By Fred Jung

I have always been quite puzzled as to why a musician that has worked alongside Eric Dolphy, Freddie Hubbard, Andrew Hill, Bobby Hutcherson, Joe Henderson, Sam Rivers, Wayne Shorter, Max Roach, Sonny Rollins, Tommy Flanagan, Charles Mingus, and Chick Corea would only have a handful of recordings available as a leader. So when I got the opportunity to speak to Joe Chambers about his new Blue Note record, "Mirrors," I asked him. And I wasn't disappointed, because if Chambers is anything, he's honest. The following is our conversation together in its entirety. Chambers speaking the truth, in his own words.

FJ: When did you start playing?

JC: I have been playing since I was little. I started when I was about six, seven years old and played in the schools, played in the school bands, and little rock and roll bands, and rhythm and blues bands, just regular stuff.

FJ: What drew you to play the drums?

JC: I think the instrument picks you. You've got instincts. Drumming is instincts. I used to beat around on pots when I was little. That was it.

FJ: You dabble around at the piano.

JC: I'm glad you asked me that because I want to clarify that. I don't play piano, well, I play a little piano. I have always wanted to get that. I play, I have a little piano, and I have a little technique, but it's really, like, arranger's piano. I want to get that straight. I don't really consider myself, I have a little piano technique, but as far as, like, going out and saying, "I'm a piano player." No. Let me put it that way. It's good to clear that kind of thing up. I'm not a pianist like a piano player. I know a little bit.

FJ: Let's touch on your work with Bobby Hutcherson.

JC: I met Bobby when I was in D.C. I was living in D.C. in '63 and I used to work there. I was living and studying down there. Everybody used to come through, I met him when he came through with Jackie McLean. I met a lot of cats, matter of fact, when I was in D.C. When I went to New York, I had already met these people. We just seemed to gravitate towards each other. I met Eric Dolphy. He came to D.C. and worked three weeks with the group we had, so when I got to New York, Eric was my first professional job that I had and Bobby was in that. We did a couple concerts. It was pretty interesting, so then I had met Freddie Hubbard. Freddie had started his own group in '64. He left Art Blakey and he called me. It was me, who was in that? It was me, Ronnie Matthews (piano), James Spaulding (saxophone), Eddie Khan (bass). I had met all these people, Art, Freddie, and Miles and his groups, anybody who came to D.C. Then I got with Freddie and did the date, and I started to get these calls from Blue Note to appear on these sessions. That's what it was. I started making these sessions and we all started gravitating towards each other, the people around at that time, Joe Henderson, McCoy, Bobby, all those people that were doing those recordings. That was how that thing went down.

FJ: What were those times like?

JC: The times was the '60s. Those were the turbulent '60s and we were all in that. Everything was going on, civil rights, Vietnam, drugs, peace, and all that type of shit. We were in the mist of that.

FJ: You have recorded with a laundry list of people, yet your discography is comparatively very small, why is that?

JC: Well, nobody asked me. The opportunity, the thing is, Fred, I had an opportunity to record as a leader, back then with Blue Note. They asked me, they, I mean, Alfred Lion. They approached me, but I was too spaced out to even realize, I was just glad to be doing what I was doing. I didn't, I had no business, obviously didn't have any business sense. I just let it go by. I didn't even follow it up and by the time I was ready to do that, that Blue Note scene was over. And so, you know, the situations with people when you are presented to an album as a leader, that is a very rare situation. It doesn't come too many people. I got an opportunity to do a lot of stuff with the Japanese. There's nothing you can say about that.

FJ: So how do you feel about the current climate in jazz?

JC: The jazz scene today is, probably, in one respect, it's healthy, and another, first of all, and then in another respect, it's the same as it's always been, in that, jazz is viewed as a, first of all, OK, you might want to edit some of this. Some of this you may not want to print.

FJ: I never edit any interviews.

JC: OK. The only decent thing that's come out of this country is jazz, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really like this country. Let me tell you the truth, Fred, I despise this country, more and more and more. Jazz is the only decent thing that's coming out. It's always been, now we're talking about now and forever, it's always been suppressed, oppressed. They've always like bloodsuckers, they've always bled it, and they've always taken the most innovative people and crushed them, and they've always sucked out the best parts of it, diluted it, which they're doing right now with this "smooth jazz" shit that they're putting out, that "smooth jazz", which is all a conspiracy, just to get rid of black jazz musicians. That's my opinion on it. And they've always done that, always. That's what this country is all about. It's nothing new. Jazz has always been suppressed, always, the real jazz has always been. Some people make it through and that's it. That's the nature of the scene. There are good players around, but they take a few people, I like Wynton Marsalis, he's good. He's a great player. He's a good player. They've made him a spokesman and all of that, which he is not, but he's good in what he's done. He's done a lot of good. He's brought an element of younger people to jazz. He's good in that respect, but it still a struggle. Jazz is a struggle. It's about struggle. That's what it is, is a struggle. In this society, it's a struggle.

FJ: Jazz has its roots in the African-American culture.

JC: Right, that's why it's suppressed. It's nothing new. It's nothing new. Matter of fact, it's getting redundant. This place, it's not made, it wasn't created for you. It wasn't created for black folks. It was not set up for black folks. I'll give you an example. The musicians' union (American Federation of Musicians), a very strong union in this country, was never set up for black musicians, never. We are just now, beginning, let me say this, the local American musicians' union (AFM), whatever city, they're all connected, they have great benefits. Absolutely, fantastic benefits, like, health, pension, etc., if you play in the symphony, if you play in the pit orchestras, if you do hotels, if you do jingles, all the so called legit stuff, which is white, it is great. The benefits are absolutely fantastic. It has never done anything for jazz musicians, never any pension, anything. Jazz musicians have always been out there on our own. These clubs and stuff that you work for, there's nothing taken out. You have to do it yourself. They have just now instituted a pension plan, in the union, for jazz musicians, just now, making it known to jazz musicians to buy into their own pension. And the reason why is because it wasn't set up for you. This country wasn't set up for us. It's that simple. They going to, take music or whatever field, and they're going to push a Chet Baker, whomever, this is what this "smooth jazz" is for, so they can push Kenny G, and this one, and that one. Because they have to see they're own. Everybody wants to see their own. They want to be identified with their own and jazz is such a strong element and we have so dominated it that they had to create something. They've always done that. They've always done that. The Chet Baker versus Miles, back in the day, that's the same thing. They've always done that. It's nothing new.

FJ: In your opinion, can anything be done?

JC: You want to talk about what to do. The predicament of African-American musicians is no different than the predicament of African-American people, total, in this country, throughout. We are a part of it. We're part of it. As a matter of fact, we must suffer more because we are between a rock and a hard place, because we've gotten away from our own folks. The music is not even supported by black folks, and yet, we have to go through the system to excel, so we're like, the jazz musicians, are between a rock and a hard place. The overall political condition is this. It gets to this. It's the same thing. You're talking about results, you're talking about a mass political answer to that. I say, black people have to get their own thing. They have to really pull out of this place, I mean, really pull out. You can be here and not be here. The Muslims have had the answer all along. They have had the answer. You've got to do your own thing. You've got to create your own situation. That is it. That is what you have to do and you have to do it from a position of strength. That's the only way, otherwise, it will be forever and ever, slavery.

FJ: Is going overseas better?

JC: Well, of course. You can work over there. You can get work over there because they don't, the folks in Europe and places, they're not living with you. They don't have to live with 30 million black folks, so the social and political mind set is all together different. They can look at the stuff objectively because they're not living next to you, so they don't have to deal with that. Now here, people are here and we're living together so they have to. There has to be that kind of exploitation. That's one of the main reasons why you can go over there, go over to Europe and a places and do well in Japan. They're looking at it objectively. They see what it is, but then they don't have to live with you.

FJ: With that in mind, what does this country need to do to preserve the heritage of jazz music?

JC: Well, first of all, the music, jazz music, they day that music is the international language. I say jazz is the international music. It is international music because it is truly the most democratic expression because it offers freedom of expression for every individual, every individual soul. That's why it's so attractive to the rest of the world, especially, in places that are suppressed. They really like to get this. They see this, people expressing themselves as individuals, and it's really to be connected as a world music. It's a world music, and it's a continuum. And I'll tell you, Fred, what I mean by that. This is really important. One time, I was in Italy. It was a big music thing, a festival that they had. They had all kinds of jazz people. They had European jazz. They had Italian classical people and an Italian jazz musician told me, he said, "Well, I was trying to show something to this Italian guy and he said that Italian music was greater because jazz music was only about a hundred years old and Italian music goes back two thousand years." I said, "Wow," when he told me that. The point and fact is that, and this has to be done and made clear in academic circles, it is not just an American experience. This is an African continuum. This is an African continuum. This is a continuation of African culture that has moved into the 20th and on to the 21st century with the blend. Jazz is a blend of cultures. It's African. It's European. The essence of it is the continuation of African culture. That point must be made clear. This is not just a three and four hundred years old. It is a continuation of African culture. It should be referred to as an African music. It's an extension of African culture. Jazz began as soon as African people hit these shores. That's when jazz, the musical expression began, from that point on, 1600 in North America or whatever and you've got to investigate the Caribbean cultures too. All of this goes into the pot that makes jazz. You go through work songs. You go through spirituals. You go through gospel, up into ragtime and on and on. All of those elements should be viewed as contributing to what jazz is. It moves on up, but it is a continuation of African culture. It's a continuation of the African musical culture, improvisation. That's the way it has to be viewed.

FJ: Would you say that's your goal?

JC: At this point, I've got a lot of goals, but at this point in time is, my goal is to get into a position so that I can relax, so I can go somewhere and spend time on a remote island somewhere and just chill for these remaining years. It's enough of a goal just to do that. It's enough just to do that the way that it's set up. I look at where I am age-wise and there's not that much time left. I have done a lot and there's lots more you can do, but the way things are, everything is set in such a way that the best you can do is hope that you have pretty good health, keep your health good, and just chill. Try to keep the anxiety and shit off of you.

FJ: What helps you calm that anxiety?

JC: It's nothing really. I like to watch, I like sports. I watch games. I like to go to the islands. I like the Caribbean, Aruba in particular, because it is out of the way of the hurricane track. I like going down there. But you need a certain amount of money to do that, so you need to make money. You've got to make money and it's difficult to make money in jazz. There's a joke, "You heard about the Polish jazz musician? He got in it for the money." People make money, but as you know, Fred, it's hard to make money. We're comparing it to the rest of the music industry. And it's all set up that way. It's set that way. It's marketed that way. That's why I do not like this country. I do not like it. I don't like the people, I'm speaking collectively. I don't like the way they think. I know the way they think, most of them, in the various areas, I know exactly the way they think. I know how the black folks think. They're all programmed. And I do not like it. I do not like this country.

FJ: So are you going to watch the Super Bowl this Sunday?

JC: I'll turn the game on as soon as the kickoff, but look at that. Look at this. I played ball. I'm fifty-seven this year. I played ball back in school, high school. I've watched the NFL since the days of their infancy. I watch them when they were just getting on TV. Madison Avenue and the advertisers have ruined the game. They ruin everything. Take a look at the game, there's no game. There's just ads. If you watch any sporting event, look at it. It's all ads. Let me tell you, Fred, I used to go to the games, I used to go the football games, pro games, when I first came to New York in the '60s. I used to go out to Yankee Stadium. I went to a game over the Thanksgiving holiday. I was down in Atlanta, and let me tell you, it was sad. It was poor theater. The players actually stopped and stand around while the commercials play, and they play them on the big screen in the stadium. This is for TV and they play them on the big screen in the stadium. The players, they actually are standing around waiting for the commercials to end. And it's a lot of commercials. It was the saddest theater that I've ever seen. You don't stop play. You continue play in a sporting event. These players would stand around and these commercials are coming all the time. It is sad. I like football, but the advertisers have taken over. They're running everything. That's the saddest shit. I watch it because I like the game, the plays, the execution, but still, the advertisers are running it. They're running everything. And that's America.

FJ: So this country was founded upon repression?

JC: Absolutely.

FJ: Does that repression still exist today?

JC: Absolutely. Absolutely. This country is, and you can see, these people are, you just look at current events, people don't look at current events, these people are murderers. Clinton is a murderer. They all have been murderers. This country started the Gulf War, man, they started that war, and they're bombing those people over there right now. They're bombing folks over there in Africa. They set that whole thing up. These are murderers. They bombed their own embassy. I maintain they bombed their own embassy in the summer and then bombed those folks over there in Africa, in the Sudan and Afghan. This place, you're talking about weapons of mass destruction, all the weapons of mass destruction are right here. They're here. They have all the weapons of mass destruction. These people are murderers. They're criminals. This country, basically, this country is illegal. It's illegal. It's an illegal country. It all feeds off each other. Whoever controls the media, they control the media, the mass means of communication, then they can put out whatever they want to put out. They can make or break anything they want to. Just look at the TV, just look at the way they set these things up. I do not like it. I've seen it and I don't like it. What can I do about it? I do what I can do to try to get out from it. The people, they're all programmed. The black folks are all programmed. Black women are just as programmed and I know what they're going to say as soon as they open their mouths. This is a very sad situation as far as I am concerned, but I deal with it. I don't want to paint a pessimistic picture, but I don't like this place. I'm here because I'm here. I can deal better in Paris. But, mind you, I'm not going to go live in Paris. I do better when I go to Japan. I'm dying to go to Japan. I don't want to live over there. It's not my culture. It's better that I go over there, work, and leave.

FJ: In your opinion, will the situation get better?

JC: In this country? No. For what I'm talking about, there's no getting better. The only thing that you can do is try to blend in. Anybody, who is of color, you can be successful if you play the game, but you have to know how to play the game. You have to know how to move with these folks. You've got to give them a nice comfort zone, then you can do well, if you have that type of mind set. Anything other than that, you're out. If you don't play their game, you're out of the picture.

FJ: Go along to get along.

JC: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just look at. Look a it all the way down the line. Anybody, in any field, if they ain't grinnin' and tommin', forget it.

FJ: Joel Dorn runs a label called 32 Jazz that is re-releasing your vintage Muse album, "The Almoravid."

JC: Right, Joel Dorn, the old Muse stuff. Oh, Lord, I got to get this motherfuckin' dude. I've got to call him. He put that shit out. Is that stuff out, Fred?

FJ: No, it's due out sometime in February, Joe.

JC: Oh, shit, let me call him and tell him to hold that shit off. I'm going to tell him to hold that stuff off.

FJ: How about your new Blue Note recording "Mirrors" with Vincent Herring, saxophones, Eddie Henderson, trumpet, Ira Coleman, bass, and Mulgrew Miller, piano?

JC: They played very good. They played well. They played great. Mulgrew, he's, probably for me, in my opinion, he's one of the leading of the new wave of piano players on the scene today. He's got to be one of the top. And all of those guys, they've got a lot of experience, Eddie, they played top notch.

FJ: Tour plans?

JC: Working on it. I've got to, first gig is February 17th in Philly. Subsequently, I'm working on some things, working on some stuff in Canada, maybe, you're from California, maybe California. I'm working on it right now.

FJ: And the future?

JC: I've got another one to do. I'm trying to formulate some ideas.

FJ: So you expect to go into the studio this year?

JC: Yes. I'm going to try to do something. I've got a couple of ideas, drums around the world, is a concept that I'm thinking about.

FJ: And your legacy?

JC: If it is a legacy than it will be something that people, other musicians will draw upon, be drawing upon for inspiration, for knowledge, etc., if in fact it is a legacy, a true legacy, it will be that. That's all anybody can hope for. I like theater and there can be a lot of theater in music. There are people in the so called big band era, it was more show. They had complete shows. The small band era took away from that. But they've introduced a lot of other things. I would like people to think that they have been on a little journey, like they went to a good theater show, being presented with a story, of course we don't have plot and drama and all this, but I would like people to think that they've been on a little trip with me, a little sound journey.