what's happening with the collective reality, is what I would dream and hope for in a social reality. More interaction, more community. What do we have as a group here? Not as individuals. So it can be a reflection of that, if that's your intent. You can take a bunch of egomaniacs and put them in a room and say, "OK, improvise," and it would end up all about themselves as individuals, really. That does nothing as far as shifting, or contributing to some kind of social change. It really depends on the attitude. But it can be that, I think.
That doesn't work as well, but as long as you have balance--if you've got someone who's more individualistic, and you've got other people who are more willing to give for the benefit of the group, it can work out just fine. The problem with music, and art in general, is you get rewarded for being a star. You don't get rewarded for being a group player. And so the kind of musicians who focus on collectivism don't get any stardom.
Tell me about it! That's interesting. You know, I was talking with Braxton the other day, and we were sort of hitting it like this. He's a great example of somebody who really moved his whole being into a collective way of approaching the music. When he was hanging out in the '70s, if you listen to the stuff he was doing with Barry [Altschul] and Dave [Holland], the saxophone stuff was on such a high level. It was burning everybody off the bandstand. No one could touch him, man. He already was way beyond. But he left that, at the beginning of the '80s, and brought his music much more into a collective reality. And I betcha that's contributed to less focus on him, less attention. Because they want that stuff you were talking about. They want this guy to step up and play this stuff that just wipes you out. But he already did that.
But that group was a lot more than just Braxton. Dave Holland is an anchor like very few.
He's one of the greatest. You know, that thing with him and Sam [Rivers], I got some bootlegs from Studio Rivbea... and it was David Holland's group. It was after Conference of the Birds, so David had these two gigs at Studio Rivbea. Somebody taped them. I don't know how I got them. But the saxophone playing, both Sam and Anthony, was on such a high level. Going on for a twenty-minute solo, and it was so happening. Every minute was just burning, you know? But he didn't stay there. He could have stayed right there and done that, but he didn't. He's another person who has a global vision that the collective reality of things is really important. And he wants his music to be about that, and it is about that. And that interests him. I did concerts with him later on, in the late '80s. Before we would start the gig, he would say, "I'm interested in coming up with a good ensemble sound. Let's stay conscious of the transparent space. Let's stay conscious of the balance. When you need to take your solos, jump on out and take your solos." But he was always talking about creating an ensemble sound. I probably learned that from him and Leo [Smith], actually. They always had that vision. It's a good vision.
So how did we get here? I forget what the question was. Oh yeah, the idea of collective improvisation is some kind of social reflection. Yeah, it definitely is. If the intent is there to do that.
It's sort of out of place. If you leave Western reality and go to African or China, there's a lot more focus on family, and the group. You belong to a portion of society. You're not the one... the richest guy, the best-dressed guy, or whatever. Your value as a human is based much more on your sensitivity to the other members of the group.
I agree with you completely. You couldn't have said it better. That says it all, you know.
You know, I gotta avoid that. I'm just here to ask questions! But it does strike me as out of place. It's not the way our culture works. How do you deal with that? You gotta make a living, and keep going from day to day, and feel like you're doing something meaningful. And you're surrounded by people who have a different vision. Do you feel driven by pursuing your musical vision?
Yeah. I would say "driven" is a good word. Very few of us could hang in here and deal with this unless we couldn't live without it. Because the economic reality is what it is, you know. I am driven by it. And all the other people who carry on, they're all driven by it, too.
What does it do for you?
The biggest thing it gives me is that it keeps me connected to truth. And connected to the creativity, which is connected to truth and the source. The universe is constantly being created and recreated. That's the difference from getting up at 9 and going to the factory and coming home... you might be making boxes at the factory, so that's creating. But it's still not the same process, you know?
Are you able to support yourself from this?
Yeah, I'm able to do it with thanks to the generous European market. Hopefully that never changes. Already it's gotten tougher... if it gets too tough, I might be down at Friendly's, you know, washing dishes or something. I have a nice scene in New York, also. I work quite a bit in New York. But I couldn't make it there, doing what I do... I'd have to change my structure if I was going to make a living just in New York. You couldn't do it just by creative music. If you couldn't travel--if you didn't have the European market--you'd have to play Broadway shows or something, like a lot of people do.
Let's see if we can close out with some other projects that are in the works. This is a brand new project: I'm starting a group which is going to be totally improvised. With Michael Rabinowitz on bassoon, and Steven Bernstein on slide trumpet, and myself, and Harvey Sorgen. We decided not to bring any compositions, but have the music be completely improvised. I'm kind of curious to see--you know how we were talking about collective reality--what kind of relationships all these people have. I have a sense that it could be quite interesting and magical. We have our first gig coming up in a couple of months. I've been playing with Michael Rabinowitz for years. I'm also a member of his quartet. There no one who can play bassoon like this man. He's truly an original. I'm thinking the bassoon and the slide trumpet could be an interesting texture, to get back to that. So that's the newest little endeavor.
Any other records in the pipeline?
Yeah, actually, the Fonda/Stevens Group is going into the studio again in December. We just finished a tour, and we want to go into the studio and document the music we've done on tour. The last three records have been live ones, so this will be the first studio record in probably four years, you know. So it's time for another studio date. The last one [Live At The Bunker] was with Paul Smoker on trumpet, but this one will be with Herb Robertson.
On to the Joe Fonda discography
