By Wayne Zade

AAJ: Billy, you have been at the forefront of the advancement of jazz most of your playing career, which now spans four decades. Can you talk with me a bit about your travels to Japan as a jazz musician?

BH: Well, I first went to Japan, I think it was 1972, with Kimiko Kasai. She's a singer, a Japanese singer, and she had hired Sam Jones, Cedar Walton, and myself as a trio. She came and heard us in New York and wondered if we would make a tour with her, and we made the tour. And at that time I met an alto saxophone player there and quite a few different people. I made a couple of records there, just on that first time I went, some records with Kimiko. Sam Jones made a record there too. But it was nice, it was nice. I really enjoyed the country.

AAJ: Was it culture shock for you?

BH: Yes! Definitely. Yes. The first time. Organization is superior to most places. Everything is run very smoothly.

AAJ: Before you went, had you heard a lot about the Japan scene from other jazz musicians?

BH: Yes, I heard a little. But anything that you hear about Japan is nothing like what you see when you actually go over there and see it, you know, in a real situation. The food, the mentality. It really caught me by surprise. People cared a lot about other people--like the blind people: they have braille so they don't get lost in the city. Simple little things like that.

AAJ: Courtesies.

BH: Courtesies! Right, right.

AAJ: Other musicians have told me they've noticed this.

BH: Well, you know, I love my country and everything. The United States is a beautiful place, you know? But it's just--seeing how one people, the majority of Japanese people there, that's what, they don't have a problem by disagreeing so much. You see, they all learned out of the same book. It's not so much, this book and that book; they all have the same ideology. So they have a chance to be one.

AAJ: When you recorded in Japan, was this for a Japanese company?

BH: Yes, for a Japanese company. The Japanese have their own everything. They have their whiskey, their own record labels, their own cars. They're a very independent nation. And that's another thing too. You see how each country can really have its own products. And they ran things very smoothly.

AAJ: In Japan, did you play mostly with American musicians, or did you play more with Japanese musicians?

BH: Some Japanese musicians, yes. Besides the rhythm section, some Japanese, that first time. And then I went over again, other times, and played with different Japanese people. And I was there with Milt Jackson and Ray Brown, Teddy Edwards and Cedar Walton, and we played with other people there and made some records with other people there.

AAJ: Have you taught in Japan?

BH: Yes, in clinics, yes, I've had students in Japan. I did a couple of those there, and I've worked with Japanese students in the States, the Japanese contingent. A lot of kids come here too, you know. But in Japan, I did that too, several times.

AAJ: How did you find the Japanese students?

BH: Oh, very attentive. Very attentive. They have a great capacity to learn, and they always respect the teacher, the sensei, as they call the teacher. They always respect that.

AAJ: Did you have the impression that your students in Japan were familiar with your work, knew your background?

BH: Yes. Before you get there, they know everything. From school, they know all about your background, about what you are about, because this is part of their learning system. The people in Japan know more about the history of jazz and the musicians than the people in the United States do. The Japanese actually approach the music on a high level. It's always been on a high level. They provide the best hotels, the best concert halls, the best pianos. They see to it that your instruments are taken care of. If you're a guitar player and you break a string, there's somebody there with a string. That shows that they have a lot of respect for the music.

AAJ: Have you played more in clubs or concert halls in Japan?

BH: About the same. Earlier, like in the '70s, there were more dates in concert halls. They didn't have that many smaller clubs then. Then it got down to the point where you could go to play in a small town and you'd be in a smaller concert hall. They have some concert halls that are as big as this room here. You go all the way over there and you end up playing in this little bitty room, like somebody's front room. Then the next night you could be in a huge concert hall. So they have it all mixed up.

AAJ: Have your trips involved mostly trips to the larger cities of Japan or the smaller towns?

BH: Oh yeah, a lot of small towns. It always astounded me, and I always hold this thought in my mind, that whatever small town I went to, everybody knew Art Blakey. Art Blakey was one of the people that started the music there. I mean, he was the one who made a big, big impact on all of the people--people in the rice fields. I mean, everybody knew Art Blakey. That is the kind of spirit he brought to that country. That's when the Messengers were there. You know how you have the ticker tape, it goes around and shows the world the news, and you'd see it, you know, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Now that's class. He did a lot--and Duke Ellington, he went to Japan too. But Art Blakey, he took something else. He opened the door for a lot of the smaller groups.

AAJ: Do you have an idea of when Art Blakey started to go to Japan?

BH: Ohhhhh . . .

AAJ: In the '50s?

BH: In the '50s, yeah. I think so. Definitely in the '50s. Because I remember Bobby Timmons, Cedar and them, they were going over there in '59, '58, and the early '60s. There was a big movement towards Japan. And Art Blakey, he inspired it.

AAJ: I think Ray Brown went even earlier.

BH: He went earlier. They had a place, in fact I went to this one town with him, and they had a club called Ray Brown, and they named it after him. Young people, you know. And he went with Oscar Peterson. A lot of people got a chance to hear Ray Brown because of Oscar Peterson.

AAJ: This might have come out of Jazz at the Philharmonic?

BH: Yeah. Jazz at the Philharmonic. Right, right, right.

AAJ: Could you take a wild guess at the number of times you have gone to Japan?

BH: Uh, about . . . twenty . . . two. About 22 times.

AAJ: What was your most memorable trip?

BH: Huh. It's very hard to say that there was one. Each trip was unique. The first trip had a lot of impact because of the new sensations, being there and seeing how everything was. Every day was different. But then again, I went other times, and I went to a lot of places.

AAJ: Have you played in Europe as much as you've played in Japan?

BH: I might have played a little bit more in Europe than I have in Japan. I went to Europe first. I went there in '62. So I had ten years under my belt in Europe. And then, after I started to go to Japan, I was also going to Europe at the same time, you know what I mean? But I think I did more playing in Europe than I did in Japan. I'd go to Japan maybe once a year, sometimes twice, but it's always been great.

AAJ: A lot of jazz musicians, both African-American and Caucasian, talk about living and playing in Europe as a kind of liberating experience. There they had the opportunity not to have to deal with racism, as is so evident in American society. Do you have the sense that there is acceptance and there is community among the races more in Japan than in the States?

BH: Well . . .

AAJ: Is that too broad a question?

BH: Well, a little bit. But what you were speaking about first--kind of made more of a, I could answer you about. As far as having the two [Europe and Japan], which one is different. As far as Japan, they have nothing but Japanese people. See, in Europe they have Africans, they have Middle Eastern people, they have every kind, you know? But being encountered as a musician, and carrying that baggage with you, you get a different treatment, see, than the average person that would come. If somebody would come and they're not playing music, they would encounter certain people on another level. It's like they like what's in the package, but not so much the package. You see what I'm saying? Because you're going under a different guise there. Because you can tell sometimes that people don't know what you're doing there. And they don't know where you're from until you open your mouth. You could be from Ethiopia . . . and there are some people that for them it doesn't make any difference. And, you know, the jazz community is a different community. The French--they like jazz, they've been on jazz a long time. But then again, they have another relationship with Africa. That's different.

I had an experience one time when they were looking at passports and the police had come in. This was in a Senegalese restaurant and they asked for everybody's passport. And they were slapping people around, you know, I mean, they were really playing the gangster part. The majority was Senegalese people in there, you know, and they jammed them up. And I gave them my passport, and they gave it back to me and said, "Thank you, sir." See? So right there I understood how the French feel about the Africans and how they feel about Americans.

In a lot of those places, they don't have to contend with a lot of black people. So they can be as liberal or not as liberal as they want, because it has nothing to do with the economical situation of their country. Now Japan doesn't have that problem, because they don't have anything but Japanese people there. And you can't stay there too long, though. You stay in Japan a certain time, and then you've got to get out. But the Japanese have everything. I mean, they have everything. They have country and western, they can pick anything. Any type of clothes. They get the cream of the crop. But as far as the racial situation goes, the thing about that is that it helps to speak the language. A lot of people there get very . . . how would you say it, perturbed, if you don't speak the language. Because some of them, a lot of them, speak English. So they wonder, if I can speak English, you should be able to speak Japanese.

AAJ: There are lots of business relationships between the two countries.

BH: Definitely. Definitely. Cars, aw, man.

AAJ: Toyotas are built in Ohio now.

BH: I'm telling you! After all that, after the war, man, it's just like, how funny, nature and God have a certain kind of way of putting people in positions. And after all that, you know, with the atomic bomb and everything, they came out on top. Because they suffered--you know what I'm saying--the whole natural hook-up with that. They came out of that and became, you know, ruling the world. In economics. The Japanese are everywhere. And they have a thing of unity. Which, they don't travel by themselves. You see very few alone. When they come over, they'll be together. Of one accord. You cannot mess with unity. They do things in business--they give each other--they respect each other. If I go with some company, then the other company has hands off.

AAJ: No corporate raiding.

BH: No individual hustle. You do what you do, but if I go with this other company, that's their concern. It makes it much easier.

AAJ: Maybe we can end on this question. How would you say that the country or the culture of Japan has changed in the years since you began to go there as as musician?

BH: Yes. People are getting taller. People are, uh, more--the traditional ways of Japan are lacking because of the youth, because of the music that the youth is dealing with . . .

AAJ: Is that techno . . .

BH: All that technology has changed things. The Japanese were always a thinking people. But when I first went to Japan, they had just started working like 16 hours a day, see? So when people start working that much, and sometimes they don't go home, they sleep on the job, then they're going to jump ahead. Because you're right there, you work, you give your all. I don't care what kind of job it is. If you're a waitress, you give your all.

AAJ: I understand that this even gets down to the level of the schoolkids?

BH: Oh yeah.

AAJ: A student has to pass certain exams to go to the university.

BH: Right. Right. It's all about, with them, there is some part of their religion that they haven't lost. It's something that, regardless of what they like, or it's still that you have respect for your mamasan, papasan. Mamasan is very heavy in the Japanese culture. They revere their mothers. And the older people. They revere them. And younger people too. So as long as you have a society like that, they're going to succeed. They can't even stop themselves. As long as they take care of the older people and the younger people. You know what I mean? Ours has fallen off a bit because of that. We've got to keep our youth and everything--but they've got their youth where they--you know, they don't talk back to their mamas. Some of them might be getting a little out now than they used to be, but that was unheard of in the earlier days. But all that has something to do with the whole world now. The whole world is hooked up now. It used to be just individual countries. But now everybody likes rap. Everybody likes this or that--and all you have to do is show it to them. The United States always been in the lead of mimicry.

AAJ: You mean in terms of setting the tone for other countries?

BH: Setting the tone for everything for others to imitate. For image. Imagery. You know, "I want to be like this, I want to be like that." Why? They don't know why they want to be like that. They just want to be like that because everybody else is like that. They don't even study the nature of being like that.

AAJ: Do you think the Japanese appreciation of jazz is part of that larger desire to imitate?

BH: Well . . . yeah. But jazz is a different kind of situation than the rest of them. It's something that--jazz is one of the few things that you can go and listen to, I don't care where you're from, what you are, what background you come from--there's something there for you. And people in all other countries realize that. That's why it's more relevant over there than it is here. Because they understand where jazz comes from, why it is. What's the root of the situation. OK. The root of the situation is America. Right?

AAJ: The whole economic . . .

BH: The economic and social--the history. You've got to go back to the history. That's why it's so strong. You know, plantation we're talking about and all that. That's the root of jazz music.

So if music comes out of such a strong reason, well then, it's going to be catchy to anybody. You see three, four, five people play--and all of a sudden this unity thing happens.

AAJ: And people listening are tapping their feet . . .

BH: Yeah! They're being touched! By something that they don't--there's no antidote, there are no rules. How do you do this? Oh! Is there a way I could do this? Ah! Maybe. Maybe not.

The first thing is, jazz is one of the few things to let you know that there is a God and there is a creation. Because any time you see five people, or two people, playing together: "How do they do that?" OK, it's a science, but it's also that the inner thing is happening. Right! The "enter thing" is happening. I can enter you, if you sit there and be still for a minute, I can enter you, whoever's playing can enter you, your feelings, your emotions, without it being all from the outside. "Oh, he's got a red bandanna on." None of that. It's strictly from soul to spirit, spirit to soul. So, something that strong bears watching. Jazz has still not gotten to the point where it is totally, the most, the greatest thing is happening in music. It's still really down low on the totem pole because of the commercial value of anything.

AAJ: You mean the other kinds of popular music? Rap?

BH: Yeah. All that stuff. Look, jazz has always had, because of its origins, that's the only reason. It's the only reason it's like that. Where it came from. It's not accepted. In the first place, people said, "Oh, that's devil music." But you can reach back and see what's going on. So, the Japanese--they don't have to worry about it being devil music. Because that's not in their culture. They don't deal with that part of it. Only in America.

AAJ: And yet the Japanese can still respond to it?

BH: Yes. They can respond to it because it's a natural movement. When something is natural, a human being, if he doesn't like it, he'll like it. When he leaves a club, or anyplace--some people just really don't want to be touched. But the music can go all over that. It brings people together. It brings the races together. It brings religions together. If everybody gets in there and sees that and understands that, then it lets them know that they're all human beings and creatures of God. So that's heavy stuff to make you aware of that when everything else is trying to zap you apart.

AAJ: Computers . . .

BH: Aw, man . . . . Modern technology and all that, all that is good and everything, but wait a minute, you know, just be able to unite as a people, man, that's the whole thing. And let us play it.

AAJ: Maybe in listening to jazz, the Japanese want to balance the technological and spiritual?

BH: They're got that. They balance what they want. Can you imagine somebody having a country and saying, "OK, we know what we have. And let's give our people the best of everything. Give them an option. If they like country and western, give them country and western." Because the Japanese have gotten to the point where money is not their problem. OK, if money is not your problem, then can you do what you want to do. On any level you want to do it on. And still come out on top. The Japanese invest. They invest in business, they invest in their people. They come over and invest. They've surpassed us in a million ways because they don't mind sharing. They've got millionaires in Japan just like anywhere else. But if people are working 16 hours a day, you'd better give them a piece of the pie. Or you have a problem.

AAJ: It's a culture with a lot of stress.

BH: A lot of stress. It's stress, stress. But you have so many hours out of the day. How much free time do you have? So, in your free time, so-called free time, what do you do with it? We're given free time and we want to do the oddest stuff in the world, then come back to business. Our business sense is out to lunch. Theirs is sleep. But they've got problems. They're not free of social problems, because the human beings, man, they have jealousy, individual situations. Maybe they don't say this, but look at it as a human trait, that's all. It's how you deal with it.

AAJ: One final question, and this really will be the final question. Did you visit the museum at Hiroshima?

BH: I sure did. Played there. Twice. When I first went to Hiroshima, I didn't play. I went through the city. And I felt something very strange. And I asked one of the promoters, "Where are we at?" I felt this kind of pressing, and it was eerie, you know.

I went there and played with Tommy Flanagan, and we played on the same date that they had dropped the bomb, an anniversary of that. And it was just very quiet. I remember he played a ballad and the people just sat there when we finished. Silent. Some of the people were crying. I'll never forget that.