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.
Interview
Chuck Nessa - 1967

Chuck Nessa
March 2001



Part 1
Part 2



"...the early recordings are sort of modeled after other Central Avenue jump band good time music, because you could get a record date doing that sort of thing. But Mingus would always do something to push it a little further, to get himself out there a little more."




Charles "Baron" Mingus:
West Coast, 1945-49
Uptown
2000

Charles "Baron" Mingus:
West Coast, 1945-49
Reviewed by

Don Williamson

Mingus at 78 rpm: An Interview with Producer Chuck Nessa


By Lazaro Vega

After nearly 50 years Charles Mingus's first recordings as a bandleader have been unearthed in the single disc CD "Charles 'Baron' Mingus, West Coast, 1945-49" (Uptown 27.48). Mingus's earliest recordings find the virtuoso bassist already pushing at the boundaries of jazz composition. These vital 78-rpm recordings show a breadth to Mingus's creativity, which he amplified throughout his celebrated life in music.

Mingus (b. 4/22/22, d. 1/79) is well remembered as a jazz bassist who advanced the instrument's tradition created by Duke Ellington's Jimmy Blanton.

Moreover as a bandleader and composer Charles Mingus was able to create a body of work that redefined the musical interplay known as collective improvisation, updating it for the atomic age with virtuosity ushered in with WWII era musicians.

Yet how and when Mingus the bandleader and composer arrived at his own musical identity, a combination of musical influences from Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie, the Black Church, and Duke Ellington to the classical composers J.S. Bach and Richard Strauss, has been clouded by the obscurity of his early work as a leader, music recorded for five California based independent record labels in the mid-1940's.

Now, after five years of painstaking, detailed research and investigation, producers Robert Sunenblick and Chuck Nessa of Uptown Records have released all 26 of those early sides, published for the first time with accurate personnel inside the accompanying 96 page booklet, as "Charles 'Baron' Mingus, West Coast, 1945 to '49." (A project abandoned by the Smithsonian Institute several years ago because the material was so difficult to come by).

Researcher Chuck Nessa describes his vital role in this project to Blue Lake Public Radio's Jazz Director Lazaro Vega:

CN: I helped and advised producer Bob Sunenblick every step of the way, from helping identify soloists, to finding musicians, to proofreading and re-writing some of the liner notes and copy.

He sent me DATS of all the different transfers. I mean there were transfers made of multiple copies of these 78s done by three different engineers. I'm sure there are some sides in there that have had 10 transfers made to get the best version. All that stuff would be Fed-Ex'd to me and I'd give him feedback or that sort of help.

AAJ: What did you know about this music before you began your participation as co-producer on this historical re-issue project?

CN: I knew that there was a body of work of Mingus's in the '40's in L.A. There had been a bootleg LP put out in Europe on the Swingtime Label that had four of these titles on it. Those were the only titles that had ever been re-issued on LP or CD or anything until, I think it was last year, two different titles showed up on a Rhino "Central Avenue" anthology of music in L.A. at the time.

So six of the titles had been re-issued in any form before this CD came out. Also, in various discographies there had been tunes listed that I've never heard or never heard of anybody who had heard them.

AAJ: So these 78s are very hard to find.

CN: They're extremely rare. In fact, a couple of the tunes listed in the discographies as being Mingus items weren't. They just happened to be adjacent master numbers on the same record label.

I know two that are in all the discographies right now as Mingus items are "Love On A Greyhound Bus" and "Ashby De La Zooch," both of which are just sort of inane pop, '40's pop ditties done by an orchestra with a very gooey vocal trio or quartet singing them, just real novelty numbers that have nothing to do with Mingus.

I mean, there was even speculation that Irving Ashby was the guitarist on the date since the one song was called "Ashby De La Zooch." It actually turns out to be a Wartime English song about a resort, a seaside resort or something by the name of Ashby De La Zooch.

AAJ: So you were basically unraveling a big mystery.

CN: Oh yeah.

AAJ: And how long did this take?

CN: I worked on it pretty thoroughly for about five years. The only personnel that were known for sure were on the first two dates and that's because they were printed on the labels of the records so everybody knew who was playing on those. The rest of them, people had guessed certain musicians here and there. Some were correct and some were incorrect.

I would say 90 percent of the personnel were unknown.

AAJ: So how do you even begin a project like that? Where do you start?

CN: Listening, and picking things out. I know there's one date where the pianist quotes "Buttons and Bows," that's his opening phrase in his solo. And you're thinking about people in L.A. at the time (1945-49) and who might know show tunes and what not. So you just go from things like that.

I know that on the last date, on "Inspiration" on the big band date, the piano player had a very polished and sophisticated, very hip sound for 1949. So I said to Bob, "Why don't you give Russ Freeman a call and see if he has any idea who it might be?"

So Bob sent him a tape and Russ Freeman said, "Yeah, I think that's me." Things just happen that way, just listening and putting one and another together. Also on that date, which was billed as Charles Mingus, or, I guess that was the one record where he's billed as "Charlie Mingus And His 22 Piece Bebop Big Band," and then it says in parentheses: "(Stan Kenton Sidemen)."

We knew that in the spring of 1949 Kenton had laid off his band and that some of his band members showed up on other big band dates. Bob called Buddy Childers, who had been on an Earl Spencer date in the spring of 1949, along with Art Pepper and Laurindo Almeida. He immediately picked himself out playing on it and said, "Oh yeah, that's me, and I can hear Art in there." He pointed out where Art, you can hear him playing sort of obbligato figures underneath something else that was going on. [Childers] said he, Almeida and Pepper all made various dates at the time together and that Art usually found the gig.

You never would have thought of Art Pepper playing on a Mingus date.

AAJ: But he was a hustler and landed jobs for everybody.

CN: Sure, sure. Also he had worked with Mingus earlier in a different band, in a club. So they did have some acquaintance.

AAJ: What do you think is the single clearest insight this group of recordings has given you regarding the music of Mingus? It's described in one part of the booklet as "the genesis of his later masterpieces."

CN: It's sort of all over the place...I'll put it this way: you have to understand the sort of sociology of L.A. at the time, what the independent recording scene was like and was saleable. So the early recordings are sort of modeled after other Central Avenue jump band good time music, because you could get a record date doing that sort of thing. But Mingus would always do something to push it a little further, to get himself out there a little more. Such as some unusual original compositions, or whatever: he'd slip in one out of the three, whatever, just trying to get his own music out there.

AAJ: In some of these things there are harmonies and background figures that are absolutely not from the jump band vocabulary. They're really advanced.

CN: Oh, sure, sure. It's obviously a very sophisticated musician for both his age and the world he was working in at the time.

AAJ: I'm wondering about some of the more obscure musicians illuminated in the brief biographical sections in the CD booklet, who were some of the biggest surprises for you?

CN: Well the real surprise is a guy that I'm sure nobody will have heard of. His name is Herb Caro, a clarinet and saxophone player. He plays various tenor solos on here, he plays baritone in a big band and baritone saxophone solos on another small band, and clarinet in ensemble. A young guy that befriended Mingus in San Francisco and he actually worked Mingus's last four record dates in California.

Then he promptly went off to New York in search of Charlie Parker and caught the disease of many of those who did the same, then came back home to San Francisco and died of an overdose while in his early 20's. But he's a very interesting player: obviously influenced by Lester in his solos. He sounds at times like he could be Brew Moore or something. And then with his baritone playing he sounds similar to Serge Chaloff. But he's a very young guy, obviously very bright, in his formative years. I can't imagine what he would have turned into had he survived.

AAJ: There are many not so obscure musicians here, in fact people who played a vital role in jazz, for instance trombonist Britt Woodman, a future Ellingtonian and long-time Mingus collaborator, and Britt Woodman's brother, William, a tenor player with a sound like 1930's era tenor man Chu Berry. There's the great "modern" jazz tenor of Lucky Thompson, who also recorded with Charlie Parker and later Miles Davis. And Buddy Collette whose often described as being one of Mingus's early influences and mentors. A young Eric Dolphy is here, and a young Cal Tjader. Is there anything surprising in their playing for you?

CN: No, just the consistency and high level of professionalism. The Woodman brothers were just consummate musicians. And Buddy Collette has always been a very serious and dedicated player. These are some of his earliest recordings and he comes on just as dedicated early on as he is today.

AAJ: You identified these people during fifty different interviews with record label heads, musicians, and relatives of deceased musicians such as Herb Caro. I believe you spoke to his widow...

CN:..and his son...

AAJ: ...and his son. It's just a great detective story.

CN: Many of these people who were interviewed were interviewed multiple times because, since this lasted five years, two years later you'd think of something that maybe Mrs. Caro could clarify, and you'd go back to her. Many times when I'd bring things up to Bob he would say, "Gee I can't call him again, he's getting really bugged." I said, "Well wait a couple of weeks and call him." Finally, at one point, it was on a date that Buddy Collette plays on where I wanted him to identify the trumpet players, there were two trumpet players, as to who was soloing on what track. And Bob said, "Oh, I can't call him again he'll go nuts. Why don't you call him?"

So I wound up playing the tunes over the telephone to him and he was giving me a running commentary on the players as the music was playing.

Just an amazing amount of digging and stuff went into this.

AAJ: There's a very readable translation of all this information you've uncovered in the booklet essay by Bob Sunenblick.

CN: Right, he's the digger. He's the groundhog who rooted all this information out. I was there as a very willing and eager helper. He's just amazing on how he goes after this detail and wanting to get facts and stories that nobody else has ever disclosed, that's just a driving force with him.

AAJ: Let's talk a little about the music. The first session--"Texas Hop," "Baby, Take A Chance With Me," "Lonesome Woman Blues" and "Swinging An Echo"--sounds like Mingus is trying to write a hit. "Texas Hop" is kind of a jump number, and there's a little bit in the liner notes here about collective improvisation being a very important part of it, as well as the riff from "Stuffy" showing up as a background figure. Two tenors harmonizing with a trumpet gives this a very distinctive sound.

CN: Oh yeah, yeah. It's an unusual band. And "Swinging An Echo" is, for 1945, an interesting tune.

AAJ: And on "Baby, Take A Chance With Me," it seems like Mingus bet the farm hoping for a big hit.

CN: We've tried to figure out why this sequence of re-recordings of that (happened). I mean he did it three times in an 18 months period. Maybe it just sold. Maybe that's why he got a second date. I don't know. It's hard to tell.

AAJ: Then on "Lonesome Woman Blues" Brother Woodman plays tenor saxophone; apparently one of his main influences was Chu Berry. Mingus's bass is prominent in the arrangement, which was influenced by Duke Ellington--as Jimmy Blanton was put in the forefront of some of his arrangements from 1940. Mingus was really sophisticated for this time and you'll notice on "Lonesome Woman Blues" that he writes arranged background figures for each chorus.

CN: You'll also hear Mingus's sharp articulation on his pizzicato notes. He has a very unique sound the way he strikes the note.



CONTINUE...


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