Larry Carlton
and Steve Lukather
April 2001

Part 1
Part 2

Steve Lukather
"Everything (Larry Carlton) hears he can play. Most guitar players think linearly, one note at a time. Larry thinks in five-part harmony."

No Substitutions
Favored Nations
2001

Reviewed By
Dave Hughes
Glenn Astarita

By Todd S. Jenkins

AAJ: That particular track, “It Was Only Yesterday,” not only shows the tight interplay between you all, but it also shows off the difference between your styles. Larry has this crystalline jazz tone out of the hollow-body, and you’ve got more of a forceful…

SL: (Laughs) I’ve got the Satanic noise that comes from my speakers?

AAJ: (Laughs) Well, I didn’t want to say that, but… you’ve got that edgier, forceful rock thing. The two separate solo sections on that song emphasize your differences, while the rest of the set shows just how well you two can blend in and listen to each other.

SL: That’s all about having the big ears. A lot of times, when you have another guitar player, it becomes this kind of cutting session. But Larry says more with one note than I say with a flurry of 64th notes. We both have our moments, you know. But he had a tendency to let me go first all the time: “You go, blow it out, shred and have your fun.” Then all of a sudden he brings it down, he starts playing two or three notes. That’s when you hear the audience kind of laughing, because of the look on my face. I’m like, “Okay, I suck.” The guy just cuts me with one chord.

LC: It’s pretty obvious on that tune that we’re coming from different schools, but both so musical.

AAJ: Steve, I noticed Larry was gracious enough to let you start “Room 335” (Carlton’s signature tune).

SL: That’s the whole thing! I mean, I wish it was filmed so you could see the look on everybody’s faces. At one point, and we actually left it on the record, I fouled it up. I went to the wrong place; I was supposed to go to the next section, but I went back to the intro again. You can hear a pause and the people laughing? That’s because of the look on my face: “Oops, I f**ked up!” And then we managed to salvage it. It was all in that spirit. I think when we go this time, we’ll try to do a DVD. Hopefully that will work out, I’m not sure.

AAJ: Any chance that you’ll do any American dates?

SL: Absolutely! They’re booking them now. The album comes out here March 20th. It comes out a little earlier in Japan because we’re going there first. We’ll be touring sporadically throughout the rest of this year and into next year. It’s not like this record is a radio record, like, “Oh, you’d better catch the wave,” or something. It’s one of those records that you just go out and play, and I think it will sell for many years. To guitar collectors and stuff…

AAJ: I played it for a couple of my metal-guitar-head friends and their jaws hit their laps.

SL: Really? Wow, that’s awesome! I’ve got to tell you something, the reaction is… obviously you hope for a really good reaction, but this has kind of gone beyond that. I’m not used to it. When I was in Toto we would get creamed by the press. They either loved us or hated us so vehemently it was unbelievable. But, out of the box, this is something that’s so real and so natural, and to get the reaction we’re getting is really a kick in my ass. I’m like, “Wow, people like this!” We got this great review from some guy, I won’t say who it was, who said, “I hate Toto, I hate Fourplay, but I love this record.” And I just cracked up. I said, “Well, man, you got some new ears off of this.”

AAJ: He’s now grown as a person.

SL: (Laughs) Yeah! It’s the old adage: if you hang around long enough, people will have to learn how to accept you.

AAJ: Now, about a decade ago, Toto ended up like a lot of acts, with a bigger audience in Japan than you had in America.

SL: Well, actually, around the world it’s been like that. The last time we went out was a couple of years ago, we did Europe and Japan, playing to 17,000 people a night. In America you can’t give the shit away. But that’s sort of come to an end. It was fun; we were high school buddies, you know? It’s not like we said we were breaking up and I’ll never play with them again. But it’s not something we’re planning on doing any time soon.

I’m really interested in doing other things musically. I don’t want to be playing “Rosanna” for the rest of my life, like some big fat guy in a lounge in Vegas. I mean, I have so much more to say musically. I’m still learning, I’m still studying. I’m playing with Larry, I’m scoring a new NBC TV show, so there’s a lot of new challenges for me, as opposed to being that guy that used to be in that band.

AAJ: So we can pretty much conclude it will be a while before we get a follow-up to Mindfields (Toto’s 1999 album)?

SL: Yeah, I wouldn’t look for that anytime soon. But hey, we had a great run. I’m not dissing the band at all. I’m really much more about learning and getting into some other areas.

AAJ: Are you going to do any more vocals anytime soon?

SL: Oh, yeah, man, I love to sing! I’m going to do a solo album probably toward the end of this year or beginning of the next year. So that’s still in there. I still like a good song. I write songs for other people. That’s the gift that keeps on giving. That’s all that horizontal money, where you walk out to the mailbox and say, “Well, will you look what came in the mail?” It’s wonderful.

AAJ: How much can you share about the TV project?

SL: It’s called “The First Years”, and it’s an NBC show on Monday nights at 9:00, starting in mid-March. I’m working with my friend John Pierce, the bass player. And that’s a really neat thing. It’s an hour-long comedy-drama. I’m really excited about that; we’re actually starting tomorrow. So that’s a whole new line, you know?

I feel like the second half of my life is just starting. I had a great time being a rock-n-roller. I experimented with all the excesses and lived through that and had a laugh. Now I’m grooving on where I am in life. I wouldn’t want to be twenty years old again.

AAJ: Well, it has been a long time since “Hold The Line” and “Kid Charlemagne”…

SL: I know, it seems like another lifetime ago. Who was that guy?! I don’t even look the same. Like I said, it was a great time. Also, I was doing all those sessions at the time, when the session scene was really happening. It doesn’t really even exist anymore. A lot of the guys out there are really hurting. Everybody’s making records at their house, and they don’t want to pay the money. Rhythm sections don’t play together. I think I was in the last wave, where I’d play with Steve Gadd one day and then I’d be playing with Jeff Porcaro, and with all these great musicians. Other guitar players! Now you never see two guitar players on a session. It’s unheard of.

Larry kind of created that era; that was what we all wanted to be. He was a solo artist by the time I started doing sessions. He used to invite me over to play poker with the guys and hang out. I was so green I had Spanish moss growing behind my ears. But they were so kind to me and they didn’t have to be. I wasn’t trying to get a job or anything. I just wanted to hang around greatness, hoping it might rub off.

AAJ: (Laughs) And some would say it worked!

SL: Yeah, it only took 25 years to have Larry ask me to play with him. I had to do some shedding!

AAJ: Better late than never.

SL: Like anything else, it’s worth the wait.

LC: Yeah, it was fun. And it will be fun again this year, too.

AAJ: I was pleasantly surprised at the selection of material you came up with for these live sets.

SL: You know, that was mostly out of Larry’s bag. I don’t have any songs on that record. That was out of convenience. I was familiar with the Larry Carlton songs that are on the record; we didn’t have to rehearse those.

LC: Luke had 3 or 4 tunes that he’s played with Bissonette before which he really enjoyed playing, “The Pump” being one of them. I’d never heard it before. We also did “Red House” while we were there, and Luke sang it. And I brought a couple of Crusader tunes, “Put It Where You Want It”. It was just things we knew each other would enjoy playing on.

SL: The Miles tune (“All Blues”) was kind of a throwback to the old days at the Baked Potato and Donte’s, in the 70s. That’s the kind of song I always wanted to play with Larry. And it’s also a great jam. You can go anywhere with it.

AAJ: I loved the way you started with a funky intro and very casually slinked your way into the song before anyone knew what was happening.

LC: In the 70s we used to play that at the Baked Potato, myself and Jeff Porcaro and Greg Mathiesen. That was a feel that Jeff enjoyed playing to that tune, instead of just playing it in a jazz 3/4. Luke had heard that for many years, and when he started playing there he always did it that way, also.

SL: It’s a very different arrangement than what Miles had. Even a different time signature. And I’m a big Jeff Beck fan, so I brought in that other thing.

AAJ: I’m not sure that “The Pump” is one of Jeff’s best-known tunes, but it’s a great one for trading lines.

SL: And once again, it was hard to pick a take because there were so many different readings of it. Sometimes Larry would be full and intense and I’d play soft, or vice versa. That’s why we made a point of mentioning on the record that I’m on the right side and Larry’s on the left. It’s not because anybody would confuse our styles. It’s because of the conversation. Anybody who doesn’t play guitar might go, “Okay, who’s playing what?” You can hear the interplay this way. And I really think you can hear the fun. Everyone was having such a good time. The audience is so much a part of the band. There were five or six hundred people per set, just jammed into the club. Japanese audiences are so appreciative of the musicians. Nobody stood up and said “Rock and roll!” like some drunk in an American audience.

AAJ: Larry, “Room 335” has always sounded to me like a Steely Dan song. Was that intentional, or was it just something floating around in your head?

LC: No, it was intentional. I had already recorded the tune “Peg” with Steely Dan. So those chord changes were familiar to me at the time, and I wrote a tune based off of those first three chords.

AAJ: I’m wondering if people are going to look at the disc, see a bunch of 14-minute tracks and think, “What in God’s name is this?”

LC: (Laughs) Yeah, I can’t think of anybody I’d want to listen to for 14 minutes!

AAJ: One of the things that almost killed instrumental guitar music a decade ago was that it seemed to become all about volume and notes per second, with very little tastefulness.

SL: Well, yeah, it definitely got a little pyrotechnical. Technique has always been fun; look at Django Reinhardt. He was the full shredder guy of his time. But he was playing, and he played the real thing. That whole thing started out great. I mean, you can’t blame Eddie Van Halen for coming up with a new technique. But some people will get hold of a trick and just grind it into the ground. And look at somebody like Allan Holdsworth, who’s just absolutely brilliant. His musical facility on the instrument and what he’s actually playing is just so far advanced it’s like it’s alien. There are guys out there who play fast but still play. Look at Satriani and Vai. It’s not their fault that people took what they were doing because of their amazing facility… but they both still play music. It’s very intense music; they’re both very good stylists.

There’s a little shredder in every guitar player. But there’s a point where it’s like, “Does anybody ever play soft?” That’s the thing about Larry. What’s so great about Carlton is that he brings it down. And when you bring it down like that, especially after someone’s been playing loud, it’s so welcome. And he can build this wonderful musical solo. Like I said, every night was a lesson.

AAJ: Right. After the chops-fest is over with, it comes down to playing one note and putting so much into it.

SL: And if you could see the look on his face! The only thing missing on the disc is that you can’t see the looks on our faces. We were just having a blast. He’d look at me, just kind of wink at me and play one note, and the audience would crack up and go, “Yeah, Carlton rocks!”

LC: In my mind it’s always the song that comes first. Song, song, song.

AAJ: Larry, I especially like the way that you work with a relatively simple theme, like “High Steppin’”, which is such a basic thing but it works so beautifully. In the hands of somebody who didn’t quite feel the music like that, it might just turn into a noodling little thing. What’s your philosophy when you sit down to try and write something?

LC: It’s a little difficult to describe. Like most people who compose, I think, I write what I like. And I’m a melodic player, obviously. When I was a kid I responded mostly to melodic players, so as an adult, mature musician, the things that I play are melodic. So really, when I sit down to write a tune, it’s got to have some kind of melody and chord to it that tickles my heart, or I won’t finish that song. I’ll move on to something else.

AAJ: It’s been twelve years since the shooting in L.A., before you fled to the greener pastures of Nashville. Obviously you sound like you’re in top form and have been for a long while.

LC: Oh, yeah. There’s basically no residual effect for that. Especially anything that has to do with making music. So that’s cool.

AAJ: Is there anything else you want people to know about the new album?

SL: We were completely naked when we played it.

AAJ: Uh, that’s a little too much information, Steve…

LC: I think you know how we feel about it, so probably enough said by me... I think the main thing is you responded to the joy. You can tell that that’s two guys who are really having a good time, but they happen to be playing their butts off, too. So there’s an honesty to this record that I personally enjoy.

SL: We just hope that people enjoy the record as much as we enjoyed making it. And I have a feeling that Larry and I… there’s a studio album down the line for us. New original material that we would write together. I don’t know exactly when that would be because both of us are in, like, nine different projects at the same time.

AAJ: Well, try not to make it another 25 years, okay?

SL: No, no, no! Within just the next couple of years I’d love to sit down and do a studio album with Larry. That would kind of take this to the next level, you know? In the meantime, this album is coming out and we’ve been really knocked out by the reaction to it. And we’re really proud to be part of Steve Vai’s company.

LC: You know, my manager was talking to Vai a couple of days ago, and Steve said, “Now, are the guys thinking about material for Volume 2?” I think there’s high expectations for this particular CD and tour. And as long as the joy stays there that we’re experiencing right now, there’s no reason that we shouldn’t do it again some time.