By Allen J. Huotari

The UK jazz scene has produced an inordinate number of talented saxophonists, both relatively well known (Evan Parker, John Surman, Elton Dean, Lol Coxhill) and relatively obscure (Chris Biscoe, Trevor Watts, Tony Coe, Ray Warleigh, the late Gary Windo). But what characterizes most of these musicians is not only their remarkable abilities, but also their longevity, relentless pursuit of new musical territory within jazz, and their dogged determination to work outside the "confines" of jazz.

No exception to this characterization and one about to receive a much deserved higher profile outside the Britjazz scene, is PAUL DUNMALL, thanks to the release of his latest recording BEBOP STARBURST, courtesy of Cuneiform Records. Although his career has charted a circuitous path, performing and recording with a multitude of nearly legendary artists (refer to "Paul Dunmall biography/selected discography"), Dunmall is probably best known as 1/4 of Mujician (also part of the Cuneiform roster) in which he works with veteran UK jazz pianist Keith Tippett and long time rhythm section partners, Paul Rogers (bass) and Tony Levin (drums).

However, for BEBOP STARBURST, Dunmall leads an octet which includes all of Mujician in addition to Simon Pickard (tenor sax), Annie Whitehead (trombone), Chris Bridges (trombone), and Gethin Liddington (trumpet).

While all of Mujician are present, BEBOP STARBURST is NOT simply Mujician plus guests. On the contrary, with the recording, Paul Dunmall "summons his Be-Bop roots with a vengeance…and effectively illustrates the boundless concepts that could be derived from Be-Bop as a musical art form…the Octet aggressively takes on its own identity from the onset. Dunmall maintains the patented swift pace and 'free-style' approach (of Mujician) yet also explores crafty and fertile brass arrangements…twisting the notions of Be-Bop to various extremes." (Glenn Astarita - AAJ February 1999 Modern Jazz Reviews)

AAJ is pleased to present, as the first installment in what is hoped to be a continuing series of profiles of UK jazz musicians, an interview with Paul Dunmall (special thanks to Joyce Feigenbaum of Cuneiform for facilitating the interview, and to Glenn Astarita for suggesting this project and acting as intermediary)

ALL ABOUT JAZZ: Why, what, when, or who inspired you to pick up the saxophone?

PAUL DUNMALL: I started on clarinet when I was 12 and it is strange how it happened. It was lunchtime at school when one of the boys in my class, named Colin Bell came over and said "Mr. Morgan is starting clarinet lessons and I want to sign on. Will you come with me?" I said "Yeah O.K." When he signed the teacher said "How about you?" So I signed as well. Over 30 people signed on; Colin Bell never had a lesson. I don't think he touched a clarinet. By the end, I was the only one left playing.

I got into the saxophone when I went to a gig with my father who was the drummer of a quartet. He introduced me to a tenor saxophone player who showed me his instrument. I thought it looked and felt amazing and decided I would like to play saxophone. A month or so later I found a cheap Hawkes alto in my local music shop, which I bought. I was still at school so I had to pay off the debt weekly from my paper rounds. Then I started to listen to all the greats on record, too many to mention here, and finally came to John Coltrane who is still my favourite. After a few months on alto I got a tenor and joined my first proper group soul band "Element of Truth". I was 15.

AAJ: How would you describe your musical education? (i.e., does it include formal training? Completely informal? Both ?)

PD: I had classical tuition on clarinet from Alfred Randall and Gerald Bodmer and I am self-taught on saxophone, although Kathy Stobart gave me a few lessons when I worked at Bill Lewington's music shop.

AAJ: please tell AAJ about the funniest or most embarrassing moment you've had while performing

PD: I was in a club in Paris with the group "Spirit Level". We were playing "I Want To Talk About You", the standard. All four of us got completely lost on the chord sequence, everyone was in a different place and finally we ground to a halt. We had to laugh. What else could we do?

AAJ: Phil Miller humorously wrote in the liner notes to In Cahoots "Recent Discoveries" that "the average British jazz musician earns a living by being in so many different bands that recognition of the other musicians must sometimes be a problem...over a couple of pints after the gig, the Alan Wharton Quartet suddenly realize, amidst much backslapping, that they are the Bill Brunskill Quintet minus old whatshisname".

But seriously, in such an intimate (and some might say "isolated") working environment, how is dilution and homogenization of band identity and sound avoided? i.e., How is it that the Paul Dunsmall Octet isn't simply a large scale Mujician? Or that Elton Dean's "Silent Knowledge" isn't merely Mujician minus Keith Tippett but plus Sophia Domancich and Dean ? Or that "Bladik" avoids being Mujician plus Dean and Roswell Rudd?

PD: Well, firstly, the octet isn't simply a large scale Mujician because Mujician is a totally free improvising group which never uses written music and the octet has many written passages. As soon as you add or take away a musician from an ensemble, especially improvising groups, it changes quite dramatically. The chemistry between the musicians changes! A musician becomes super-sensitive when performing - listening to all the musicians' contributions around him and that makes him respond accordingly.

Take the Bladik recording. We didn't think "Ah! Mujician and Elton and Roswell. It was six musicians ready to improvise together on equal terms to create the best music they can.

Interestingly, Paul Rogers has put a quartet together which you could say is Mujician, but instead of Keith Tippett on piano, its Sophia Domancich. Nothing could be further from the truth. I recommend that if you are a fan of this music, listen to a Mujician record and then listen to Paul's quartet "Time of Brightness" on Rare Music and the difference is amazing. One is not better than the other, but you get the idea of how one musician can change the music.

AAJ: do you have any preparatory routines or rituals prior to performing live?

PD: I find that, before a gig, I feel tired, with no energy. I try to be quiet. It may be because the body knows what is coming. After the gig I find that I am full of energy. With Mujician, the rule is we never talk about what we are going to play. We walk on stage and - away we go and trust to the music. Many people say we must have worked some of those things out before, they sound like written passages. Well we don't. It would ruin everything we are about - totally free improvisation, trusting in our ears and intuition.

AAJ: what stimulates or excites you about performing in a duet or trio scenario as opposed to a larger ensemble ?

PD: You can be very intimate with a duo or trio and get subtle things happening and there is a lot of space to move around. With a large ensemble it has to be more disciplined and all the players have to be acutely aware of what is going on or it can be a mess. Although sometimes a mess can be great.

AAJ: with regard to improvising with a long term partner, Tim Hodgkinson writes of his relationship with Ken Hyder: "Over years of playing and arguing and arguing and playing, two questions seem to have occupied us the most. The first is a question for any ongoing improvising duo: What can you carry forward from one playing session to the next, that does not compromise the improvisational activity? Can you get consistently good at improvising together without repeating yourselves by using conscious or unconscious rules?" Extrapolating this to your own career in duo, trio, quartet, and moresome situations, how do groups which include Paul Dunmall approach these problems/challenges? How does Mujician approach these problems/challenges ?

PD: If you are playing with great musicians you know that they are trying to make the music have emotional power and, if all the performing musicians are in this state, the music "will be as good as it gets according to the individuals' abilities. I find that Mujician constantly finds this place of magic and, when it is at its best, it has been some of the finest music at I have ever been involved with. All four of us think about spirituality in music and that is our aim, to get this across to the audience and make our concerts an uplifting experience.

AAJ: what was the motivation to use bagpipes for the latest Mujician release ("Colours Fulfilled")? (to the interviewers knowledge, the only jazz recording ever to feature bagpipes)

PD: It's a long story. I met Tony Roberts, who is a remarkable musician, when I joined Danny Thompson's "Whatever" group in 1988. Tony got me interested in a lot of different ethnic and early music instruments. I finally bought some Bulgarian pipes, then some Northumberland pipes which I really worked at and led me on to the border pipes which are the pipes I play on "Colours Fulfilled". I have always felt that Mujician would be open to any instrument and that it would create some interesting areas for the group to explore and I think the pipes work well. By the way, what about the recording of Rufus Harley on Scottish bagpipes with Sonny Rollins called "Cutting Edge"?

AAJ: what musicians would you most like to work with that you haven't yet worked with?

PD: I tend to find it is better to build up a musical relationship over some time to get the best results. Really, the people I work with I feel are some of the greatest musicians around anywhere, so I ant very happy with that situation. Saying that, I have always fancied playing with Rashied Ali and Cecil Taylor. I love the drums so I would have liked to play more with Tony Oxley and Han Bennink.

AAJ: do you have any plans to visit or record in America ?

PD: Well, Mujician is playing at Victoriaville, Canada this May and I had hoped to record for CIMP at that time but it won't be possible. I hope to be coming over sometime this year, 1999, but it is in the very early stages of coming together.

AAJ: let's shift attention to other projects temporarily Please tell us about your trio with guitarist John Adams & drummer Mark Sanders

PD: I met John Adams through Tony Levin and I have known Mark for many years. Somehow we were thrown together to do a gig in Belfast, and it was electric! I suggested we should record the trio and that was our Hatology release called "Ghostly Thoughts". We have been working together ever since and have recorded another CD's worth of material which I hope to release this year. I do like this trio very much. We spark each other off and it is very exciting. I think John and Mark are great, creative musicians.

AAJ: you've recorded as a member of the John Law Extremely Quartet. Could you share some information about this group?

PD: When John phoned me and told me about his idea to form a quartet with Barry Guy, Louis Moholo and myself, it sounded like a very interesting project and I thought, this must be a powerful group and it lived up to all expectations. I really like the idea of Barry and Louis together and they were brilliant, such intensity and activity, and great dynamics. It doesn't work much, this group, but it is always a joy when it does.

AAJ: it is easily imaginable that being surrounded by a large number of very talented musicians (London Jazz Composers Orchestra) is both inspiring and intimidating. How has participation in the LJCO influenced your work ?

PD: I have always felt it to be an honour to be in this legendary group. I have the utmost respect for Barry. It is truly a labour of love, although sometimes he would rehearse the group without mercy, probably because he wants his music played correctly - quite right too. I remember after a 12. hour session in Switzerland I said to lead trumpeter, Henry Lowther, "How is your lip, Henry?" and he said "What lip?" I think that sums up the LJCO. Barry wants every ounce. He wants total commitment from the band and, when the band's on song its a monster. Both Barry and his wife Maya work very hard to get good money, hotels and food for the orchestra and it is appreciated when you are on the road.

AAJ: for those who are familiar with your jazz profile, the fact that you've also established a presence in the British "folk rock" community might be viewed to be an unusual and unexpected. How did you come to collaborate with singer Polly Bolton ? How did you come to be involved with the Richard Thompson/Danny Thompson collaboration "Industry"?

PD: I have known Polly for over 20 years. She has a superb voice and she lives close by, so we do the occasional project together. I am interested in folk music and Polly is interested in improvising so it works well. The project with Richard and Danny was very enjoyable. Richard was great to work with and, of course, the mighty nanny Thompson is always fun to be with. A great bass player, that big sound he gets, so it was a joining of folk and jazz. Folk music has always been a great source of inspiration, especially the ethnic music of the world. When Paul Rogers and I got our folk duo together, we discussed these different areas and decided to use our own folk melodies but then to play tree improvisation, although lately the melodies have hardly been played before we dismantle theta and get straight to the improvising.

AAJ: you've performed in improvisational scenarios with electronics composers/musicians Joseph Hyde and Alistair MacDonald. Is collaboration with electronics a new or long existing interest?

PD: I first started getting into electronics about 10 years ago with a project with Peter Brandt. We used computer sound and then played over the top of it. The difference with Joe and Alastair is that we do it in a live situation and they feed me sounds to work with and sometimes play me back what I have just played. It's another branch of the improvising tree.

AAJ: what experiences or information from the folk and electronics projects do you find useful for application to your own projects, to Mujician, or to other jazz projects ?

PD: It keeps your ears fresh and open. A musician should always be looking to expand his horizons and find new ways to express the music.

AAJ: for the hardcore musos reading AAJ: what equipment do you use (reeds, mouthpieces, etc.)

PD: At the moment I am using a new Keilworth SX90R tenor with a metal Otto Link 10 mouthpiece, an older Model, with medium hard La Voz reeds. My other tenor is a 1948 Selmer Superaction which I played for about 9 years with various Claud Lakey mouthpieces with hard La Voz reeds. I also play a Selmer Mark 6 soprano, Conn Crossbar Baritone1 a Conn C Melody, and a Selmer Mark 6 Alto.

AAJ: could you please provide a list of your Top 10 Desert Island Discs? (If stranded on a desert island, what 10 recordings would you like to have with you?)

PD:

1. A Love Supreme - John Coltrane
2. Sunship - John Coltrane
3. Live in Japan - John Coltrane
4. St Matthew's Passion - Bach
5. Rite of Spring - Stravinsky
6. Milestones - Miles Davis
7. Indian Classical Piece - A sunset raga
8. Colours Fulfilled - Mujician
9. Requiem - Ligeti
10. Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix

AAJ: Finally, a non-musical question. Your talents and skill as wood engraver has graced the cover art of Mujician and others. Is wood engraving a hobby or has it been a vocation? (Please elaborate)

PD: I started wood engraving in 1980 and it is a hobby. Engraving is such a precise skill, not like me at all! Once you have made the cut into the wood there is no going back. I have done some etching and that is much freer, more like the music I play, but I do like working with wood.

AAJ: Thank you, Paul Dunmall, for taking some time out to chat with All About Jazz.

Paul Dunmall Discography and Time Line