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Interview

Joey Baron
Web Site
April 2002



I've spent a lot of time just with the drums, knowing what they can do. What can the snare drum do? What can plastic heads do? What are the real properties, what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses and what are the limits?"




We'll Soon Find Out
Intuition
2000

Reviewed By
Glenn Astarita



Down Home
Intuition
1997

Reviewed By
Douglas Payne

Joey Baron


By Mike Brannon

Frank Zappa's now famous query, "does humor belong in music" seemed strange at first, especially considering it's source. Still, a valid question with the answer hopefully being, "no doubt". But where would music be without truth? Another strange question? Maybe. Where would life be with out honesty, (or humor for that matter)? For some, music is life. For those it's a valid question deserving an answer. Ask Joey Baron. It's not just needless philosophization, since a core component of Baron's concept is both telling, living and expecting the truth in life as well as expressing it in what he plays. He answers all of these questions with a resounding affirmative and in listening to him you find they comfortably coexist within the music he and his bands create, as they should. And it's a journey of discovery that's made enjoyable, with humor, surprise and intent internal interplay. And what good is the journey if it's not authentic?

Among the recordings that tell Baron's uniquely adventurous stories are the critically acclaimed "Killer Joey", "Raised Pleasure Dot", "Tongue in Groove" and "Crackshot". "Down Home", Baron's first release on Intuition was what the New Yorker called, "The most intriguing ensemble of the season" (yeah, I know it sounds like they're talking fashion). Accompanied by Ron Carter, Arthur Blythe and Bill Frisell, The Village Voice adds, "Is not only all star, but fascinatingly so."

Further testimony: "Is there anything Joey Baron can't do? Put a tricky chart in front of him, and he'll clarify complicated passages like a great actor doing Shakespeare. Turn him loose on simpler forms, and his witty phrasing and impossibly deep groove will make you smile almost as widely as he does whenever he's seated at the kit." - Modern Drummer, Feb. 2001

In Baron's own words he sums his motivation: "I'm primarily interested in making what I do inviting and fun. I'm not trying to impress people with how good I can play the drums or displaying my virtuosity as my main thing."

"What stirs me is some sort of soulful move hearing a singer sing a phrase that's just - pow! - and trying to get that kind of emotion out of the drums."

"I think a trade-mark of my style involves my getting a lot from a minimal arsenal of equipment. I just have hi-hats, a ride, a crash, a sizzle and a four piece kit... Number one, what I want to do is play music that is fun, that invites people in. If a person walked off the street into a performance of mine, he or she wouldn't need to understand the history of music to enjoy it. That's my job."

Though one of his longest standing working situations has been with Bill Frisell', Baron's also shared stage and/or studio with: John Abercrombie, Laurie Anderson, Chet Baker, Tony Bennett, Tim Berne, David Bowie, Randy Brecker, Dave Douglas, Elaine Elias, Brian Eno, Stan Getz, Dizzy Gillespie, Philip Glass, Jim Hall, Wayne Horvitz, Marc Johnson, Lee Konitz, Lounge Lizards, Joe Lovano, Pat Martino, Dave Sanborn, John Scofield, John Taylor and John Zorn.

Just back from a trip to Europe during a very active period, Baron kindly took some time out to elucidate on his work, past, present and future.

AAJ: How was Germany?

JB: It was great.

AAJ: Who were you playing with?

JB: I was just doing some rehearsing over there and just work on future planning... I had a gig in London. I was just working on some technical stuff and conceptual stuff in Germany. In London I played with John Zorn in a project called "The Gift".

AAJ: Who else is working on that?

JB: Zorn, a bassist named Trevor Dunn, Marc Ribot plays guitar, Cyro Baptista plays percussion, Roberto Rodriguez plays percussion and Jamie Saft plays keyboards.

AAJ: You had a trio with Ribot and Medeski.

JB: Yeah, that was a short lived project. We just got together and did a few gigs close to home. That was a few years ago.

AAJ: Yeah, I was talking to John a few years ago and he mentioned that was coming up. I was looking forward to it.

JB: Yeah, it was fun. It just got a little crazy with the scheduling. It was crazy because it was impossible to plan anything.

AAJ: What were you going for there...not the traditional organ trio.

JB: No, I just had a body of music and I wanted to hear that played with a different instrumentation and there were a couple of long, extended pieces that I had written that I basically don't do with anyone else. I really kind of wrote it for that situation. I just wanted to test the waters on that; see what it would sound like. There's one 30 minute piece that's inspired by a Jackson Pollack show. It was really cool and I was really happy with it, it was a lot of fun.

AAJ: I was actually going to ask you where your inspiration comes from and how you go about writing, since you mentioned it.

JB: I just try to listen to what's going on...inside, and a combination of that and sometimes sitting down at the drums. I mean, the drums are my instrument so that's where - if I need to sit down at something and generate, if it isn't in my head immediately, I sit down and play and come up with ideas or phrases. I start that way and then depending on if I'm hearing a melody, an actual pitched melody, I'll just listen to it the way I'm hearing it and I'll assign pitches to it and then if I'm hearing harmony I'll kind of flush that out. At that point go to a piano just to check that the sounds that I'm hearing in my head are what's actually (laughs), you know, technically correct. I write basically from the drums and only after I get the main sketches down then I'll go to a piano and fill in the details. I think a lot of people just use whatever method works for them. I know I've tried sitting down at the piano and coming up with things and it's not my instrument so I can't freely play it unless I've already got a sound in my head, and then I just search for what the notes are on the piano. But if I want to take that approach, I have to go from my instrument, which is the drumset, and create there. That's where my music is.

AAJ: You're from the South (Virginia). How much a part does that play in the way you sound?

JB: Well, I got exposure to a lot of rhythm & blues and some country music and a lot of it had to do with the time, the 60's. And there weren't such strict formats at shops, radio stations, concerts. It wasn't so strict like it is - it's been totally exploited - and that's got a big influence. I mean, if anything, the soul music aspect in the South is particularly different. At that time you had bands that were known only in certain territories.

AAJ: Regional groups, yeah.

JB: Yeah, and that might still be happening but you never hear about anybody anymore. And everything's gotten so hyped up, you know. That really influenced me a lot, hearing that. And there's a manner and a directness in which people relate to each other. That's an influence. And that's not to say that that doesn't happen anywhere else, but that was my experience and that was where I'd live.

AAJ: I was going to ask you about some of the projects and different things you've done, like the trio with Pat Martino and Harvie Swartz. Can you talk about that a little bit, how that came about and those gigs?

JB: I met Pat out in California when he was teaching at the Guitar Institute?

AAJ: GIT, yeah. That was a while ago.

JB: That's quite awhile ago and we played. We had a group and did some recording with Carl Schroeder who was absolutely a...he's just a wonderful force; great musician, great player. Carl Schroeder on piano, Bob Magnuson, who's also a wonderful bassist, and we had a quartet and we did some recording. We didn't do gigs. And years later I got a call in New York to do some things. And there were several bassists that played: Steve Laspina, Marc Johnson and Harvie. There was a recording; I think that he had to finish up some contractual things for a record company and so they made this record that was a live broadcast or something from Fat Tuesdays, a club that we played at. And we did some gigs around the area. And there's a moment a couple of years ago when I just couldn't work out the timing, the scheduling, but he was doing something with Joey DeFrancesco and I got called to do it and I was already booked and I couldn't make the whole thing. So they needed to get somebody who could do the whole thing.

AAJ: Was that enjoyable for you?

JB: Oh, are you kidding? Pat Martino!

AAJ: I know! (laughs)

JB: (laughs) He's like...I remember listening to him on records with Willis Jackson and those were some very influential records for me: Willis Jackson; that sound. You know a lot of guitar people, they listen to him today and they don't really understand about where he comes from and what's that's all about.

AAJ: Yeah, there was nothing like it at the time, you know.

JB: Yeah. And I don't know, he was just incredible and I love that kind of music, you know, that old style rhythm and blues music, and he came out of that. I think that's why we get along so well. When we play, we just had a ball. It was really a lot of fun.

AAJ: Yeah, it was like a jazz power trio.

JB: Yeah. And at the time when we were playing, his material had kind of gone back more reflecting on that part of his life. He wrote his own compositions, but they were swingin'. It was hard swinging material. It was really fun. He's brilliant, fantastic. Great guy.

AAJ: He's always been one of my favorite guitar players.

JB: And he's not a liar (laughs). He plays, you know, he tells the truth. It's really nice.

AAJ: For sure. How do you contrast that with working with Scofield. You did a lot of time with him.

JB: I don't contrast it (laughs). John is, first of all, an old, old friend. We met in the early 70's. He's just incredible. I remember first playing with him, then when I came to New York rehearsing - when he was with Miles they would get together and go over the heads, him and Mike Stern - and they would call me to come over and play with them, to do that and doing different gigs. And over the years, I mean we haven't played a lot, like on the road together but we always come together at different points and it's always a blast. He's such a deep player. He's just fantastic. He's 100% music. And he's influenced by Pat Martino, so it's like, there you get the influence...and he certainly knows were Pat came from (laughs). John has a real nasty...I mean his lines can get really nasty. It's really great.

AAJ: (laughs).

JB: When they were in the band, they would just get guys together so they could work on the heads and basically it was band type tunes with heads that were cued. But it was a big thrill for me. I had just come to New York and I was playing, "the book", you know (laughs).

AAJ: Yeah. I mean that's pretty cool to walk into something like that. You come to town and, you know...

JB: Well, it wasn't exactly like I walked into it, you know (laughs), but that's how...its like when you play with people its really about relationships, its not always about who is the most suited musically. It's really about your relationships with people and at that time I was scuffling a lot and I was open and ready to do anything: rehearse, just get together and jam or anything at that point.

AAJ: Right. Did you know anybody?

JB: Oh, I knew a ton of people but when you come to New York, unless you have really high political visibility, you have to get at the end of the line. And when I came to New York I had already been playing with a lot of people, singers mostly, and had been recording jazz records. But when you come to New York that doesn't really mean so much unless that you're with a super, super, current, happening name, like Weather Report, at the time, or somebody who's in the business...represents something. It doesn't really have a lot to do with music. It's very political. And your relationships with people, that's important. I mean, John and I were friends and he needed to do something, he knew that I always wanted to play and there you go. And that's usually what happens. I mean, when you get busy or you don't have time to do that kind of stuff so much, so you pass it on, "oh, I can't make it but I know this guy that just moved into town..." and blah, blah, blah.

AAJ: Yeah, you've just got to be in the vicinity and be ready.

JB: Yeah. I mean, New York is a central meeting ground and there isn't always the most work here. Most people, in terms of playing music, performing music - you have to travel.

AAJ: How did you go about developing your way of tuning the drum kit?

JB: I'm still working on it. Its different all the time, I mean it changes a lot. I just try and not think so much about having a rigid approach. If I need a very tiny sound for something, to make the music work that's what I try and do. I've spent a lot of time just with the drums knowing what they can do. What can the snare drum do? What can plastic heads do? What are the real properties, what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses? And what are the limits? What are the limits of a tom tom? What's the limits of a small bass drum? What's the sound of a drum with one head on it as opposed to two? I just spend as much time as I can investigating it, and when I say that I mean, like, on the job. Sometimes I'll just try things. I might not know, but I'll try them. And that's how I find out. So, basically, you have to be flexible and its about music, its not about when I play with such and such a drum. Its not the person, its like if you play with someone and then they do a piece of music that needs a sound to make it happen, its about that. I've done gigs where I've changed my tuning almost every tune. Or right in sections of the tune. It just depends, I just try and keep my ears open for what's going on. And I've arrived at a home base of where I start from, but that's always subject to change. Even if I'm playing a solo concert I'll start out one way and if I hear things going in a certain direction that requires a different sound, its the same as if I'm playing with someone. I'm just listening to the music that's happening. If it sounds like it needs something that's really dead and percussive I'll do whatever it takes to get that sounds immediately: throw a towel on the drum head or place something up against the bass drum.

AAJ: Right, well, that makes sense. How about working with Frisell. He did your "Down Home" record, among other things. What made you choose him in that particular group: Ron Carter, Arthur Blythe?

JB: Because that band was just a realization of a sound I've always heard and a combination of qualities. And Bill has the quality. He's got a really great sense of time. And it's not something that is always apparent. People always notice the most surface things about their playing. Everybody thinks of Bill as...

AAJ: Textural...

JB: Textural and a colorist and all that, but they miss the thing. I, from knowing him so well and playing with him years and years, I know that other side really well. And I wanted to bring that out, front and center, in him. Basically its a rhythm band. I wanted to be able to have a combination of people who related to rhythm with a really unique and articulate sense. And its not like he's just good time, he knows how to create a feel. He knows how to get a feel going and put personality into it. But the time thing is just really important. I mean its just really special to find people who have a really good sense of time.

AAJ: Do you find that different people, not just guitarists, have different senses of time?

JB: Yeah, I mean, time is a technical thing. Feel is the other part of that.

AAJ: What they do with it.

JB: Yeah. You could have perfect time and its dead right, (laughs) and that's the clue, its dead (laughs). Having a feel is another thing. And the feel - there's give and take - there's rushing, there's dragging, there's pulling and pushing. And that's human. And its cool.

AAJ: Yeah. There's a place for all of it.

JB: Yeah. Everybody's got their own feel. Not everybody but the people who are really developed, they have a real unique sense. Like Pat Martino. When he's playing lines you can hear his sense of phrasing. You know in two notes its Pat Martino and partly because the pitch information and the phrasing. Its all there. Its all his. Its his own. Same with Bill or anybody. And the reason why I really focus on Bill is Bill , to me, plays the most music, for what I was looking for. He can really take something that's either very complicated or very simple and he doesn't draw attention to whatever that is about, he draws attention to the music that is there. And I was looking for that kind of quality in everyone in that band and that's why I picked him.

AAJ: So you have a particular philosophy of music that you can express? I mean, as far as what's of value to you and what you're looking for in a performance.

JB: Well, I like it when people are honest and I don't have much patience for people who lie.

AAJ: You're talking musically...I take it.

JB: (laughs) That's up to you (laughs). I don't have much patience for people who lie. And it comes through in the music. I mean that really is so strong when somebody just plays music. And it's rare. You get a lot of people who can play things really fast and make it through really complicated things, but the people who play music, that's a special thing. Even with people who know how to do it, its a special event and I just feel its to be cherished and its special. Its not a product that can be market really and say at nine o'clock we're gonna do this. Its something that takes patience and attention. And those things have kind of (laughs) seemed to be lost these days.

AAJ: (laughs) Of course, in the real world we're expected to, you know, go on at this hour and you're expected to deliver.

JB: Yeah. And to a certain point that happens but there are certainly, there's alternatives to that. There has to be something else other than the jazz club, you know (laughs)...as a venue for these things because that has become like a showbiz outlet. But, I don't know, my philosophy of music is I just try to listen for it and try to play it as well as I can every time. I don't always get to where I want to go but the path that's along the way, that's the point, just trying.

AAJ: Right. There's a couple of quotes...this is you: "If I had to describe my sound, I'd call it loose and slow...and soulful, hopefully. What stirs me is some sort of soulful move and trying to get that kind of emotion out of the drums". How do you go about that?

JB: You listen. You have to listen. You can't do anything that you really don't hear. You can get it out of a book or someone can show you something, but if you're not really hearing it inside you're not going to be able to put much belief in it. I mean I know all about all kinds of things and techniques and tricky things but I just don't hear it so I don't waste time trying to force myself to play stuff that I don't hear. I don't fancy myself as being a technical player although a lot of people say: your chops are this and that and how do you do this so fast...it's like I'm not even relating to music that way.

AAJ: It's not about that.

JB: No. It might, technically, be fast or it might be difficult moving around the drums but at that moment when I'm doing whatever people are noticing its just something that happens to make the music go and I've just done my homework in terms of how to get around the drums and to get the sound. So then its not a problem, its like, oh I hear something and I'll go for it. And I wait. You can't always be tentative and you can't always be a bull in a china shop. I think it's being fluid. You have to be fluid and really its just listening. I mean if you do your homework and you know what your instrument can do and learn how to really play it the rest is, you just listen and that takes care of itself.

AAJ: Your influences include Art Blakey, Ray Charles, Booker T. & the M.G.'s, James Brown, The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix. Who did you study with?

JB: I studied with...my first drum teacher was a guy named Mac McClure. He passed away almost right at the end of my lessons with me. He was not a player. He was the greatest teacher I ever had. And what he taught me was the rudiment and he taught me how to read rhythms and that was it. But it was the way he taught me. That was what was incredible, the way he taught me. That's really what I got from him. He really instilled a sense of how to related things to people. There was a sense of something...he had a total respect for his students.

AAJ: This was in Virginia?

JB: Yeah. I was really a young kid at the time. You know, the best way to teach is to model it yourself and he never even talked about it. he never even talked about it I could just tell he respected me so much as a young person - he's an adult - that's very rare. It's one thing to say, ok kid, you gotta do this, you gotta do that...it's one thing to just relate the information. But how you relate it can make all the difference in, when you leave the lesson, wanting to...you just can't wait to get home and open and get to work on it or you just throw the book in the case and, I'm glad that's over. And that's what I learned from him. He gave me that and I had some other teachers that had that same quality, not drum teachers but band directors. A guy named Tuscan Jasper. And he's an incredible trumpet player, like in the Clifford Brown tradition. And he had a sound that just was so full of heart. And just that! He never said anything...hey, listen to my sound, I have a big heart, you know, (laughs). He never said that, like you could hear that. Again, you have to listen and take the time to find out what you're listening to and let it effect you, however it effects you and pay attention to it. And again, he just modeled that and it was important to him to just have that tone when he played and again: respect. A respect of students. It really makes a difference. But for drumming I had Mac McClure and there was another guy named Dick Proctor who was like the local big band drummer, kind of like a Buddy Rich style drummer. What I got from him was how to read charts basically and technical things like to move around the drumset and different little beats to play, you know in that time: dance band beats. If somebody called a Samba or a Rhumba, I mean I never heard of those things before and he just gave me like the real basic, not exactly authentic, but the dance band, watered down versions of it (laughs). But it did turn me on to getting different sounds out of the drumset. He would show me things and I would take it further and turn it around or play it on different parts of the drums. And then after that most of what I learned has been from watching people. There's another great drummer down there named Dave Hoggard who has a nephew or something named Jay Hoggard. Anyhow, Dave, he was a huge influence. He played at this restaurant near where I lived five night a week. I would go to watch him play and he would always let me sit in. It was just amazing. He had this drumset that was like to me not a big deal at all. It wasn't the best stuff, it wasn't the shiniest or the flashiest and yet when he played it just sounded like a million bucks. And that taught me a lot; something about that, when he picked up a pair of brushes it just sounded like snow hitting the ground: very soft, very full, very elegant, extremely sophisticated. He was an amazing influence for me. And these were all local people, that's what I had. I didn't live in New York, I wasn't able to go see Tony Williams when he was a kid, I didn't see Philly Joe, I didn't really get to see people like that until way after they had hit the scene and maybe they weren't doing the same things that they were doing when they first hit the scene.

AAJ: I remember when I was a kid I actually got to see Gene Krupa.

JB: Oh yeah!

AAJ: That was kind of cool.

JB: I did see him in Washington one time. I saw Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich. I used to go see Buddy Rich as much as possible because he and Gene Krupa were like my introduction, mainly I think 'cause they were visible in society. And through them I learned about Joe Jones and Shelly Manne and Kenny Clarke and all the wonderful people who helped push things out and forward. And you know I went to Berklee, for a couple of semesters, in Boston. It was a good meeting ground. I didn't learn so much there in the classroom but I wasn't involved in the right classroom (laughs). That was part of the problem but basically I went there to meet people and that's where I met Scofield and Lovano and Billy Drewes and James Williams and Chip Jackson, Steve Slagle. There's a whole bunch of us who were up there that met at that time period...Dennis Irwin.

AAJ: So what years were you there?

JB: Around '72, '73. I was just there for two semesters but basically I just played all the time. And Alan Dawson was of course an influence, for me, because I knew Tony Williams had studied with him. And I was of the mentality: wow, if I could study with him I'd be able to play like Tony (laughs). And I learned a big lesson there (laughs).

AAJ: (laughs) It didn't happen that way?

JB: No. And plus I had figured out a lot of things. I didn't really acknowledge how much I had figured out by that time, anyhow. I just discounted how much work I had actually I had done and I was just expecting to get everything from Alan. And basically, Alan was a very methodical teacher. He had a definite system he used with everyone and it took me by surprise. I thought it was going to be rather different. And I realized that I had already figured a lot of things out that his system addressed. And his system was just an organized way of going about it. So I took that in and I worked on it, but it taught me a lot, like, this has nothing to do with playing music like Tony Williams was doing. And that really, really turned me around. That really was a hard lesson (laughs) for me. And there's another drummer there named Gene Roma. And he was actually, in a funny way, more of an influence than Alan. Alan was a tremendous...he was such a kind person and just an incredible model of effortless mastery of technique. Not the Kenny Werner book (laughs).

AAJ: (laughs).

JB: It appeared to be effortless but he had worked his ass off and he was like a ballet dancer on the drums. He was so beautiful to watch play. And his sound was an influence.

AAJ: I actually had helped Alan carry his drums once. Being such a Martino fan I think I wanted to talk to him about all those Prestige sessions they did. I didn't realize you had worked with David Bowie.

JB: Yeah. That was just in the studio. It was for a record, I think it was called "Outside". Brian Eno had given him my name because I had done something with him around that same time period and he enjoyed the experience and then right after we worked he was on this Bowie project and they were mixing and they didn't like the mix they were coming up with and Brian Eno said, "wait a minute, I know this guy, he can come in. Let him play around with it, see if he can do something with it". So they called me to come in and play some overdubs on some tracks that they had already done. And in the process, David Bowie was like...a really nice man. He's really great. Great to meet, great to work with. And he got really excited and he just flew in a bass player from Israel and got his guitarist, Carlos Alomar and the other guitarist who's name escapes me at the moment. Yves laGrelle? And we started recording in a mixing studio and just laying down tracks and he was really excited. It was really a great experience for me because I didn't really know that much about David Bowie prior to that. I knew that he was a big, big, big star but I honestly hadn't been listening to his music all that much. When he first came on the scene I was a jazz fanatic and outside of "Fame" I didn't really hear a lot of his music so when I got the call I thought, "wow, this would be a great way to learn about David Bowie" (laughs). And he can really sing, man. He's incredible. He's got some pipes.

AAJ: I know. Had you played much rock up to that point?

JB: Yeah. Even though I'm talking from a jazz slant when I started playing that was in the mid-60's. All my first bands were all rock and roll bands and soul bands. Bands that did both. It was the style of the day. It was very in to stretch out and improvise so there was a big jazz element. That part of jazz was a part of my initial experience in playing with people, like, let's jam (laughs). I mean we might not be playing sophisticated things like "Little Rootie Tootie" or standard tunes and stuff but the element was there. But yeah, I played a lot of rock and roll. Not on major name levels but that was a part of the music that was going on when I started playing, so its inside. What I was doing there wasn't so much about that with David Bowie. He was looking for treatment of a certain sound. He was looking for ways that someone would treat something uniquely rather than just come in and play a backbeat. If he wanted that he could call a million people. But it was a really fun experience.

AAJ: Sounds like it. So, what are you working on these days?

JB: Lately I've been working on doing triple 'p' rolls.

AAJ: That's interesting. I just saw Metheny's new group last night with Antonio Sanchez and he mentioned that one of the reasons he hired him for the group was due to his ability to play extremely quiet. So what are your upcoming projects?

JB: Well, I'm working with John Abercrombie and Marc Johnson and Mark Feldman at the Jazz Standard this week (new CD is "Cat 'n' Mouse" released 2/26). It's going incredible. Every night's a blast. In a couple of weeks I'm playing at the Bluenote with my band with Ron Carter and Bill Frisell and Arthur (Blythe). It's going to be for a week at the Bluenote club. And then shortly after that, the 19th, I'm coming to Chicago playing with Masada with John Zorn, Dave Douglas and Greg Cohen. And the very next day I'll be recording in Oslo with John Taylor and Marc Johnson. John Taylor is a fantastic, brilliant. It's kind of a busy period. Right after that doing some playing with Abecrombie, a little bit, with Eliane Elias. I'm traveling a lot right now.

AAJ: Yeah, sounds like it. Well, all the best with everything, Joey, and thanks.


Mike Brannon is guitarist/writer for the Synergy Group. The latest release is "Barcodes" w/ Trey Gunn of King Crimson and Jeff Coffin of the Grammy-winning Bela Fleck and the Flecktones. Synergy's followup, "Later", w/ special guests, Harvie Swartz, Paul Wertico and others will be released in late '02.


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