October 2001

London Calling
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By John Eyles

Although he lives in Hackney (as exciting and vibrant a part of London as you could hope to find), Derek Bailey [web site] plays relatively rarely in the capital these days. He is a world citizen, more likely to appear in Europe, Japan or New York than in Stoke Newington or Highgate. This year, he will have played maybe six gigs in London, a lot for him. Despite this, he casts a giant shadow over improvised music here, being treated with huge respect and affection by several generations of free improvisers. It is virtually impossible to imagine what this music would be like without the influence he has exerted over the past 35 years.

The day I interviewed him (23-Sept-2001), he had read my review of Company in Marseilles (Incus) in which I pondered the question “What makes Company Company?” He started off by offering his answer to the question.

DB: There’s not much I can clarify about what Company is. Playing music is not really susceptible to theory. It is partly what is possible. Since I gave up doing Company Weeks – which I did for seventeen years, which seems long enough for anything – I just take whatever opportunities there are to do Company. And the opportunities are never perfect, that’s for sure.
So, for instance, the Marseilles gig was some sort of celebration of this organisation’s 200th birthday, and they asked me to play solo; over a period of negotiation I turned it into a five-piece for two nights rather than a solo for one night, which I thought was more appropriate for what they are supposed to be about.
I have a Company in Los Angeles next month, for two nights – I might get three nights squeezed in. There will be ten people on that, and I don’t know any of them. They are all LA or San Francisco musicians. But that methodology where players are pitted against other unfamiliar players has been so widely adapted now that everybody plays with everybody. So it doesn’t work in the same way now. I don’t know any of these guys and they might not know each other (I’m sure some will know each other) but actually it doesn’t matter now; it’s not a problem for people to play with each other in the way it was 25 years ago. In fact it’s quite gratifying for me to see some of the people who really objected to this method of working now being quite so profligate in their use of it. So that’s nice but it doesn’t work the same way. The Company in New York earlier this year was for three nights (it would have been great to have had another night), but getting more than three nights now is difficult. No-one offers me a Company thing, I turn things into Company. This LA thing, they wanted me to play in duos or trios each night at the club and I talked them into this Company thing.

AAJ: Who is selecting the musicians for LA?

DB: A saxophone player, one of the musicians who was setting this stuff up. II don’t think it is any different from what it was, except that the method is now familiar so you can’t set up such internal shock situations. Like Will is very good to throw in because of his totally different relationship with the audience, but they are very hard to find now. Personally, I’ve found that the kind of thing that I like is going into somebody else’s area and not playing their music but doing what I do in their area.

AAJ: Looking at your discography, there are very few people who you have had regular recordings with. You are very diverse in who you record with. You are always seeking out new situations.

DB: I wouldn’t want to be ideological about it but I think of it as being the best way to approach this kind of playing. I don’t think it works in other music, other kinds of playing. But for freely improvised music that approach seems to suit it. And now everybody does it anyway. Initially, there isn’t any way of getting into this music other than playing with people you don’t know, playing with anybody. So it was always a basic thing about this music. But for some years it got “regular-groupitis”.

AAJ: But even within those parameters, the people you have played with are from a far wider spectrum than anyone else I can think of - drum’n’bass with DJ Ninj, Japanese rock with The Ruins, and then the pi’pa at the other extreme.

DB: I do find it stimulating to work like that, particularly over the last few years, because of this mutual acceptance in freely improvised music. It has settled down. There are still some great players and people to play with; probably the best thing is to play with another free improviser, but with this other stuff, you actually learn something or I feel I learn something, but I have vast reservoirs of ignorance to chip away at! For instance, to work with Jamaaladeen Tacuma and Calvin Weston was really revealing to me. They are such good musicians to start with, and they are so sharp and reactive. They weren’t going to be thrown by what I did. Jamaal knew what I did but Calvin didn’t necessarily. I did a gig playing duo with Calvin that was very nice. But they’ve got a particular area; for years they have worked as this free funk rhythm section with all kinds of people. The only person I have played with regularly in recent times is Susie Ibarra, who I’ve played with maybe twice a year over the last three or four years. I’ve played with her twice so far this year and we should play again in December. Playing three times in a year, I’ve not done that with anyone for years. But I do get a lot of enjoyment playing with her, I must say. Unfamiliar other people are vital as far as I’m concerned. It just seems to make sense if you are going to work in this area of music.

AAJ: Are there future collaborations that you are looking towards? Are you proactive or reactive?

DB: I am reactive. One of the people who has really been helpful in recent years is Zorn. The Ruins was suggested by Zorn. And Min Xiao-Fen was Zorn’s idea. The first time we played together was when we made that duo record. She was terrified of making a freely improvised record, she didn’t think it was possible. So sometimes I suggest things to people or I put them together when I’ve got a chance to invite people. This electronics guy I’m playing with in LA, Casey Rice, I like what he does. I’m not much into current electronic stuff, what I think of as lounge electronics, mumbling electronics. He’s not quite like that. I don’t know what Casey is. I’ve yet to find out exactly. He’s not a performer. He’s the sound-man for Tortoise. That’s his job. But I made a record, at somebody’s invitation, for a label called Bingo, which is called Playbacks and the idea of his was that the guy who set it up invited different people to send in tracks and I played with them. It was ostensibly, I suppose, a drum’n’bass record. It didn’t turn out like that, although there was some drum’n’bass. Groups sent in tracks; there was a very nice group called Tied and Tickled – have you ever heard of that group? – I think they are a German group. So this guy drummed up a dozen pieces from different people. I liked all of it. But there was a track from this guy Casey Rice who lives in Chicago, and I liked it very much, so I have tried to engineer it to play with him. When I get a gig that is more in his area, I invite him. Sometimes he can’t make it, this one he can make. We’ll see what happens.

AAJ: Going into a situation like that, how much would you research what he is about?

DB: I don’t research anything. I just know that we have played together before; we have done one gig, which is interesting because he doesn’t perform. He won’t sit on the stage, he sits out of sight somewhere and he also treats my stuff. That is interesting because as far as the audience is concerned, they think I’m doing it all. But in recent times, a lot of it comes through Zorn; he suggested Jamaal and Calvin, for instance. But I have suggested things when people have asked me, and they are not that keen, actually. Some of the records I make are just people approaching me about making a record; for instance, there is a whole bunch of electronic guys in Vienna who produce this whispering, and one of the trumpet players, Franz Hausinger, asked me to make a record with him, which I did. That was an unusual playing experience. Someone in New York asked me about making a record, and I said I thought it might be interesting to play with Wynton Marsalis’s rhythm section. (Laughs) I don’t know how far they tried to take this, but it didn’t get anywhere.

AAJ: Where you surprised?!

DB: No, but I thought it might be interesting just to poke that area and see what came out of it. You never know. If the guy had got some money, they might just want to do it. Usually the things I suggest don’t get very far, I have to admit.

Next month: Preview of the London Jazz Festival and Part 2-3 of this interview.

Since this interview, "All Tomorrow's Parties" has been cancelled. Instead, Derek Bailey will now appear with George Lewis at Spruce Street Forum, 301 Spruce Street, San Diego on October 20th, and with Company at Rocco's Jazz Club, Los Angeles, on October 25th, 26th & 27th. He will appear at the Chicago Museum of Modern Photography with Casey Rice on November 1st.