A Talk with Dr. Larry Ross

The history of jazz has been told, re-told, written, re-written, presented and re-presented ad nauseum. An often revisionist chronicle of jazz neglecting certain aspects and exaggerating others has overwhelmed the amassing literature. With African-American Jazz Musicians in the Diaspora, Dr. Larry Ross a trained anthropologist but more importantly a skilled, seasoned, award-winning musician aims to set the record straight. In this timely text, Dr. Ross examines "some of the cultural and microeconomic externalities that contributed to the migration trends of African American jazz musicians" (p. 11). Through years of research, Dr. Ross brings a refreshing account of the historical and cultural significance of the innovations of numerous African American jazz musicians throughout the Diaspora. Interesting discussions on race, migration patterns, culture, class and aesthetics in addition to interesting facts make African-American Jazz Musicians in the Diaspora a unique and personal analysis worth reading.

I had the pleasure to have a conversation with Dr. Larry Ross about the book.

All About Jazz: The book is excellent, it was cutting-edge, abrupt and in-your-face at times yet extremely informative. A lot of the dialogue on race, class, culture and aesthetics is very intriguing.

Dr. Larry Ross: I'm so glad you recognized all of the things that I wanted recognized in this particular work. I approached all of the things that I felt were missing, left out or glossed over in other works.

AAJ: In your opinion what is the strongest aspect of the book?

LR: I would say, a deconstruction of the concept of race upon which everything else flows, and that is what people do not know and would not know unless they had anthropological training. Even some people with anthropological training don't know it because there are so few people of color in anthropology and the subject of jazz is not of interest to most of them.

AAJ: How has race been used to devalue, underrate, or diffuse the power of jazz?

LR: This is a great question because it brings into question aesthetic philosophy which is very stratified. If it was the product of a Negro, then, the thinking is, it couldn't possibly be of any worth. That philosophy underlies all of the disparity in the social, political, economic and cultural realm. This is why John Philip Sousa's comment that the Negro musician who wrote "Turkey in the Straw" was a genius, is so interesting. Sousa said that. But of course he was attacked by his peers for using and approving of jazz -the music of Negroes; Antonín Dvorzák, who was also attacked by his peers. As far as the aesthetic is concerned if it involved the Negro or something of African descent, it had to be inferior. This is the underlying thinking. When people start talking about aesthetic then they bring all of that baggage into their thinking, and then when they try to talk about a Black aesthetic they are using that stratified system and trying to be part of the colonial machinery instead of having self-determination and rejecting it all together.

AAJ: What do you find about the book is most controversial?

LR: It would be controversial if the documentation did not support everything that I say. I don't think that there is anything controversial in the book because the documentation is staring everyone in the face; whether they actually engage it or not is the question.

AAJ: There is a phrase, Jazz: America's Classical Music and there is a phrase, Jazz: America's rare and valuable treasure. What's the difference?

LR: I think rare and valuable treasure is certainly appropriate; classical again places it into the aesthetic. Now the term classic comes from classicus which is something that the Romans used to talk about the army and the top officers. Also there is another problem with the term classic. It collapses Greek and Roman philosophy, culture, architecture and everything else when in fact these people actually hated each other so much. That is why Julius Caesar was probably murdered rather than have this Greek queen Cleopatra be on the throne of Rome. The concept of classic is a real corruption of the historic and cultural fact in of itself. But at the same time it is used to say that this is the height, a fine art. It is neo-classical reaching back to the supposed ancestors in Greece and Rome and this romantic idea that Europeans have regarding culture. Classic itself is problematic and people need to look into that. Besides, Jazz can stand on its own, it doesn't need the validation of being classical. Why does it have to be classical in order to be good, in order to have value or in order to have merit. It seems that some people feel that the music is not worth anything unless it measures up to the standards of classical, and to most classical musicians or aficionados, the only music is classical. Many of them would not dare listen to or play jazz, it is seen as an abomination. Jazz is one of a few cultural products produced by the African experience in America. This is irrefutable, although numerous people have attempted to say otherwise and deconstruct history. The documentation is all there and still people would say otherwise. I am not against classical music, I have enjoyed classical music for over forty years, but I can say it is not the only music.

AAJ: How do you address the differences between the treatment of jazz in the US versus the treatment of jazz in the Diaspora?

LR: In the Diaspora, they have moved beyond a lot of the foolishness of the 16th and 17th centuries, yet in America because of the "cultural colonialism" that [Lawrence] Levin writes about, there is a disconnect, the United States is decades or perhaps a couple of centuries behind. For instance in the 1920s American millionaires and billionaires were importing everything they could from Europe. They did not have a culture of their own. Now the problem is they were born in America so they didn't know much about European culture except for what they read or perhaps they took a few trips or so. This is similar to the philosophers who created aesthetics in Germany and were talking about the ancient Greeks. Well, there's no connection between the Germans and the Ancient Greeks because to the Ancient Greeks the Germans were barbaric, so they got in wrong in the 18th century, especially with the aesthetics where buildings are concerned. All of these white marble buildings would have been abominable because the Ancient Greeks painted everything in natural colors. But the Germans didn't know that. These are some of the problems that call forth the need for historians, anthropologists and political scientists to uncover the misrepresentations that can take place over thousands of years. So that's what we end up seeing. But it is good to find out what the real answer and real underlying problems are. The reasons why the Americans accepted this racial hierarchy and folk taxonomy, to get back to your question, it was great for their economy, the longer they can keep the scam going, the better privileges they figured they would have because they saw themselves as better people; while in Europe they did not have the slave trade as they did here. There was slavery in Europe, especially in Portugal but it wasn't the same type of agrarian system as we had here.

AAJ: In the final chapter of the book, "Jazz: Its Past, its Present, and its Future?" you make a number of interesting statements, you suggest that jazz does not exist apart from those who create it, you also say that it is very difficult if not impossible to succinctly define what jazz is, then you make the statement that one thing that jazz is, is the mastery of standards.

LR: I would say that if there was one thing that we can say that is jazz, is the mastery of standards is part of the tradition. For example if you listen to [Art] Tatum do "Tea For Two" and then you listen to Fats Waller do "Tea for Two" and then you hear someone like Tommy Flanagan, they are all doing these standards and man do they do them. This is the tradition. You listen to Tatum do "Body and Soul," then you listen to Coltrane do "Body and Soul." This is the tradition. Those standards are the music. They are forever young. These standards also reveal the history of the times. The musicians who composed these songs were reflecting the times. The music is a political, social, economic and cultural critique and/ or commentary.

AAJ: You have a website that complements the book rather well.

LR: Yes, I developed the website to give people a little more information about what is in the book. The URL is drlarryross.org/ . It also shows where the book is available (worldwide).

AAJ: Any parting words for the All About Jazz community?

LR: Well, I came across the site and I think it is phenomenal. It is something we did not have a few decades ago and now that we have it as a resource I think it certainly enhances peoples access to information about jazz and I think it does a fantastic job and I am really happy to participate in the interview, and I hope the readers from the site are able to glean something from this work that I produced, and I hope that it will be a contribution to the literature on jazz.

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