By Allen Huotari

A characteristic that will consistently distinguish, if not define, a championship sports team is when it’s members exhibit a selfless motivation to simply getting the job done. Often, that selfless play is low profile and intangible but is nonetheless essential to a winning cause. In hockey, it could be a defenseman who through sheer, dogged persistence prevents the opposition from getting a clean shot at goal. In basketball, it could be a power forward, grabbing rebounds and passing the ball to the high scoring (and highly paid) point guard. Whatever the sport, the common denominators are sacrifice, devotion, and an innate understanding of your teammates strengths.

Although music is clearly not a competitive environment (at least, not on the same terms), it is also filled with individuals whose contributions, while not flashy, are unquestionably proficient and thus indispensable to the bands they are members of.

Fred Chalenor (bassist) is one of those musicians. Although one could count the number of recordings Mr. Chalenor has appeared on using one’s fingers and toes, and have toes left over (refer to the selected discography below), his tasteful bass work has augmented and enhanced the 1990’s ensembles of composers Wayne Horvitz (Pigpen, Zony Mash) and Elliott Sharp (Boodlers). Displaying remarkable facility, Mr. Chalenor seemingly revels in the supportive role and his contributions, whether subdued or manic, are always appropriate to the music.

Falling in the interstices of the aforementioned, Mr. Chalenor co-founded the innovative, imaginative, and idiosyncratic trio Caveman Shoestore with drummer Henry Franzoni and keyboardist/vocalist Elaine diFalco in 1991. Playing music as odd and unusual as it’s namesake, Caveman Shoestore made two remarkable recordings and was one of only two American bands invited to appear at the 1994 MIMI Festival in France (a very high profile venue for complex, difficult, and otherwise impossible to pigeonhole jazz and rock bands) the other being Ornette Coleman’s New Quartet.

Perhaps it was a seeming inevitability then, that Caveman Shoestore found themselves collaborating with prog-rock and jazz living legend, bassist/composer Hugh Hopper (Soft Machine, Isotope, Stomu Yamashta, Carla Bley, and numerous others), for their third recording, CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE (1995, Tim/Kerr). As could be imagined from the title, the disc is basically the quartet, Caveman Shoestore and Hugh Hopper, playing scores composed by Mr. Hopper. The liner notes from Mr. Hopper recount an initial correspondence with Mr. Chalenor: “I sent him all the tunes nobody else had been able to play (all of the had been written on the computer). To my stunned amazement, he and the Cavemen sent back demos of them played perfectly, in real time. Hmmm, these guys are good…” The disc is a tour de force of quirky, indescribable, and catchy tunes highlighted by Ms. DiFalco’s gorgeous voice and wonderful work on accordion and Fender Rhodes, Mr. Franzoni’s chunky drumming, and the dual (duel? No, not really) basses of Messrs. Hopper and Chalenor (who is described as “virtuosic” by Mr. Hopper).

Subsequently, Mr. Chalenor, Ms. DiFalco, and Mr. Hopper have continued the collaboration as Hughscore with the cds HIGHSPOTPARADOX (1997, Tim/Kerr) and the recently released DELTA FLORA (1999, Cuneiform). The recordings are an intriguing study of band mutation and collective evolution as these three uncommonly gifted musicians, who are astoundingly sympathetic to one another’s abilities and open to each others creative input, continue to steer one another onto new avenues of artistic expression.

Of DELTA FLORA, AAJ modern jazz editor Glenn Astarita writes: “DELTA FLORA succeeds in many areas yet it’s not about dueling bass players who engage in lengthy chops fests nor is it a loosely based jam session. The beauty here is about substance and strong compositional development. Many of these pieces engage various genres yet the overall tone and demeanor of this project affirms beyond a doubt that these musicians were focused and determined to entertain. Hughscore’s ability to compound disparate yet familiar musical elements or genres into a cohesive and ultimately affable setting makes it all seem so natural and effortless! Highly Recommended...”

AAJ was graced when Fred Chalenor agreed to participate in an interview to correspond with the release of DELTA FLORA. The interview was conducted via e-mail in June 1999.

Thanks to: Glenn Astarita for suggesting this project, Joyce Feigenbaum at Cuneiform for facilitating the interview, Fred Hodshon for detailed discussions about Mr. Chalenor’s approaches to music, and Mark Huotari for suggestions with questions (thanks bro).

Special thanks to Fred Chalenor for squeezing in time to spend with All About Jazz.

ALL ABOUT JAZZ: Could you please provide some early biographical info? (birthplace, childhood, earliest musical recollections)

FRED CHALENOR: I was born in Seattle, Dec. 29, 1955. My earliest musical memories are pretty clear. I remember my parents buying a copy of “Mack the Knife” sung by Bobby Darren. I listened to that a lot. We also had a neighbor who was a DJ for a local radio station, KOMO. This guy would leave us stacks of 45's by our front door. I would find the pile and listen to them. The next important event for me was getting my first transistor radio. My first link to rock and roll and Motown. Very important!!

AAJ: When did you decide to make music a profession?

FC: I knew when I was 14 that I wanted to be a musician. It sure looked to be a lot more fun than just about anything else.

AAJ: When did you begin to play the bass? Why, what, or who inspired you to pick up the bass?

FC: In the mid sixties I used to watch the Monkees TV show and this other show that always had Paul Revere and the Raiders on as guests. The guy who played bass in the Raiders had a great looking Vox bass. I was sold on the idea right there. I made my own cardboard Vox (teardrop style) bass and cardboard box amp and would dance around in my room with this stuff. That's the real beginning for me. Later in jr. high school and high school I joined stage bands, heard Ravi Shankar, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Miles Davis and Weather Report and that changed everything.

AAJ: As a follow up, many factors can and do contribute to inspiring a musician in his or her work: the music of others, visual stimuli (literature, cinema, sculpture, painting, nature), working with interesting peers, maybe even food. Is there any one catalytic element that currently seems to provide you with the most inspiration ? If so, what?

FC: Yes, I agree. The music of others: Paul Bley. On his record OPEN TO LOVE, his use of space is just beautiful. I love the way he played those Annette Peacock and Carla Bley tunes. The very first Weather Report record was also important to me for space and obscuring the lines between improvisation and composition. LIZARD by King Crimson. I never really heard a rock band sound like that! I don't think it was very popular, even with their fans but I thought they sounded good with Keith Tippett and a bunch of brass. At the time, I thought it was almost jazz.

For pop music I really liked Todd Rundgren, Zappa, Gentle Giant, Little Feat and Motown. I also really got into Stravinsky. I think at one point in my life when I was about 19 I checked out as much Stravinsky from the library as could. The records and the scores. This discovery led me to exploring 20th century composers. I loved it all.

Mentors and peers? I did have a couple. There is a guy in Portland, Oregon named Rick Adams who was pivotal in my musical development. He was the guy who suggested we read along with Stravinsky scores. He also helped me get my first professional bass-playing gig, playing in the pit band in a musical. We met in a stage band at Portland Community College. He was the guitar player. Now he is an amazing photographer. Another extremely important person was, and is still to this day, Neil Minturn. We met around 1976 and played briefly with the guy I just mentioned, Rick Adams. At the time, Neil played the Fender Rhodes and wrote great tunes (kind of Paul Bley-ish). He was the guy who had the great record collection and if I am not mistaken, introduced me to Paul Bley and a lot of the early to mid 70's ECM music. In early 1979 Neil, Henry Franzoni and I put together the first edition of Face Ditch. Neil was finishing up at Reed College and at the same time playing in our combo cranking out wonderful tunes. To this day I still play his music. Right now Neil is teaching just about everything at the University of Missouri music department. He helped me a lot with writing. He would come to rehearsals with five great new pieces of music and I would have one underdeveloped piece lacking focus. We would play through all the music and talk about it. More than talk about actually, he would get out the pencil and music paper and help me turn my stuff into music.

AAJ: How would you describe your musical education? (i.e., does it include formal training? Completely informal? Both ?)

FC: My musical education? Never-ending. In 1986 I went back to college (Marylhurst in Marylhurst, Oregon) to study composition and bass with Glen Moore from the group Oregon. I also studied with jazz guitarist John Stowell. I stayed at Marylhurst until about 1989 when the Tone Dogs started to tour a lot.

With bass guitar I took lessons here and there but I generally tried to always play with really good musicians so I would have to keep working hard. My first year of high school was all about music. Sammamish High in Bellevue had a great music department at the time. I spent all year with a bass in my hands. Nothing else mattered. I even used to play in art classes and English classes. There were no girls, no cars...nothing.

AAJ: As a follow up, the traditional musical education process, whether formal or informal, has primarily focussed on the teaching of instrumental technique and compositional theory. Increasingly, the strategy and tactics of improvisation are taught. But extrapolating, do you feel that teaching methodologies for enhancing “imagination” or “innovation” exist? If so, do you think these can actually be learned? If so, do you have any practices that you employ to achieve these (from either a teaching or learning aspect or both)?

FC: That is a big series of questions. I feel if you have the hunger for any kind of music, you will find the music that fits you. These days there are almost too many options. Jazz is very well documented. There are lots of transcriptions, cds, videos of just about everybody in jazz. I just found out Fred Frith will be teaching at Mills College in California. Now a person who wanted to get into that world could go on down to Mills and sign up. Again, I feel that if one has the hunger for music it will find you. Having said that I do feel there is no substitute for studying your theory, putting in some serious time analyzing the classics. Really getting a feel for harmony, counterpoint etc. If anybody out there is looking for a place for that stuff, I say get on down to U of Missouri and look for Neil Minturn now.

AAJ: You’ve worked with drummer Henry Franzoni in a number of different bands since 1976 (Face Ditch, Concentration City, Tone Dogs, Caveman Shoestore, Boodlers) on an on again/off again basis (presumably, temporarily (?) off since your relocation back to Seattle in 1996). Although lengthy musical partnerships are not without precedent, they are nevertheless in the deep minority. How did you two approach the inevitable task of keeping the collaborative process fresh and stimulating?

FC: Man, you have done your homework. All the ensembles you mentioned were very different. Henry and I had a chemistry that really worked for a long time. We liked all kinds of music so it didn’t really matter if it was Earl Brown, Carla Bley, Soft Machine, improv with Elliott Sharp or Amy Denio's music. It was all just music. I must say though, none of those bands lasted that long. It looks like a long partnership in theory.

AAJ: On his webpage, Mr. Franzoni shares some thoughts about what he feels were the redeeming aspects of the band Caveman Shoestore. What do you feel made Caveman Shoestore unique or innovative?

FC: I have not seen Henry's webpage. I am afraid to read that stuff. But one thing I can say about the first two Caveman Shoestore cds is that they were all about polyrhythms. Really crazy ones. Caveman Shoestore for me was: "how can we take 5 against 7 and make it some kind of sick pop tune?" (we used 5 against 7 on the first cd on a tune called "Lost Horizon"). The second cd had more sick polyrhythms. “Ticket to Obscurity” and “All This Air”. That was some crazy shit. Those three tunes were the redeeming qualities for me. We also had tons of music. We could have easily made another cd.

AAJ: On a lighter note, what was the origin of the band name?

FC: A friend of ours in Seattle had a band called Caveman Shoestore. I think they only played one gig. We took the name.

AAJ: How did the Boodlers (with guitarist Elliott Sharp) project originate? Is this band still considered viable (even if dormant for the time being)?

FC: I think Elliott had a gig booked in Portland and called me up to see if I was interested. That was a crazy time. I was playing in Wayne Horvitz's The President as well as PigPen and recording with Caveman Shoestore. I would finish a Wayne cd, go back to Portland, start a Caveman cd, hit the road with Pigpen in Europe, then the whole thing would start over again. In between, Boodlers and other things would pop up. As to the future of the Boodlers? Who knows....

AAJ: Aside from Mr. Franzoni, the three musicians you have had a long term (i.e., at least 6 years) relationship with are keyboardist/accordionist/vocalist Elaine diFalco (Caveman Shoestore, Hughscore), saxophonist/vocalist Amy Denio (Tone Dogs), and Wayne Horvitz (Pigpen, Zony Mash). What have you learned from these musicians? What do you think they’ve learned from you?

FC: Elaine (who is now in a new Wayne Horvitz group), Amy, and Wayne are all composers. My job has been with those three to play their compositions. With Wayne everything was written down. In the case of some of the Pigpen music, sometimes we would have never seen a tune until we were in the studio recording with Wayne, it was my job to play the notes exactly as he had written them. Amy also had pretty firm control over her tunes. I do not remember Amy actually writing me out a lot of parts, but she always had a pretty clear idea about her music. With Elaine, as time goes by I get more written parts. Really, I learned how to hang out with these extremely driven composers. Living on the road with these folks can be a lot harder than the music side of things.

Also I learned how to play a lot of music with never enough rehearsal time. It's always fun. Wayne's music always (almost always) has a pretty melody, a rhythmic shift somewhere and an odd number of bars in the solo section to remember. After a while I noticed Some of Elaine's music had some of the components ("Baby Brother" on HIGHSPOTPARADOX has those qualities).

AAJ: As a follow up, most AAJ readers will know you from your work with Wayne Horvitz. What were the circumstances under which you met Mr. Horvitz?

FC: I met Wayne in an elevator in Montreal. We were playing the same festival. Later I met him again in Seattle because our kids went to the same school.

AAJ: Aside from the band instrumentation/personnel, how would you describe the differences or similarities between Pigpen and Zony Mash?

FC: I see Pigpen as Wayne's reaction to rock and roll in Seattle in the early 90's. Zony was a bit more like Wayne's music being played by the bar band he was never in. What I mean is that I don't think Wayne ever played a lot of 3-4 sets a night in cover bands when he was starting out. He skipped that period. If you asked Wayne you might get a very different answer. I can only guess.

AAJ: I saw Zony Mash play at McCabe’s Guitar Shop in Santa Monica CA on Mothers Day in 1998. In a word: incredible. In my opinion, it was much more satisfying than either recording. At the risk of dissing the cds (both of which I heartily recommend despite the earlier sentiment), do you feel the power of Zony Mash was ever truly captured on cd? Why or why not?

FC:I agree. But music is often better live. Again, even with Zony, some (not all) of the music was pretty new to us. Also you do a bunch of gigs in a row and by the time you get to L.A. it's going to really hit a magical place or maybe not. I know with Pigpen that we were always best in Europe because it was the only time we ever got to play a lot.

AAJ: Why does Zony Mash not only allow but actually encourage the taping of gigs by audience members?

FC: Toby, the guy who ended up booking and doing a lot of work for Zony set that all up to get the music out to people. Also, he found out that there was a tape of just about every Pigpen gig we ever played and he was a fan of that band. So I think it was done to spread the music around.

AAJ: Turning attention to the recordings with bassist Hugh Hopper, in the liner notes to the CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE recording, you admit that Mr. Hopper has been an influence on you as both a bassist and as a composer. Who else would you cite as your influences? How and why have they influenced you?

FC: Zappa, on UNCLE MEAT, ONE SIZE FITS ALL. Great compositions.

Bassists: Mick Karn and Percy Jones for their fretless wiggle.

Stick and bass: Tony Levin. He can hit one note and it feels great.

James Jamerson: He's the man, he wrote the book for me for funky bass lines.

Barre Phillips and Dave Holland. Those two guys were some of the first upright players that really pushed that instrument for my ears. I still go back and listen to them.

Temptations, Stevie Wonder…I love that music.

AAJ: As a follow up, could you please reiterate the circumstances which led to meeting Mr. Hopper and ultimately to this first recording?

FC: Caveman Shoestore wanted to cover “Sliding Dogs”, a tune Hugh had recorded with Isotope. I wrote to him and asked for the music. That is where it started. Maybe I kept asking for more, or maybe he sent a batch over. Whatever it was I was into the two bass idea. Tone Dogs was also a two bass group as was the FLUX period Caveman Shoestore. I also liked those old Soft Machine records where Hugh and Roy Babbington played electric and upright together.

AAJ: DELTA FLORA is your third recording with Mr. Hopper. The first, the aforementioned CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE, was basically Caveman Shoestore accompanied by Hugh Hopper playing the music of Hugh Hopper. Clearly with the “formation” of Hughscore, the second disc, HIGHSPOTPARADOX, and now DELTA FLORA, the relationship has become more collaborative. How would you summarize the evolution of Hughscore? (including how you feel this new recording is different from or superior to its predecessors)

FC: First of all each one had a different drummer. The new one, DELTA FLORA has a lot of spacey atmosphere to it thanks to Tucker. We really went for a thick warm feel on this one. Hughscore cds usually start with Hugh sending over a batch of tunes and over the course of a couple of months Elaine and I mess them up a bit. This time I could tell a couple of the tunes would set the mood for the cd. “Was a Friend” and “November” had this nice groove to them. Based on that, I wanted to turn these into something like a late 90's Soft Machine TWO track. You know, If they had got together again maybe it would be like this...

The cd ends with "Tokitae" which was written by Elaine but it reminds me of Soft Machine SIX. Slow Terry Riley like stuff. It's kind of funny, Elaine just heard Terry Riley for the first time a few days ago. I would have to say Hughscore has evolved into a fun relaxed collaborative project. Hugh is a blast to hang out with. You know, most musicians love to eat. so often some of the best times are eating breakfast together, dinners, barbecue, whatever. Elaine got the project up and running by taking our basic tracks to England. When she came back I heard mostly stories about eating fish.

HIGHSPOTPARADOX was produced by Wayne. We needed him. I think you can hear his production touch. I think he did a great job on that cd.

AAJ: As a brief encapsulation to the preceding, from the many bands and recording projects you’ve been associated with, which has been the most challenging, demanding, or intimidating? From which have you learned the most as a musician or composer? What is it you’ve learned from the above?

FC: CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE. I think that record is a great example of a great idea gone terribly wrong. That was some of that hardest music I ever played. Unfortunately towards the end, Henry, the drummer, decided he would overdub his spoken word diatribe onto the record. The whole record! That's when I learned its best to have a producer.

This was the first time we worked with Hugh so it was a little intimidating. We wanted to do a good job. I wanted to make a really crazy Hugh record with his cooking fuzz bass. It almost happened. Someday I will remix that monster.

AAJ: What musicians would you most like to work with that you've never worked with before?

FC: Squarepusher, Paul Bley, Steve Swallow, Karen Mantler, Michael Mantler, Robert Rich, Peter Erskine...

AAJ: What recordings by other musicians have you heard lately that have excited you?

FC: Glenn Gould IMAGES

AAJ: Under what circumstances do you feel you learn the most as a musician? i.e., rehearsing, playing live, listening to live tapes, recording, composing? Why?

FC: Often I get somewhere if I work through it slowly. It could be a Charlie Parker tune, an exercise, a fingering on the Stick. In other words, deliberate practicing over a three-day period usually gets me there.

AAJ: When it comes to a purely observational role, do you find that you learn more by listening to or watching musicians?

FC: Watching.

AAJ: As a follow up, do you actively and consciously incorporate insights (whether they be compositional methods or instrumental techniques) when performing, recording, or composing? Or is this accomplished intuitively and unconsciously? (I guess simply put, how often, if ever, do you think about what you’re doing?)

FC: Yes. Don't forget to breathe. For composing: Unplug the phone. Start early in the day.

AAJ: Furthermore, if conscious effort is applied, what musical lesson or insight have you most recently achieved that you plan to apply to your own work ?

FC: I have been working on the Chapman Stick now for about six months. I have learned that for me, the best way to approach this instrument is not what Emmett Chapman had in mind.

AAJ: What can a musician learn from being told by an audience member (post-performance) that he or she "played exceptionally well" or was "extremely moving" when he or she feels their performance was sub-standard?

FC: That’s tough. I do feel if a musician is truly aware of what is going on during a concert, you know the answer to the quality question. I like talking to people after shows however I do feel I am my own most critical judge. This is a good thing.

AAJ: On the lighter side, what's the funniest or most embarrassing thing that's happened to you while performing or recording?

FC: I heard that after Zony Mash left the house (we rented a house for a week to record the second Zony record in, out of town) that the garage was filled with beer bottles. I mean, you would not believe how much that band would drink. It’s too soon to tell the Zony road stories....

AAJ: Do you feel you are stronger as a composer or improviser? What areas of your own playing/composing do you feel need improvement?

FC: I always feel like everything needs work.

AAJ: for the hardcore musician contingent reading AAJ: what equipment do you use (bass, amps, etc.) ?

FC: CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE, HIGHSPOTPARADOX and DELTA FLORA, & Zony cds: Gibson Ripper. On some of DELTA FLORA: 67 Gibson EB-2. Amps: Ampeg flip top for recording, Sans amp di, SWR Big Ben speaker. Also a Yorkville 2x10 cab. Various Amp Heads

AAJ: Could you please describe the following ongoing projects?

a) Land (led by composer/keyboardist Jeff Greinke)

FC: Land is very cool. Kind of GET UP WITH IT Miles meets Eno.

b) Radio Chongching

FC: A loop band. We are starting a cd soon. We all use Jamman. It’s a trio of percussion (Greg Gilmore), trumpet (Leslie Dalaba, also in Land) and I play Stick. I replaced the old stick player. They never had real tunes, so I am bringing in structure to their texture.

c) Walkabouts

FC: I am new to the rock world. We have a seven-week European tour coming up. Elaine diFalco has been hired on as well as an extra keyboardist. Dark minor key rock.

AAJ: What are your ten Desert Island discs?

FC:

Paul Bley OPEN TO LOVE

Wendy & Lisa EROICA

Zappa ONE SIZE FITS ALL

Weather Report 1st lp

Old and New Dreams 1st one on Black Saint

Oregon WINTER LIGHT

Rain Tree Crow RAIN TREE CROW

Monk SOLO MONK

Robert Wyatt ROCK BOTTOM

Terry Riley RAINBOW IN CURVED AIR

AAJ: In conclusion, what else can be expected from Fred Chalenor in 1999-2000?

FC: New: Land, Radio Chongching cds. More Hughscore. Maybe even a gig or two from Hughscore. A lot of work in the garden.

selected FRED CHALENOR discography

with HUGHSCORE

DELTA FLORA (Cuneiform)

HIGHSPOTPARADOX (Tim/Kerr)

with CAVEMAN SHOESTORE

CAVEMAN HUGHSCORE (Tim/Kerr)

FLUX (Tim/Kerr)

MASTER CYLINDER (Tim/Kerr)

with ZONY MASH

BRAND SPANKIN’ NEW (Knitting Factory Works)

COLD SPELL (Knitting Factory Works)

with PIGPEN

DAYLIGHT (Tim/Kerr)

MISS ANN (Tim/Kerr)

V AS IN VICTIM (Avant)

LIVE IN POLAND (Cavity Search)

HALFRACK (Tim/Kerr)

with BOODLERS

COUNTER FIT (Tim/Kerr)

BOODLERS (Cavity Search)

with TONE DOGS

ANKETY LOW DAY (C/Z)

THE EARLY MIDDLE YEARS (Soleilmoon)